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More cash - you are an educated white man in a liberal(ish) democracy. Its hardly the same.
you re not having your bodily autonomy violated. You are not being refused education. You are not being told what you can and cannot wear.
And as for the suffering caused by the religious attacks on dignity in dying - utterly foul.
The vast majority of people I have met who identify themselves as religious have had the most rigid and distorted views on how they, and others, should live their lives.
This is recognised with the 'religious belief exemptions' for such basic human rights: abortions; blood transfusions; wearing a helmet on a motorbike, and even vaccination for a deadly virus.
I think the blanket assertion that all religion is oppressive, regressive and controlling is the problem. I know a lot of religious people, I’ve been to a lot of religious services, I’ve never felt oppressed
Yeah but it's the usual thing of the majority of people are sensible and follow their religion with a balanced view. Those who take up arms in the name of religion are not so balanced in their outlook and often don't come from the Chipping Norton Parish Church, but some god forsaken hell hole in some obscure corner of the world where people have less than nothing. No life and no prospect of a better life and not control over their life...just a life of misery to look forward too. these people are easy fodder for those who are out to groom and brainwash with the promise of 21 virgins in Paradise.
Religion is a tool...that is why it was invented in the first place. To control people in an uncivilised time before there were any structured civilisations, rule of law and institutions that organise, manage and run our societies.
And we forget that religion doesn't just cause misery in war time, but in peace times too. Look at the Catholic doctrine of banning contraceptives, especially condoms. How many millions of lives have been ruined, how many people have died and how many unwanted babies have been brought into the world and into a life of poverty, disease and famine as a direct result of this evil 'instruction from God'? How many witches burned at the stake....how many homosexuals thrown off tall buildings? how many apostates killed? How many fathers and brothers have murdered their own daughters and sisters in honour killings? The death toll that has been amassed over time in the name of religion has not been limited to those lives lost in religiously motivated wars.
I've read that the AK 47 is the most lethal weapon man has ever invented...the reality is the most lethal weapon ever devised by man is religion.
the taliban banning womens education
I also saw a cyclist running a red light.
you re not having your bodily autonomy violated. You are not being refused education. You are not being told what you can and cannot wear.
Your logical fallacy here is the idea that none of this would happen if it weren't for religion.
The stated goals of Al Queada and IS are entirely religious.
Yes but why? And why don't all religions people do this? Why don't all Muslims do this?
Similarly, how come so many Christians are aresholes when Jesusnis very clear on not being an arsehole? And how come so many non religious people are good people? This is how we can prove that being an arsehole comes from somewhere else in humanity.
Suicide bombers really, truly believe they are going to nirvana.
Suicide bombing is just a choice of weapon. There'd still be violence if there weren't suicide bombers. This stinks of Islamophobia by the way.
Religion provides another opportunity to identify cultural differences. As does preferred football teams, skin colour, gender etc, etc.
As you go on to list many other differences I think you have shown that we don't need religion to discriminate. Which is my point.
Religeon is a foul regressive force.
You're citing a list of bad stuff people have done and associated with religion. Firstly, there is absolutely no evidence to say that they would not have done similar things without religion*; secondly you have completely and apparently wilfully ignored all the good stuff that religion does for people. When religious people have posted this out you've dismissed it as having no value. So your arguments are pretty weak from an intellectual point of view.
It's like seeing cyclists jumping red lights and then saying all cyclists jump red lights so they should be banned. You don't notice the ones that don't jump lights.
* In fact many of the things you point out are part ofmxuktural identity along with religion. Do Jews circumcise kids because the Bible tells them to? Or did they write that into the Bible because that's what Jews do?
Lip stretching is done in certain tribes because it is a mark of belonging to that tribe, not because it religions doctrine. So it happens for secular reasons too. You cannot therefore single out religious mutilation and ignore secular and use this as evidence for religion being bad.
The death toll that has been amassed over time in the name of religion
In the name of it, yes, but not because of it. If you think none of those things would have happened without religion then you have a very poor understanding of how people work!
Molgrips - stop inventing stuff you claim I have said
When religious people have posted this out you’ve dismissed it as having no value.
Balderdash and piffle.
