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"Irrelevant if already knocked on by Evans, if we are using all available evidence."
True and its over and wasnt given. Just dont think what TJ is saying is right and it is a cast iron certainty that Watson did nit get their first like tge tmo said
I watched the disallowed try again, earlier and I think they made the right decision: Yes, Anscombe did touch the ball first, but he failed to put any downward pressure on it. In fact, the ball was rolling out of his fingers before it came in contact with the ground.
If the ball is on the floor and your fingers are on top of it thats downwards pressure surely. Irrelevant that some pressure is sideways...he didnt clearly knock it on. Had the video ref chosen his words and said Anscombe knocked it on then there would be less controversy. I am not really that bothered. A bunch of out classed kids pushed England all the way and in real time the first reaction is no try.
On looking back over the highlights I'm more annoyed that North didnt run a support line that would have blocked Underhill
you don't need downward pressure - all he needs is to be in contact with the ball as the ball is in contact with the ground. thats the lawbook nowadays
Its the hand rolling down the side of it that gives rise to the doubt small doubt but enough
Cipriani: well by French standards he’s reliable and disciplined 🙂
He’s been linked with Toulon for a long time although Lyon might be looking past Freddie M. Can’t see Stade taking him with Plisson and Stern
Anyway best of luck to him and she should take the money and maybe some sunshine, he was never going to be picked for England again as he has too many indiscretions topped by the drink driving (mind you that puts in the same club as Dan Carter)
U woz robbed A-A
we woz luckeee
"U woz robbed A-A
we woz luckeee"
Wrong as usual.
The laws refer to the "grounding" of the ball: This infers downward pressure, in my view. Either way. I don't think Anscombe "grounded" the ball.
So to move things on. Next round of games
Do Scotland have a chance? Can Toonie get Russells head back in the right place? Will we get Dunbar or Taylor back? How many tries will we score? 😉
Very interesting that Russell was subbed off with 15 mins to go. Thats the first time he has been subbed and the game was in the balance at that point. I suspect that will have been a sobering lesson to Russell. At his best he is sublime and one of the best in the world but we have not seen him in that mode this 6N. Missing those penalties to touch cost ( indirectly) 10 pts. I suspect Hogg might be taking the penalties to touch.
I thought Laidlaws time in a Scotland shirt was over but on the evidence of that game it is not. He was a big part of the win. Not so much the place kicking but his calmness. So I am sure he will start again
Having Berghan back was also a plus. He offers more in the loose and Scotland scrum stood up well both matches. We might get Fagerson back as well which would be good.
did Denton do enough to get a start or should he remain an impact sub? Our back row is missing heavyweight power runners. Watson is very elusive but at 16 stone will robshars enjoy just trowing him backwards or will Watsons trademark wuggle get him go foreward? He had a great game against France
I would say its going to be very hard to get the win. History is very much against us and England have been winning without playing particularly well although I thought Farrell was actually living up to the hype at times in the Welsh game and I was impressed with the speed the England forwards were coming on to the ball around the breakdown and that scares me. No more stodge from a standing start. England will play better this series I am sure - they must if they want the championship / Grand slam.
Breakdown will be fascinating again with Scotland going for turnovers. Will that force England to commit more men to the ruck? Will England simply let Scotland have the ball on their ball and fan out in defense? Quick ball is everything to Scotland especially at phase ball wide out.
Will England kick for touch or infield or will we see both teams running from deep?
Every single one of the Scotland team will have to be 100% and even then a win seems unlikely
It’s 2 weeks away, so almost anything could happen before then. However, since I enjoy trying to predict the scores:
France to beat Italy by 20- 30 pts
Ireland to beat Wales by 5-15 pts
Scotland will be lucky to not lose by as many points as last year, England to win by 25-35 pts
Looks like England will have Daly, Hughes, Marler & Haskell back for selection.
Away victories against Five nations teams will be at a premium like last year, Ireland have secured one so are in a strong position, Murrayfield won't be an easy trip for England, doable but no more.
Not convinced Haskell will be in the squad if fit.
Can anyone tell me what happened 45 seconds into the game? Hartley seems to be penalised for a no-armed tackle (resulting in his own HIA!). Did Wales really opt for a scrum rather than a reasonably easy 3 points or did the ref see an earlier knock-on?
