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I do like his programmes
I wish he'd stop talking like he's a children's tv presenter though
@chewkw Apologies - I now get your points and your last post was very pertinent.
As much as I love Greece and feel desperately sorry for their situation I will not be visiting again any time soon.
The bit about the bear had me in tears. The corruption breaks my heart. I will not support their tourist industry any more as they need a bloody good lesson in sorting things out: maybe being run by Germany would be a good thing for them this time. They took money from the EU under false pretences and should be made to pay.
Sad for the lovely people who need to make a living there, though - and we've met loads of those.
Genuinely shocked at their level of spending on military. The whole country seems a shambles
JulianA - Member
@chewkw Apologies - I now get your points and your last post was very pertinent.
No biggie. 😀
I stopped listening/watching for a short moment when I saw the bear ... coz my blood started to boil. Actually my blood was boiling and smoke was already coming out from my nostrils ... 😡
No god or human can change the Greek if they do not want to change themselves. The Greek need to wake up quickly or slowly get wasted. They need to deal with corruption first then learn to comply with slight rigidity in life. i.e. comply with law ... notice the car seat belt culture? 😆
I respect the Orthodox Monks who are trying to live at peace amongst themselves. Nice people who are brave enough to take that path. Pity they are seen as outcast as I do not see them doing any harm to anyone just because they do not want to become part of a big umbrella religious authority ...
Sad for the lovely people who need to make a living there, though - and we've met loads of those.
My Greek friends like to argue very much ... coz you know they have Aristotle, Plato etc ... but they are generally nice people if you are not offended by their argumentative nature. I like to wind them up a bit by saying the Turks are coming to take their olive farms then they have to use hydrogenated palm oil ... 😆
Damn! I love to drink Southern Greek olive oil ... yes, I normally drink a spoonful of that thing!
Pawsy_Bear - Member
Genuinely shocked at their level of spending on military. The whole country seems a shambles
Not much of a surprise if you have Greek friends coz they are all "army" and since they have the loose cannon Turkey as their neighbour they need that sort of spending otherwise they would be annexed.
Pawsy_Bear - MemberGenuinely shocked at their level of spending on military.
Greece's military spending is only a little above the minimum they're [i]required[/i] to spend as a NATO member. Until recent years they were literally one of the borders of Europe and the Soviet bloc. And they have a [i]kind of unfriendly[/i] relationship with their neighbour Turkey
But probably more important, much of that money goes to Germany, France and the UK. A cynical person might think there's a reason defence cuts are never mooted when the iron chanceller demands austerity packages, eh? Slash pensions while paying German companies 3 billion quid for submarines that don't work, that a former Greek minister was bribed to order...
But probably more important, much of that money goes to Germany, France and the UK. A cynical person might think there's a reason defence cuts are never mooted when the iron chanceller demands austerity packages, eh? Slash pensions while paying German companies 3 billion quid for submarines that don't work, that a former Greek minister was bribed to order...
Indeed - and Greece still waiting for the extradition of the Germans responsible for paying massive bribes. But being ruled by the Germans will "sort them out", eh? Really, you read some stupid comments on this forum but that wins a prize!
The claims about military spending don't seem to be supported by the dats
No getting away from the fact that they modern tanks I could see that and the submarines.
Crazy
170 Leopard 2A6
183 Leopard 2A4
501 Leopard 1A5/GR
390 M48A5 MOLF
70 M60A3 TTS
They then tried to buy more M1 A1 from US!
UK 227 Challenger
French Army has a total of 406 Leclerc
Yes, they have more tanks than France and UK
A country out of control
A country next to the Balkans and to Turkey, a powerful enemy, marginally democratic that violates their territory on a daily basis.
I'd dispute that Bulgaria, Albania or Macedonia are a real military threat at all and that Turkey isn't likely to invade another NATO member. Least of all Greece
I'd dispute that Bulgaria, Albania or Macedonia are a real military threat at all and that Turkey isn't likely to invade another NATO member. Least of all Greece
Because there have been no wars in the Balkans recently. NATO is not doing much for Greece to stop Turkish planes and ships violating Greek territory, or to stop them doing other stupid things like shooting down Russian planes or shelling Kurdish anti-ISIS fighters. The Greeks don't trust NATO and they sure as hell don't trust the Turks (who have about 4000 tanks, BTW).
Some points:
Can Greece afford all that kit? No.
Was there corruption involved in its purchase? Yes - Greek and German.
Are Germany and France helping? No - when Greece was told to reduce its military expenditure they tried to cancel contracts with France and Germany, but they were not allowed to do so, so they had to (retroactively) cut salaries. Cue massive vote for Golden Dawn by military personnel.
Is there history? Yes - after the fall of the Junta (supported by .. oh yes ... NATO "friends") the military were sweetened by lots of toys.
Do the Greeks need a strong military? You think not, but you don't live there.
From a purely military point having so many different types of tanks means huge training and logistic costs. All of which means less not more military capability only compounded by a conscript army
From a purely military point having so many different types of tanks means huge training and logistic costs. All of which means less not more military capability only compounded by a conscript army
No-one's pretending it's efficient. Just that it's somewhat understandable.
Another interesting programme. Loved the 'Rebel Monks' with their stills full of ouzo 😀
I'm trying to dig out the article that Paul Mason wrote about Greece. He'd worked out that the Greek railway system was so inefficient that it would actually be cheaper to get every rail passenger a taxi to their destination. The train drivers were on a salary of over 65,000 euros 😯 And people moan about what London tube drivers get paid
I think the article that everyone quotes was in Rolling Stone. Paul Mason usually has a more nuanced grasp of the situation.
DrJ - Member
Some points:
Can Greece afford all that kit? No.
Was there corruption involved in its purchase? Yes - Greek and German.
Are Germany and France helping? No - when Greece was told to reduce its military expenditure they tried to cancel contracts with France and Germany, but they were not allowed to do so, so they had to (retroactively) cut salaries. Cue massive vote for Golden Dawn by military personnel.
Is there history? Yes - after the fall of the Junta (supported by .. oh yes ... NATO "friends") the military were sweetened by lots of toys.
Do the Greeks need a strong military? You think not, but you don't live there.
Good points, well made.
Dr J - Paul Mason did point out that the country that is going to continue to be at the forefront of the refugee crisis is Greece. And that the rest of Europe is doing as little to support them, as they did during the Euro crisis.
Yet if it continues like this, all that this will lead to is the inevitable rise of Golden Dawn
DrJ - Member
Some points:
Can Greece afford all that kit? No.
Was there corruption involved in its purchase? Yes - Greek and German.
Are Germany and France helping? No - when Greece was told to reduce its military expenditure they tried to cancel contracts with France and Germany, but they were not allowed to do so, so they had to (retroactively) cut salaries. Cue massive vote for Golden Dawn by military personnel.
Is there history? Yes - after the fall of the Junta (supported by .. oh yes ... NATO "friends") the military were sweetened by lots of toys.
Do the Greeks need a strong military? You think not, but you don't live there.Good points, well made.
Corruption is an issue in Greece, endemic I'd say. Military purchases, don't think Greece was forced into it. As for contracts then defaulting well you will have to rely on more good will.
I don't live there but defence and economics is a global issue. This is forum where we can debate. The junta ended in the 70's some 40 odd years ago. Cant see the connection. But of course Cyprus hasn't been resolved.