When you see first hand as I have done the deep psychological harm done by religion and the suffering and torment it causes it makes one feel very strongly. Have you seen people die in fear and distress because they believe that their dying is because they did not believe enough? I have. ( if you want to know more about this PM me.)
Religion is medieval superstition used to control people - thats that top and bottom of it. anything else is a corollary - the main purpose of religion is to control and the attempts to control the secular stink
I will give them as much freedom to worship and they give me to be secular.
With that I step away from this thread - Brads was right in his comment
Let me put it another way. There are 2,400 Hindus in Northern Ireland. I don't recall seeing much anti-Hindu violence there, even though their beliefs are far more different than Protestants and Catholics. If the Troubles were religiously motivated wouldn't the IRA be against all non-Catholics?
Many Irish nationalists were protestant eg Wolf Tone and Parnell.
You need to untangle religion from national, racial identity..
Taiping Rebellion - religious, 20-70 million deaths. Religious start, inflaming racial tensions.
Oil
Oil and gas
Oil, gas, minerals
Oil, gas, minerals and water
Thats in history, now and in the future
Obvs not in pre industrial revolution times
I give this until lunchtime at the latest…
As long as that?
@molgrips shove the islamaphobia card up you arse. These people are literally telling you the answers to questions you ask and those answers are religious. But in the face of them telling you why they're doing what they're doing you seem to think that actually it's all a bluff and really they mean something else. Islam isn't a homogenous block, the particular beliefs underpinning violent extremism are not the majority but they do exist and deserve recognition and criticism. Just like it's possible for the worst head banging Christian cult to exist at the same time as Christianity, and criticism of the former does not necessarily reflect on the latter.
Religion is medieval superstition used to control people – thats that top and bottom of it
That's your view of it - other viewpoints exist. As @tomd has just pointed out the extremes only define the extremities, not the whole of the thing
Your logical fallacy here is the idea that none of this would happen if it weren’t for religion.
I think that's the point I was failing to make. I agree with all the points TJ was making in his reply to me, but I don't believe that all those terrible things would end if religion was banned. Human nature means some exploitative bastard would find some other reason to inflict misery on "others".
The fact that a lot of the reasons driving "religious" extremism could be removed by political and economic will - poverty, education, healthcare etc - makes me believe that "religion" per se is rarely the cause, it is the symptom. If the money spent by the allies militarily in Afghanistan had been put into wider social projects, (and not siphoned off in corruption!) the Taliban would not have gained the ground they did.
And so banning religion because a minority exploit it is like banning football because a minority use it as a cover to abuse and attack others, while ignoring the pleasure and emotional wellbeing that the majority get from it, (the weirdos).
It's too easy to want to ban X or y as it is the obvious problem, while failing to realise that the desire for a quick and easy result doesn't actually deal with the root cause which is z.
Came here to see the comments about Northern Ireland. I'm not disappointed.
[quote=Brads]Religion starts all wars and it’ll start another one here.
It should all be banned.
brads wrote:
Religion starts all wars and it’ll start another one here.It should all be banned.
spEak You're bRanes
@morecashthandash if the causes of violent extremism are poverty, education and healthcare then why was Al Queda, for example, started by a wealthy man from Saudi who could have done anything with his life? Why do people leave rich western countries to go and live in poverty in the caliphate? What are the demographics of people attracted to violent religious war?
You could listen to what they tell you and they do it for religious reasons. They want to reach paradise for eternity and therefore what is some earthly hardship?
Above you also dismiss the phenomena of suicide bombing by saying that if it wasn't that it would be some other violence. If you think about it it's far more terrifying. You have people who are better educated than you, smatter than you, richer than you, with better earthly prospects than you - deciding that the logical thing to do is kill themselves and as many others as possible. They do this because they sincerely believe they are going to paradise. As hard as it is to believe it's the truth. They are not mentally ill downtrodden people, far from it.
Religeon is medival superstition used as an instrument to control people
Always has been and anyone who base's their outlook on life through any religion in the 21st century should be considered mentally ill
Search for George Carlin on YouTube, he absolutely nails it with his views on religion
They do this because they sincerely believe they are going to paradise. As hard as it is to believe it’s the truth. They are not mentally ill downtrodden people, far from it.
