Like this? God no.
I sadly have, might be why we have different opinions. You’re not in a position to state whether that kick was or wasn’t instinctive either. Thing move very quickly in the heat of the moment.
I’m not making judgement on the overall situation. Just highlighting that after attacking armed police, getting a kick isn’t that bad. In a lot of other counties he would be dead.
I'm wandering if TikTok influencing solicitor hasn't had a whisper in his shell from the Law Society about his media reaction without viewing more of the evidence.
I certainly won't hire him now.
The lawyer comes across really poorly when interviewed.
Watching the full video, those lads are obviously regularly using violence.
I feel more sympathy for the policeman now, his two female colleagues have been taken out of the picture and he's dealing with 2 violent thugs, who know how to handle themselves and are possibly up to their eyeballs in coke, judging by their immediate violent reactions.
He was wrong in what he did though and he should face the consequences but I now hope he doesn't get the sack.
I sadly have, might be why we have different opinions. You’re not in a position to state whether that kick was or wasn’t instinctive either. Thing move very quickly in the heat of the moment.
Opinions is the operative word there. Instinctive is quick, without thought - this guy was bowled over by a tasered suspect (said taser fired and clicking away right by his head), got up from the floor, drew down on the motionless suspect with his own taser, paused, kicked then stamped the prone suspect's head. That for me is not instinctive, it's red mist "you bastard" retribution. Your opinion differs, and that's fine - we can have different opinions.
I’m not making judgement on the overall situation. Just highlighting that after attacking armed police, getting a kick isn’t that bad. In a lot of other counties he would be dead.
Armed police who just grabbed him from behind. Did they announce their presence? Did he know who they were? Is he himself already angry and tense after a previous confontation? Lots of talk about him attacking armed police - looks to me like two of the three he hit engaged him first, and the only one he attacked was the one pointing a weapon at his brother (the guy who subsequently kicked him in the head, I think). Just as I don't believe the police officer should be excused because he got hit, there's no excuse for the suspect to be fighting with the police, but if there are calls to understand the policeman's motives in light of this most recent video, it would be hypocritical and counterproductive not to do the same for the suspect.
"Scrote", I think, is pretty judgemental.
I was very critical of the police action after seeing the initial mobile footage. Once you see the full incident a few things stand out
2 people who went from 0-100 in seconds
2 people who were not afraid to use extreme violence against the police
2 people who were clearly trained in combat, likely boxing, and extremely strong and capable
They had incapacitated members of the police group who were now taken out of the situation and we're no help to the remaining officers
They were attacking the officers from all sides
The officers were surrounded by a mob with no idea if they would join in
The officers were likely reluctant to go to ground to control the suspects in case of more attacks from behind etc.
The kick was delivered at the height of the chaos, not after the situation had calmed down. Man on the ground still posed a huge threat
A hellish situation to be in. I suspect the officer will lose their job, but given everything that was happening, a kick to the head wasn't unreasonable to ensure a serious threat to their safety was subdued. It's not pretty, but if he'd kneeled on his back and delivered punches to the head to subdue him, it wouldn't be nearly as controversial. Head kicks carry huge shock value.
Not kick the incapacitated subject in the head. I think a different officer already has a taser in the suspect.
It was a rhetorical question framed to make people consider the circumstances a little more before passing judgement, however as you’ve answered it by something you “think” might have happened then avoided the actual question of what he SHOULD do… have another go - tell people what he should’ve done.
He’s lying face down on the floor, you’ll know much better than me but is a kick to the head of a prone suspect a trained method of detention?
No but watching on the internet I’ve got no idea the fear that officer is feeling. That whole situation went downhill very quickly, meaning they could very well have been fearing for their life. Find yourself in that situation and then tell me how coherent your thoughts were; tell me how you weren’t scared to death and used whatever home office approved techniques you could remember from your 2 days per year training package.
