The property tax holiday up to a £500k favours those who already own, who own high income to house value and encourages a rise of prices.
it encourages people with expensive houses to move house, granted, but given how housing chains work, that in turn benefits folks who have less money who are looking to buy their first house, as it gets the housing market going.
So large volume of savings and higher value of savings.
aren't there simply more people there too? What would you suggest they do for people who aren't currently paying stamp duty? give them cash just for buying a house?
The current tax changes are not aimed at driving equality. They are aimed at trying to stop the economy from collapsing post-covid. Naturally this will have a bigger impact on those who have more money to spend
The current tax changes are not aimed at driving equality. They are aimed at trying to stop the economy from collapsing post-covid
You're right, a good point.
I can't but help feel that the cost is (again) an increase of inequality.
I’ve never posted anything with a mildly party political party leaning here,
there is support out there for everyone –
away and bile yer heid. That's political right there...And clear bullshit.
Say I had no savings, how does 1400 over 3 months constitute support? It doesn't even cover my rent...
tell me, how would you live on that for 3 months? I'd like to hear how?
Ffs. Those of you quoting "higher savings in the SE" read MOABs post again.
Yes, i might "save" 10k rather than 5k on SD but my SE house costs me 200k more and the interest alone over 25yrs probably wipes that saving away. Also take into account as I said before, those targeting London in this argument conveniently forget the higher cost of living.
Tdlr its not the huge geographical privilege some people are trying to make out.
Personally I think that if they extended it to every single day it would be more successful
It'll never be successful because this isn't a real attempt at helping stuggling businesses. It's tokenism of the highest order so that the tories can say they provided support when in reality they didn't. What was required was a recognition of the scale of the economic meltdown and a massive economy-wide stimulus package which abandons conventional economics in order to avoid a depression and/or wholesale economic collapse. Instead we got discount vouchers and a vat cut.
It’ll never be successful because this isn’t a real attempt at helping stuggling businesses.
I tend to agree - I didn't say it WOULD be successful, I just think it would be MORE successful than trying to get people to go out on the nights that already always were quieter and discounted anyway. I honestly don't think that a single restaurant customer will be significantly better off than they would have been before had they used available promotions.
Regionalism and choice of eateries aside, are any of you seeing evidence that these measures are going over well with the public?
This is obviously a bit of an echo chamber, are we seeing evidence that the masses like the idea of a half price Nando’s (other restaurants are available) and not paying stamp duty (wherever they buy)?
Yes I am currently selling my house and buying one, the stamp duty will now pay for my solicitor fees.
I will also be eating out
are any of you seeing evidence that these measures are going over well with the public
I see little evidence that they are not. People are easily played.
Anyway, if you are forced to shut because of the virus (as many establishments have been here, never mind everything in Leicester) and you don’t have outlets in other parts of the country like the big brands, how does a VAT cut and a bribe for early week meals help you one jot? How is this gracious chancellor acting to help them?
And we haven’t gone anywhere near the ‘back of a fag packet’ £1000 hand out for keeping (some) staff on yet… probably the best example of Sunak having a good grasp of the political optics, and piss poor handle on what is actually needed over the next year to keep people in employment.
probably not the headline sunak wanted today & underlines that nandos vouchers are not enough
John Lewis and Boots to cut 5,300 jobs and shut shops
Maybe basing our economy on eating out, drinking, cheap fashion and living a Bourgeoise party lifestyle was a bad move in the first place? As a country we might be paying the price for that? Maybe we all need to grow up and actually produce something in the UK?
I see little evidence that they are not. People are easily played.
Yup. The bar is very low due to people being used to the government doing absolutely nothing. Instead of looking to France and Germany and asking 'why aren't they doing that here?', they look to the US and say 'thank god our government isn't as bad as them'. Tragically this won't hit home and public opinion won't change until it's too late and millions have lost their jobs. The UK is infected with a reactionary mindset. Instead of planning ahead and preventing crises, we do nothing out of blind hubris and ignorance, and then instigate panic measures when it all goes tits up. We get what we deserve.
public opinion won’t change until it’s too late and millions have lost their jobs
It’ll still be everyone else’s fault… teachers, nurses, care home staff, shop staff, pub staff, chefs, civil servants, opposition MPs, immigrants, judges, actors, footballers, the Scottish, the Irish, the unemployed themselves… everyone but those in charge. If they ever get back to cliched attacks on single mothers, you know we’ve got to the point where they just want to prove they can claim anything and get away with anything. They’ll probably save that one for 2024.
dougiedogg - the VAT reduction should be passed through to customers to drive footfall; service providers retaining the benefit, if they have too few customers, will do nothing to retain jobs.
lunge - my decades of dining out, both at my own cost and my employers' when working away, informed my post about average meals in average places.