The two are not mutually exclusive, though I'd prefer to call them vulnerable rather than mentally ill. Very few rich and "successful" western based people have gone to join AQ/ISIS etc, I'm not sure picking the extremes on either side of the argument justifies anyone's point in thus discussion. The point I'm trying to make is that probably 90% of the "religious" folk in the world are peaceful and tolerant, which a lot of intolerant non-religious people insist on glossing over.
Above you also dismiss the phenomena of suicide bombing by saying that if it wasn’t that it would be some other violence
At no point have I discussed suicide bombers, which is a very different phenomenon to general abuse of power, war and control that I have been talking about.
As mentioned, religion and power often go hand in hand.
'opium for the masses' to regurgitate an old phrase.
The power hungry need the peasents onside to do the dirty work.
More often than not religion or nationalism, or ideally both is a very convenient vehicle to that aim.
See brexit, ISIS, Israel, Northern Ireland, American patriots... Etc.
I am well aware that many folk find comfort in religion and I support their freedom to worship. I do this to the point I have taken patients in my care to church on my time off. Same as I have done this for football / rugby and cricket fans. Its the right thing to do. I have also made sure people get care in the way their religion requires making sure they get the right spiritual support they want again going right out of my way to do so.
What I will not do is be quiet when religious people want to control aspects of my life to conform with their religion and once you start to think about it this happens far more often than many realise. Religious interference in my secular life is never acceptable. the most obvious one is the utterly foul way they interfere in end of life care. and be very sure of this - the vast majority of objections to dignity in dying are religious pretending to be secular and spreading foul lies.
the other aspect i will not countenance is the mental and emotional turmoil religion causes in some people
One of my most distressing experiences in end of life care was a very devout religious ( IIRC RC) person who believed ( and this was reinforced by her minister / vicar / priest) that her pain and suffering was "gods will" She was dying hard with intractable pain. She honestly believed she was being punished for not being devout enough by her god and she died in real distress. Its unforgivable that religion would do that to someone. I have seen this many times but in this particular case it was really distressing to me and nothing I could do would alleviate her distress. she died full of guilt an turmoil believing she was being punished.
this element is also seen in"mother" Theresas "beautiful suffering" where she deliberately refused treatments for people in her care. Foul
I suspect the reason religion tends to be a recurring factor rather than the sole cause of conflict, is because it is easier to motivate a population to fight and die for you if the glory of eternal life is at stake rather than the enrichment of your rulers. Also it's perhaps easier to get all shooty and stabby with people if they are heathen infidels. Othering at it's logical extreme.
I think it’s very hard for an atheist to appreciate the power of religion. Suicide bombers really, truly believe they are going to nirvana. They are not running in to die thinking of Gaza.
I believe the use of suicide bombers in the Palestinian conflict would suggest otherwise.
I suspect the reason religion tends to be a recurring factor rather than the sole cause of conflict, is because it is easier to motivate a population to fight and die for you if the glory of eternal life is at stake rather than the enrichment of your rulers. Also it’s perhaps easier to get all shooty and stabby with people if they are heathen infidels. Othering at it’s logical extreme.
Dunno, the Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese and Cambodian revolutions, Rwandan and Yugoslavian civil wars and the Third Reich seem to suggest otherwise. And that's just within the last century or so. Humans have a great capacity to "other" each other, religion is just another banner to rally around, if it isn't that it's something else. The key to getting all these people to act in these ways is disenfranchisement, if people feel in control of their lives they generally don't harbour extreme tendencies, it's when you make then feel insecure that they can be exploited and manipulated to extreme acts.
TL:DR don't sit there feeling smug because you're atheist/intellectual/white, you're just as many missed meals away from it as anyone else.
The waters quickly get muddy when you remember how extensively Saudi Arabia has invested in the promotion of the wahhabist version of Islam... and the arms that the fundamentalists created by such religion need to further their cause
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/872075827575492609
All very odd when you consider Boris Johnson is apparently a 'passionate zionist'
Humans have a great capacity to “other” each other, religion is just another banner to rally around, if it isn’t that it’s something else
I don't disagree. I suppose I was just saying religion has performed the function of rallying people to a cause, but I wasn't suggesting it was the only thing that does. There are a lot of aspects of the ideologies behind the conflicts you mentioned that inspire the same kind of behaviour from those that follow them.