Again, the suspect is tased, prone and motionless
No he isn’t; you can see he starts moving again. We don’t how or why, he might be about to say sorry mate I was out of order, or he may have been about to start swinging again. We don’t know; It is the perception of that officer that is key here, but if he has an honestly held belief that the prostrate male was about to unleash violence again, then what is he to do.
Look, I cannot say what I would do in those circumstances. It went horribly wrong horribly quick and no amount of training gets a police officer used to that; because it’s very rare and impossible to cover in a lesson.
In the UK the Public rely on the Police but equally the Police rely on the Public. Peel had it right many years ago when he wrote words to the effect: The public are the police & the police are the public, the only distinction being that the Police are paid to maintain public order as a professional role in society”. This is at the very core of the principles of policing by consent.
It confers an equal level of responsibility on the public to maintain law and order because it is in the overall benefit to society that we do this.
This seems to have been forgotten over time, and here we are.
I certainly won’t hire him now.
Well he got within three and a half thousand votes of representing 80 odd thousand people in Westminster so that's a small positive.
Yeah I think a reprimand at best.
If you freeze frame the vid, you can see as the thug in the sky blue top is going for the officers pistol, his hand is right there as the pair hit the deck and roll.
The officer gets back to his feet, and sky blue is tazed, but rolls that arm under his body... the officer who kicked him in the head doesn't know sky blue has been tazed at this point, of if he has his gun, so he immedialty kicks him in the head.
Bare in mind the officer doesn't have the luxury of taking stock of his surroundings, and seeing what he's just seen, I think his duty to protect the public and his colleagues fully justifies his actions.
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“Scrote”, I think, is pretty judgemental.
Normal people don't attack other people in a plane, normal people don't go full onto into smashing cops in the face. Normal people in that situation might turn around a bit angrily when accosted from behind by armed police but immediately upon realising who they are dealing with with become submissive. Only people used to using violence would do so in a situation like that.
I think there's more than enough evidence now to make some sort of judgment about the perpetrators in this case, so calling them scrotes is judgmental, and in my opinion valid, would you prefer feral, thugs? Their behaviour was at extreme odds as to what we expect in our society, and then they doubled down with the social media.
Turns out their equally unappealing solicitor is already being investigated by the law society for instigating a racist and unfounded social media pile on in Birmingham.
Pondo (and others crticising the officer). First released video and most people would entirely agree with you. Now we have more context (maybe not all but enough), you're entirely wrong to keep harping on about a defenceless 'victim'.
You talk of protocol and higher standards, how do you think these officers are trained? Do you think they get meatheads off the street to smack them and their colleagues in the face and head multiple times and then get them to write a paper about correct reactions?! These officers were defending themselves from a cowardly attack (how many punches were thrown to the back of the officers heads) and would have been dazed and fearful for their own safety.
The "what me gov?" bloke on the bench that looked innocent as pie in the first video had just seconds earlier beat the crap out of police officers by reigning in cowardly punches from behind. They were dealt with instinctively, text books mean nothing in those situations.
Normal people don’t attack other people in a plane
I thought they weren't on a plane and it was their mum had been getting racially abused on a flight?
The reason for the arrest was because these two chaps decided to deal with the folk dishing out the racist abuse themselves. If the video is anything to go by they probably dealt with the racist abusers quite efficiently.
If that is what actually happened I can understand why they would have gone straight back to swinging when the police attempted to arrest them. Adrenaline was probably still very high and anyone who has ever found themselves in a fight knows that it doesn't take much to set you off again.
If anything I think this episode shows that using armed officers to arrest people who are unarmed isn't the best idea. Unless you are going to go the American route of standing well back and threatening to shoot them if they don't do exactly what you say. Or just shoot them.
I've never understood why airports need so many people wandering around with machine guns. In my opinion this episode perfectly illustrates why it's a bad idea.
If anything I think this episode shows that using armed officers to arrest people who are unarmed isn’t the best idea.
Maybe not in a perfect, polite society, but this is in an airport.. are you suggesting airports shouldn't have armed police?
I’ve never understood why airports need so many people wandering around with machine guns.