You have a great imagination Kelvin
All the groups I listed will cop the blame from this government over this five year period. You can tick them off as you go along if you like. I’ve already ticked of this year’s scapegoat… teachers… all the others will happen as sure as night follows day. The government will do everything to shift the blame, you don’t need an imagination to see it happening right now.
to drive footfall
And those that can’t afford to operate at their new temporary max capacity? Or can’t or aren’t allowed to open at all? How are they helped? They need the virus under control, not bribes for customers to go to their competitors with more space and faster service.
Great idea and I hope it helps get people spending again.
Off course, on this forum it's nothing a but Tory nose rubbing and an insulting waste of time that will no doubt only benefit rich Tory voters with 3 homes and private caterers.
Great idea and I hope it helps get people spending again.
So you think we can avoid a depression/economic collapse by eating out more? See my comment above, you appear to be a classic example of what I was talking about.
its clearly led by a total lack of knowledge of the real situation with wealth in this country, It will clerly benefit the middle classes and the rich more than those who are poor. I don't thinnk its malicious tho - just ignorance and ideology
the sad thing is poor people spend a higher % of their money on stuff like food and clothes and power nd spend locally rather than going on holidays or tying the money up in bricks and motar- so giving all the money to the poor rather than the middle classes would have a far greater benefit to the economy. Double benefits, do nowt else would be much better
Great idea and I hope it helps get people spending again.
Off course, on this forum it’s nothing a but Tory nose rubbing and an insulting waste of time that will no doubt only benefit rich Tory voters with 3 homes and private caterers.
Yes, I think people forget its not the Torys putting people out of work, it's Covid 19 and the consequence of trying to mitigate it.
Double benefits, do nowt else would be much better
Yes, the rest of what you wrote, meh.
I think people forget its not the Torys putting people out of work, it’s Covid 19 and the consequence of trying to mitigate it.
Weird then that France and Germany are managing to protect jobs and mitigate the virus. I wonder what they know that our government doesn't? You seem to be suggesting that the government has no responsibility for or role in protecting people's livelihoods. Is that what you really think? Or is it that you just don't think it's possible, even though other governments are proving that it is? Like I said, we get the government we deserve.
A quick google shows our unemployment rate to be 3.9%
France at 8.2-8.6%
Germany at 5.2%
Whats your point?
You think France and Germany are keeping people in jobs better than the UK?
lol.
And no it won't save the economy but it's better than nothing and is a great message to people to get out and about and get back to a normal life as much as is possible.
Because you are comparing apples to oranges thats why.
Real UK unemployment is at least double that - and heading for 10 - 15 % even using the UK style e count.
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rishi-food-vouchers-and-vat/page/4/#post-11288771
I an not too worried if I am, and you are certainly an example of what I was talking about.
TJ. I'm sure it will rise by the same in similar countries (Germany/France) , its a global problem not just a Tory problem.
God this forum is shit.
Please explain how the **** I quote a message because nothing so far works, including the quote or reply icons
You think France and Germany are keeping people in jobs better than the UK?
What I think is irrelevant, the fact is that that they are. As TJ says you appear to have been fooled by the way the UK fiddles its unemployment figures.
Show us the proof of how you know that dazh? Also yes I don't think its possible to save every livelihood, I think the sad fact is that due to covid, certain industries are doomed regardless of any amount of propping up. We were oversaturated with food, beverage and clothing outlets anyway, it was a bloated economy to begin with.
And no it won’t save the economy but it’s better than nothing and is a great message to people to get out and about and get back to a normal life as much as is possible.
Well put. I think that is the underlying message, please go out and spend your money.
a great message to people to get out and about
Is that a great idea with this pandemic? I think a better solution would be to continue to support bars and restaurants so they can reopen when it is safe to do so (ie, continued business rate freeze, rent support, extended furlough terms for hospitality staff etc) rather than encouraging people to go out and increase the real risk of a second wave.
johndoh
Member
a great message to people to get out and aboutIs that a great idea with this pandemic?
Not really, no.
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The wee bump in deaths there is looking ominous...
poor people spend a higher % of their money on stuff like food and clothes and power nd spend locally
whilst that might be the case, they are often more conscious of price when they spend, as a result of which shop at cheaper places, who tend to source goods outside of the UK. I bet that, of the average pound spend in primark, a miniscule amount stays in the UK (for each item you're using, what, 1 minutes of a shop assistant's time, and maybe another 1.5 minutes of 'backroom' time, including the whole UK supply chain - so ~35p is staying in the uk) - the rest goes to shareholders or straight to whichever cheap country produces the goods. Conversely, a wealthy consumer may buy some hebden-sourced trousers from a physical store - probably keeping at least £50 in the UK
Best not compare us the the Mercans though - tell most of them not to slam their cock in a door and they would do it just to show that they Live In The Land of The Free.