Simmonds isn't likely to be fit for the trip to Murrayfield and had returned to Exeter for treatment so I guess Hughes will start so the Hask may well make the bench because he covers the entire back row. Hepburn has been dropped for Marler which is a big call because he didn't do anything wrong and Marler is a) a dick who can't be trusted and b) is shirt of match fitness.
Jones was apparently not impressed with Marler's latest van so I wonder if he's on his last strike? The guy is a buffoon who just can't help himself.
Looks like we're going to go with big ball carriers at pace again. Let's just hope we can keep it up for more than 20 minutes next tine! We're practicing scrums with Georgia so I guess we want a more set piece oriented game.
As I said last year, Russell needs to learn to temper the attacking flair and bring some control too. Playing lovely rugby is all well and good, but not if it's in your half. Laidlaw bought a huge amount of stability to Scotland that laid the foundation for seeing the game out in the last 15 minutes or so. Not flash, not pretty but effective. It's m sure Scotland will be up for it big time and it's going to be a bloody tough game.
Not talking about the Welsh 'try' any more. It wasn't given, suck it up and move on. No amount of bitching or dissecting videos will change the result.
Not talking about the Welsh ‘try’ any more. It wasn’t given, suck it up and move on. No amount of bitching or dissecting videos will change the result.
Pretty everyone I've talked to has said that it was the Welsh performance - poor kicking, etc - that let them down, not a poor TMO decision.
The interesting thing for me is that England looked very ragged toward the end but had imposed their own game plan on the Welsh for a big portion of the game. Does that mean that they aren't fit enough to play the game they want to play?
Fitness will be interesting aspect of the Calcutta cup game. Scotland pride themselves on being the fittest around and I note a few folk thought England were beginning to flag at the end of the welsh game whereas Scotland clearly were fitter than France.
will this be critical? If England try to keep the ball in play a lot will that suit Scotland? Will england move back to a more setpiece dominated game especially kicking for touch as Scotlands lineout has been easily read and not that secure?
IdleJon, that was a point I was trying to make - it appears not. One of the interviews with the Welsh players has the player stating that the English forwards were blowing. As I hinted at earlier, this is where NZ - and you have to look at them as the bench mark - finish people off and so we should have done with Wales. Herioc defense - well yes thats great but no points in the last hour is a travesty.
England are claiming Sam Moore as their own - he's been called up to the senior side.
Game plan for England is boot it to hogg then just shut down his space. Once he is negated the rest of the Scotland plan falls apart. On saturday he was being Billy big baws, the best kid on the pitch who wants the ball all the time, except he wasn't the best.
I spend every Scotland game with my feet twitching and decrying every slight opposition infringement but I just can't see the front row surviving the scrum and poor wee Hamish will just be bulldozed while gray waits for the play to come back to whereever on the pitch he is.
Oh and I'd knock Russells teeth sown his throat for that grin after each mistake (involuntary or not) what's wrong with putting your hand up to apologise?
"If England try to keep the ball in play a lot will that suit Scotland? "
England dont, they slow it down at every opportunity and kick to touch.
Wales choices for Dublin will be tough. We got rinsed under high kicks by England and Ireland will be at least as strong in this area. Bringing back 1/2p, Liam and Biggar would tip that back in Wales favour. North could come back, Keet Earls and Karney are probably still having nightmares about last seasons game and trying to stop North.
I think Patch should keep 10 shirt for all the games if he stays fit.
"I just can’t see the front row surviving the scrum"
They did fine v wales and wales did fine v england ( wales had a hint if an edge if anything). Scrums have been good so far this six nations and not pen fests.
We were shagged by the end of that game but don't forget there had been a bit less prep / rest with us travelling back from Italy on the Monday.
Our scrum isn't that good and I doubt any of the teams in the 6N will be that worried about it - it's not the English weapon that it used to be; jeez even Australia weren't humiliated by it in the autumn.
Looking at the players retained, I think Jones will aim to slow the game down and bring big runners in and focus on line outs, scrums and mauls.
'Oh and I’d knock Russells teeth sown his throat for that grin after each mistake (involuntary or not) what’s wrong with putting your hand up to apologise?'
This massively - if I were a team mate, I'm not sure I'd be that happy.
I think the subbing of Russell - the first time he has been subbed apart from a few mins at the end of a game we have won already - will have quite a sobering effect on him. I also think Townsend gave him a chance to reedeem himself that he didn't really take. I very much doubt we will see the same mistakes again nd I think Hogg will take the touch kicks. I wouldn't be altogether surprised if Russell is on the bench with Horne at 10
World Rugby have confirmed that there was a temporary error on Saturday, and that Wales should have been awarded a try!