Are you new to planet earth? also they were not machine guns, they were holstered pistols. As others have said, if you try that crap in many other countries, you'd be lucky to walk away from it.
It was a rhetorical question framed to make people consider the circumstances a little more before passing judgement, however as you’ve answered it by something you “think” might have happened then avoided the actual question of what he SHOULD do… have another go – tell people what he should’ve done.
Well, for about five seconds the suspect stopped fighting, went rigid, motionless and fell over, so it seems reasonable to assume he was tased. The only judgement I'm making is whether or not the officer was justified in kicking the suspect in the head - I think no, you may disagree and that's fine.
No he isn’t; you can see he starts moving again.
Again, are people watching a different video? For clarity, I'm referring to the CCTV video most recently posted to the thread -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3gekjyq3j7o
Maybe it's my eyes but for me, from the moment the suspect is face down on the ground, the only movement I see is a slump, presumably his body relaxing as the taser is turned off and a turn of his head to the right. What other movement are you seeing?
I totally get the fear thing, I really do, I know I can't get anywhere near putting myself in his plase, and I have both empathy and understanding for his reaction. But the fact remains - it was the wrong reaction.
Ok, I guess I am new to planet earth. Why do airports need so many people with guns?
Seems to me an airport is one of those places you are highly unlikely to come across a criminal with a gun compared to literally anywhere else.
I’ve never understood why airports need so many people wandering around with machine guns. In my opinion this episode perfectly illustrates why it’s a bad idea.
why? No one got shot.
Even if they’d not been armed they would still have arrested the people fighting, who would then have started fighting with the police.
if you start a fight in such a public place, you are unlikely to get away with it. If they wanted to hit the sons of the racism woman, they should have played it a bit smarter.
Did this all happen in arrivals or departures?
a turn of his head to the right
Given what he's just done, if I'm at the end of his wrath, I wouldn't feel safe until he was unconscious or in handcuffs
A man whose instant reaction to the police was extreme violence
If you freeze frame the vid, you can see as the thug in the sky blue top is going for the officers pistol, his hand is right there as the pair hit the deck and roll.
At that point the suspect has fallen to the floor because he's been tased, he couldn't have made a controlled movement if he'd wanted to - he attacked the same officer from behind and had a very genuine opportunity to reach for his sidearm and did not.
The officer gets back to his feet, and sky blue is tazed, but rolls that arm under his body… the officer who kicked him in the head doesn’t know sky blue has been tazed at this point, of if he has his gun, so he immedialty kicks him in the head.
The taser that was fired was right by his head and clicking away as he scrambled away, stood up and drew down with his own taser. Both of the suspect's arms were by his sides and he did not "immediately" kick the suspect in the head.
These officers will all have had bodycams, right? I guess the investigation will learn still more from them.
why? No one got shot
But apparently the only reason was because the policeman managed to get a boot to the guys head.
Others have said blue tracksuit guy was reaching for the gun just as he was getting tasered.
Personally I wouldn't like to see armed police breaking up drunken fights on a Saturday night. Seems like that could get a bit too interesting.
To paraphrase Andy Burnham, this was a shitshow. The only question is was it a shitshow because procedures weren't followed or was it because the procedures aren't fit for purpose.
I definitely have sympathy for the copper who put the boot in. I think the question that really needs to be answered is how did he find himself in that situation.
... you’re entirely wrong to keep harping on about a defenceless ‘victim’.
My argument is and always has been that the officer was wrong to kick the suspect in the head. Apologies if you think I'm arguing something different - I was under the impression initially that the suspects had nothing to do with the altercation, but the CCTV footage released yesterday clearly shows that not to be the case and I haven't argued it since.
I'm getting fed up of saying I have empathy and understanding for the officer, I just think he was wrong.
At that point the suspect has fallen to the floor because he’s been tased, he couldn’t have made a controlled movement if he’d wanted to
The officer couldn't have known that, all he knows is his colleagues more than have thier hands full, and he might be on his own, he's been punched in the back of the head a few times, and they both wrestled to the floor with the assailants hand on his waist/holster.