@squirrelking have you read Hamas' covenant? Everything in it revolves around the religion. They even have a specific article clarifying that nationalism is part of their religious creed and not a thing in itself. That's between the bits about killing all non believers and there being no political solution, only jihad.
I'm not suggesting Hamas aren't religious, that much is obvious, but the Palestinian conflict on a bigger scale is not purely one of religion. There are adversarial religious elements but they aren't the whole story.
@LimboJimbo that wasn't intended to read as just you I was replying to.
What other elements are there in Isreal / palestine?
Palestinians aren't one homogenous lump, the only common link they have is they aren't Israeli.
The Palestine conflict isn't about religion, its about resources.
What other elements are there in Isreal / palestine?
Err... land, surely? The absolute crux of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is who has the right to live where. Religion is by the by in comparison.
The absolute crux of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is who has the right to live where. Religion is by the the by in comparison.
I am definitely NOT saying that religion is NOT part of the Israel-Palestine conflict (it obviously is), but it is important to remember that many Palestinians are Christian - which makes the whole thing less obviously religious. Indeed, Yassar Arafat's wife was a Christian.
Land and resources is definitely a massive part of the conflict there.
Yes and the jewish diaspora that became Israel decided that bit of land was theirs as gods chosen people - and as a corollary threw the arabs off the land
Most of those jews had no links to the middle east being europeans
the only reason for the conflict is religion 100%. without religeon there would have been no jewish diaspora to the region.
Land and resources is definitely a massive part of the conflict there.
Which would not have happened if the jewish diaspora had not stolen most of the land under force of arms!
But that in itself could be seen as a reaction to the holocaust
Which was in turn a descendant of the pogroms in russia
Suicide bombers really, truly believe they are going to nirvana.
Totally inappropriate mixture of religions.
But you asked what other elements (other than religion) are in involved in that conflict. The implication being there aren't any. Surely you can acknowledge that whilst religion plays a role there are other significant factors at play?
If hypothetically Judaism and Islam had never existed, I'm fairly certain there would still be violent tribal/territorial disputes in that troubled part of the world.
I do not believe there are any other factors than religion at play
without religion there would have been no pogroms. without religion there would have been no holocaust of the jews
without religion there would be no isreal
without isreal there would not have been a 60 year war and a ghetto of a million people
the only driver for the Palestinian conflict is religion
But you asked what other elements (other than religion) are in involved in that conflict
Whilst you would have other conflicts going on its a tad hard to ignore the promised land part of why Palestine/Israel became a problem unless you are really, really determined to ignore the elephant in the room.
Whilst you would have other conflicts going on its a tad hard to ignore the promised land part of why Palestine/Israel became a problem unless you are really, really determined to ignore the elephant in the room.
Not ignoring it. I didn't say religion wasn't a factor, just suggesting (surprisingly controversially it seems) that there are other factors at play.
I think it's much more complex than the black and white 100% single issue certainty that is being claimed.
Answer me this. If the jewish diaspora had not stolen that land would there be a conflict in palestine?
By any other measure you'd be calling it colonialism but since the banner is zionism it's religion at fault. Look beyond the banner and it's less clear. Bear in mind not all Israelis are Jewish either.
I already gave my view on that a bit further back in the thread when I said
'If hypothetically Judaism and Islam had never existed, I’m fairly certain there would still be violent tribal/territorial disputes in that troubled part of the world'.
We will never know for sure of course. Much like the current mess in Afghanistan, superficially religion is the cause but tribal and familial rivalries, 'honour', 'warlords', power struggles and territorial disputes have a massive role. These almost certainly predate the relatively young religion they are currently associated with. There would have been a shit storm there without religion and probably in the Levant too.
Answer me this. If the jewish diaspora had not stolen that land would there be a conflict in palestine?
There's been conflict in that region since before the Romans. Never mattered who had stolen it from whom.