Speaking to reporters on Tuesday, Wales assistant coach Rob Howley said: "I know Warren Gatland spoke to Alain Rolland, and they confirmed that the TMO made a mistake."
This is the same Gatland that accused Jones of attempting to influence games/refs/players?
You still can't claim Wales won, as you cannot guarantee the kick would have gone over for the points needed, so its a moot point for that game.
All it now does is makes us all endure longer TMO replays as they all shit themselves over making a mistake.
Well that didnt work!!
Halfway down this page is the wobbly finger moment
I await TJ's explanation of why they are wrong.
"You still can’t claim Wales won, as you cannot guarantee the kick would have gone over for the points needed, "
Dont think anyone has, we've just been discussing if it was a try or not.
Wrong as usual.
in your own time AA 😉
All it now does is makes us all endure longer TMO replays as they all shit themselves over making a mistake.
It can't be a bad thing for the game to get rid of errors like this. TMOs have been guilty of the most ridiculous mistakes since they were introduced when the whole point of having them was to get rid of those errors. Either get rid of the TMO or use them properly and then we can watch the game and talk about who played well or poorly without having to watch endless slo-mo analysis of every play.
"in your own time AA 😉"
I hesitate to ask as I know explanation isnt your strong suit, but what you on about now?
Ashley Beck to Worcester..hope he can string some games together. Great player when fit.
He wasn't in control of the ball when it went down, it was close but no cigar.
It pains me to say that being Welsh, but fair is fair. That's my take on it.
Where does “control” come into it?
I'm not going to argue semantics, he happened to have a finger or two on the side of the ball, no downward pressure, no control, it had slipped out of his hands, no try.
Bloody unlucky and for me, bloody disappointed, but that's my view after watching the freeze frames.
But, all completely irrelevant, as Guscott & the BBC already proved it was a knock on by Evans. TMO wrong twice then. Still not a try.
Even then we are only talking a 2pt swing, as it was a really hard kick from the touch line, and they went back for a penalty anyway. 12-8. Still lost.
More Poaching
England have called up Sam Moore I see...
Denton leaving Worcester at the end of the season and being replaced by Du Preez. Weir may well be joining despite Cockers recalling him and stopping his short term loan.
Is that Moor who has represented England at U16, 17 18 19 20’s? And plays for Sale? And was schooled in England?
He wasn’t in control of the ball when it went down, it was close but no cigar.
It pains me to say that being Welsh, but fair is fair. That’s my take on it.
And this is where the confusion is. When you look at it a frame at a time, in one of the frames - possibly more than one - his finger is touching the ball. Now think of that in real time, its touching falling off the side, theres no control or evidence of downward pressure. However, Watson puts both hands firmly on the ball - a grounding.
Gatland has pressured one ref to disagree with another. Bad for Rugby, shame on Gatland as he had nothing to gain from it.
Is that Moor who has represented England at U16, 17 18 19 20’s? And plays for Sale? And was schooled in England?
No. Its Brian Moore.
"Is that Moor who has represented England at U16, 17 18 19 20’s? And plays for Sale? And was schooled in England?"
No its Moore who was born in Cardiff and whose dad and uncle played for Wales.
"Gatland has pressured one ref to disagree with another. Bad for Rugby, shame on Gatland as he had nothing to gain from it."
I'm glad to see its his fault. I was getting worried for a while as he hadnt done anything to annoy the Englishers. Oh and its not one ref disagreeing with another. One has you and TJ on their side too!
“Is that Moor who has represented England at U16, 17 18 19 20’s? And plays for Sale? And was schooled in England?”
So what though, George North was born in Kings Lynn, Falateau was born in Tonga, we had this discussion a few pages back. If you are eligible under the rules you are in for whoever wants you and whoever you want to be playing for. Moore must want to play for England who are ranked 2nd best in the world over wales 6th best in the world.
Moore must want to play for England.
From what I've read about him, I reckon this is the case.
It isn't like he had no choice? Unless Wales have not made him an offer anyway.
EG Why did Wales not call him up at the beginning of the 6 nations if they wanted him? He was not named on the England squad then, so they had the opportunity.
"If you are eligible under the rules you are in for whoever wants you and whoever you want to be playing for. "
In terms of British born players I agree and its just a rich opportunity for some gentle piss taking but the plundering of lesser Nations by the richer ones is a problem for world rugby imo.