So he gets up and boots him one as soon as he's able... what else you have him do?
I’m pretty certain the threat was still there when the man was on the floor! If he’s launched an attack against armed police, I’m guessing he would think nothing of attempting to take one of the officers down from the floor. The police reaction seems justified in this situation.
Given what he’s just done, if I’m at the end of his wrath, I wouldn’t feel safe until he was unconscious or in handcuffs
Sound - then cuff him. He's pretty motionless anyway but if you think he's going to be a problem, tase him again, or kneel on the back of his neck and he ain't going nowhere. The officer did indeed kneel on his back after kicking him, then left him uncuffed to go and get his brother on the floor. Gave him a kick as the brother was lying down, too.
I thought they weren’t on a plane and it was their mum had been getting racially abused on a flight?
I think you might be right there, however we have no details of the alleged incident or that it was racially motivated. Given the subsequent behaviour trying to turn the police incident into a racist incident would make me question how reliable anything the family say. Regardless of what happened on the plane that does not not justify the brothers attacking another member of the public, there's no ambiguity to that.
I can understand why they would have gone straight back to swinging when the police attempted to arrest them. Adrenaline was probably still very high and anyone who has ever found themselves in a fight knows that it doesn’t take much to set you off again.
Oh that's OK then, explains it all.....that's zero excuse for what they did.
Please stop trying to justify the indefensible. The actions of the officer are less clear cut and nowhere near the magnitude of what the instigators of all this did.
The officer couldn’t have known that, all he knows is his colleagues more than have thier hands full, and he might be on his own, he’s been punched in the back of the head a few times, and they both wrestled to the floor with the assailants hand on his waist/holster.
So he gets up and boots him one as soon as he’s able… what else you have him do?
It's about five seconds from the "attempted grab" to the hoof in the face and for most of that the officer is on his feet pointing his taser at the suspect. By no means did he boot him as soon as he was able, and he doesn't go for the arm that made the "attempted grab".
Sound – then cuff him.
Ah yes, because their initial response to the police was extremely compliant
I’m pretty certain the threat was still there when the man was on the floor! If he’s launched an attack against armed police, I’m guessing he would think nothing of attempting to take one of the officers down from the floor. The police reaction seems justified in this situation
I've made this point more than once but the suspect made no move whilst on the floor that could be seen as threatening, he had already been tased once and the officer who kicked him also had his taser aimed at him.
And for both sides of the argument, remember we're sitting here rewatching the incidents in slow motion, playing out scenarios in our heads and pretending we'd be as cool, calm and collected as James Bond in that situation
I think arguing about the minutia of second by second decisions is kind of pointless.
I think the bigger question is, was this the correct way to go about arresting someone in this kind of situation?
I'd argue that by the time the guy got booted in the head, so many other things had already gone seriously wrong that it's almost an irrelevancy.
The question is, is this the way armed police normally go about arresting someone who has just been in a fight and is presumably still primed to start swinging, not to mention the fact he's apparently got some mates with him?
As others have said, there seems to have been a genuine risk of police officers losing their weapons. To me that's the most serious issue by far. The guy getting booted in the head is a side effect of the real issue which is armed police completely losing control of the situation.
The question is, is this the way armed police normally go about arresting someone who has just been in a fight
It looks as though they were at the pay station for the car park, therefore about to leave the area. Likely the armed police were closest to them at that time and had to respond rather than wait for an unarmed officer
Ah yes, because their initial response to the police was extremely compliant
He's lying face down in the aftermath of a good tasering. When's a better time? 🙂
One thought that occurs is that the brother goes from full-on swinging in a fury to compliant, sits down and puts his hands on his head in moments - I do wonder if they knew they were police.
And for both sides of the argument, remember we’re sitting here rewatching the incidents in slow motion, playing out scenarios in our heads and pretending we’d be as cool, calm and collected as James Bond in that situation
Totally agree.