God this forum is shit.
Please explain how the **** I quote a message because nothing so far works, including the quote or reply icons
Highlight and copy the text you want to quote. Press the B-QUOTE icon, paste the text, then press the B-QUOTE icon again.
johndoh
Member
Best not compare us the the Mercans though – tell most of them not to slam their cock in a door and they would do it just to show that they Live In The Land of The Free.
Not really comparing, just showing the obvious warning of what too much "normal" will mean.
Conversely, a wealthy consumer may buy some hebden-sourced trousers from a physical store – probably keeping at least £50 in the UK
Fkn hell! Are you trying to prove Kelvin right with his earlier comment? Blaming the poor for not supprting the UK economy by buying £120 trousers? Nice!
We were oversaturated with food, beverage and clothing outlets anyway, it was a bloated economy to begin with.
I see cruel and dystopian thatcherite economics is still alive and well. Of course the fact that millions will see their longterm employment prospects destroyed and be doomed to poverty and servitude, resulting in another lost generation is just collateral damage.
it was a bloated economy to begin with
Hmm… we only have a few pubs and restaurants here. All were busy and did a roaring trade. All are currently either shut or only have room for a few tables of customers at once. Nothing bloated.
I know it’s boring to keep pointing it out… but this rescue package is great for all the ‘Spoons outlets around the country, but is leaving many small indie and family run businesses to go out of business this year.
There is no bloat. There is a government looking after vested interest, not supporting the businesses that they are forcing to be either shut or running unprofitably at below normal capacity. Capacity that would be fully utilised if we got the virus under control, rather than doing these media management campaigning flawed economic interventions. People want their locals open and busy again, they don’t need financial motivations to go out, they need the virus under control so they can get on with doing so.
Yes Kelvin but there is a Pret on every corner in London and it seems that they are closing many now. Thats what I'm talking about, not the one pub and cafe in your village.
Dazh, I dont see how keeping these places open long term is compatible with risk mitigation, its an unfortunate consequence that many will lose jobs, Rishi Sunak should have strengthened the benefits system to look after these people, but thats a much harder calculation to make than just cutting vat.
I feel there are many, many people out there thinking the same as me... Sod going out for a meal, even a totally free one, when it's evident that we are still utterly unprepared to prevent a second spike/wave.
Ditto pubs.
People have realised that they can cook for themselves,they can entertain themselves and they dont need to fly to Magaluf for a stag do, unfortunately that means certain industries are goin to take a big hit regardless of Vat cuts
Blaming the poor for not supprting the UK economy by buying £120 trousers? Nice!
I'm not blaming anyone for anything, just pointing out fact. Those with more disposable income put significantly more money into the local economy, definitely in absolute terms, and probably in terms of income as well (until you get to the really high levels, anyway). Eating out is a good example - 90% of a restaurant bill probably goes back into the local economy, compared to very little if you buy a pack of pasta at asda.
I dont see how keeping these places open long term is compatible with risk mitigation, its an unfortunate consequence that many will lose jobs
The way to keep these places open and save millions of jobs is to get on top of the virus by eradicating it with a proper lockdown, then managing subsequent smaller isolated outbreaks with efficient testing and tracing and localised isolation and quarantines. But of course we haven't done that, because it's apparently too difficult or too expensive, even though many other countries have managed it.
You protect the economy by protecting people from the virus, not by encouraging them to go to the pub or a restaurant when the virus is still in circulation. The reason we are now facing a collapse in the hospitality sector and millions of job losses is because the government completely failed in its task to suppress the virus, and has now essentially given up on that. The result will be a growing second wave, with a collapsing economy to amplify it. This is going to spin out of control very quickly.
We cant do that anymore Dazh, people wont go for it, that ship has sailed.
The abundance of Prets wasn’t due to “bloat”, it was down to an eat at your desk culture. Working from home is killing Prets. The government isn’t going to save them with these measures either.
VAT change looks simple… but it’s really little help when the problem is that the virus hasn’t been controlled, not that prices are wrong.
We cant do that anymore Dazh
At some point we will have to. The economic damage of not doing so will bite harder and harder otherwise. I don’t expect the government to wake up to the fact ‘till the autumn. Which coincidently is when they are planning to have a proper track/trace/isolate procedure in place. Probably when we’ll finally get the contact tracing app to use as well. It’s not about what we need to do, it’s about why we haven’t already done it.