And for both sides of the argument, remember we’re sitting here rewatching the incidents in slow motion, playing out scenarios in our heads and pretending we’d be as cool, calm and collected as James Bond in that situation
I’d be curled up in a ball, crying
Oh that’s OK then, explains it all…..that’s zero excuse for what they did.
Please stop trying to justify the indefensible. The actions of the officer are less clear cut and nowhere near the magnitude of what the instigators of all this did.
I think what you want me to be saying is not what I'm actually saying. Sorry about that.
It's not a question of who is morally justified. It's a question of how armed police managed to lose control of the situation so completely.
Was it a failure if individual officers or was it a failure of procedures?
Taking a step back and looking at the entire incident, can anyone really say the police managed it properly?
The question is then how did things go so wrong and what should be done differently in the future. However, I suspect everyone is going to end up focussing on whether the guy deserved a boot to the head or not.
Well, for about five seconds the suspect stopped fighting, went rigid, motionless and fell over, so it seems reasonable to assume he was tased. The only judgement I’m making is whether or not the officer was justified in kicking the suspect in the head – I think no, you may disagree and that’s fine.
The point I’m trying to make to you is that you’re making a judgement, telling us what you wouldn’t do, telling us what you think is justified in those circumstances whilst only being party to what is no doubt a very small snippet of information.
But the fact remains – it was the wrong reaction.
No, the fact doesn’t remain. You’re presenting your opinion and judgements as fact, but they’re not facts. He made A reaction; whether that was the correct reaction or not remains to be seen. You’ve got an opinion, that’s fine but stop acting like your opinions are facts.
Race clearly had no part in it but he decided to stir it and the local community
Given the fact the thing that kicked all this off was someone's mum getting racially abused on a flight (allegedly), I think it's too early to say race has nothing to do with it.
While I'm often skeptical when people are too quick to claim racist motives I'm equally skeptical of people who seem a bit too keen on dismissing any potentially racist motives.
The question is then how did things go so wrong and what should be done differently in the future.
In retrospect, given the small number of officers that were immidiatley on the scene, and given the way the passengers in question then acted...
..the only way to have contained it would have been to taze/batter the lot of them before trying to arrest them.
Race clearly had no part in it
I've deliberately avoided mentioning race but just as a matter of interest, how have you made that determination?
The point I’m trying to make to you is that you’re making a judgement, telling us what you wouldn’t do, telling us what you think is justified in those circumstances whilst only being party to what is no doubt a very small snippet of information.
I fully recognise that point.
No, the fact doesn’t remain.... He made A reaction; whether that was the correct reaction or not remains to be seen.
Fair.
You’ve got an opinion, that’s fine but stop acting like your opinions are facts.
Happy to do that when everyone else does. 😉
In retrospect, given the small number of officers that were immidiatley on the scene, and given the way the passengers in question then acted…
..the only way to have contained it would have been to taze/batter the lot of them before trying to arrest them.
Yes, I'm sure the only two options available were to get into a massive brawl or just shoot them.
Battering them seems to be a non-starter.
Given the fact the thing that kicked all this off was someone’s mum getting racially abused on a flight (allegedly), I think it’s too early to say race has nothing to do with it.
Do you even know who made the "racially abused" comment? I certainly don't and if you do find out I would be genuinely interested in knowing.
As far as I can work out all four arrested were Asian so the chances are that the other party were also Asian. I don't know how common racists on flights from ****stan are but I suspect that they are probably less common than racists on flights from Majorca.
So imo it is too early to say that race probably had something to do with it
He’s using the Pondo defence, apparently the police kick is they thing to focus on.
What else is the thread about? No kick, no thread.
Holy cow, that's another level of crazy. It could still get more complicated if there's a further twist with the previous row. Still loads of questions for the policing of that whole situation for me but I don't think people will be losing sleep if Rooney gets away with that one.
He will be a hero in the eyes of many as will the fury brothers when they go down.
