The famous quote "let them eat cake" was originally
"Qu'ils mangent de la brioche"
Can someone explain why that phrase is constructed like that?
I thought this was going to be asking for the french equivalent of brexit. I'm going with fortie
Can someone explain why that phrase is constructed like that?
Non, pardon.
To answer the original question I offer you nothing but a Gallic shrug
I speak French but like many speakers, my technical knowledge of grammar is not great. "Let them..." couldn't be translated; the French expression means literally: "That they eat of the cake."
Do you mean grammatically not cake vs brioche?
Brioche is feminine and used in this phrase as "uncountable" (some vs that one) so that is why [i]de la brioche[/i]
Its present tense plural (Ils) so manger is conjugated to ils mang[u]ent[/u]
Qu' is I guess "just how they'd say it" ... literal translation it seems weird perhaps to English speakers but "that they" is how it would be said.
If you translated literally it would be "laisse les" but that's just not really how it would be phrased... or perhaps something a child might say (or someone translating from another language)... it would be understandable just not "the way people say it"...
I guess there are lots of ways we say stuff in English where it's just the way we say it .... and would sound weird
Yes, I can...
Using 'que' like that to start a phrase is a rather formal way of constructing the imperative. The 'que' forces the next part of the phrase into the subjunctive
Literally "That they eat brioche" - You could interpret it as '(let it be)that they eat brioche" but the typical translation is, as you say "let them eat brioche"
Do you mean grammatically not cake vs brioche?
Yes.
Using 'que' like that to start a phrase is a rather formal way of constructing the imperative.
That makes sense, ta 🙂
I like to learn languages via grammar... not that 18th century French is particuarly relevant ofc.. I was just curious.
What would a more modern or casual version be?
Me too! I is grammar nerd 😉
I like to learn languages via grammar... not that 18th century French is particuarly relevant ofc.. I was just curious.
It still sounds current if formal to me.... what you'd read in Le Monde vs Figaro
I'm terrible at grammar and learned French very informally then had to learn the grammar later! This has improved my English grammar though so not wasted.
A really good example is literature.... I find Passe Historique (e.g. Dumas) really simple (if antiquated) whereas informal (Camus) I need to really think hard about every sentence or you can completely pick up the wrong end of the stick.
Oh it's still quite correct in contemporary French, just rather formal. In Astérix et Cleopatre she speaks like this all the time. It's a rather formal thing to say in English too when you think about it.
You could say
Je m'en fous, ils peuvent manger de la gateau - ça m'est égal !
- I don't give a toss, they can eat cake - makes no odds to me!
.. or any number of other similar phrases 🙂
Funny you should mention Camus. I found it relatively easy to read, BUT I got totally the wrong end of this stick when he goes to his mother's funeral and the director shows him a 'bière' and offers to open it for him and is then chagrined when he doesn't want him too.
Made more sense once I found out it can also mean 'coffin' 😉
(L'étranger)
Bof...
Funny you should mention Camus. I found it relatively easy to read
I found it easy to read in some ways... it was just how much subtlety I was missing. I read L'etranger when I was going through a more formal phase with an actual teacher and she demonstrated just how much I missed when she got me to break down each paragraph... Funny thing is I can barely remember the story, now you mention the enterrement I remember it but I think I must have read the book a paragraph at a time.
My recollection is that Camus is a very compact and efficient informal style and he packed in a huge amount of information in a minimum number of words... very elegant but the sort of thing you have to make sure you get every bit correct.
By habit I'm a speed reader so it's easier to me to have more words with less emphasis on each word...
Yes very true - he's rather like Hemingway. Very dry and compact prose but with as you say much hidden depth. I rather like that. I know what you mean about the past historic (pretorite) it is much simpler to an English way of thinking. I'm currently reading through 'le premier homme' which is good but a bit harder going.
[quote=GavinT ] I got totally the wrong end of this stick when he goes to his mother's funeral and the director shows him a 'bière' and offers to open it for him and is then chagrined when he doesn't want him too.
Made more sense once I found out it can also mean 'coffin'
(L'étranger)
I didn't know that, either, but it does seem to make sense as in english a Bier is "a movable frame on which a coffin or a corpse is placed before burial or cremation or on which they are carried to the grave"
Que vous soyez bon ou mauvais, sachez que vos efforts en Français sont appréciés. Ce n'est pas dur, je dirais même que c'est du gâteau. 😉
Some interesting similar examples here:
I always thought "je m'en fous" meant - "I'm fed up of it"
?
Dommage.
Molly what's gets me is cake is a deliberate mistranslation to make what she said sound a bit worse, brioche is a type of bread what she realy meant is if there is no pain/baguette etc why don't they eat brioche. Obviously out of touch but not as bad ?
I'm fed up is "j'en ai ras le bol/cul"
I couldn't care less is "je m'en tape/fous"
bol and tape are the less offensive options
I'm fed up is "j'en ai ras le bol/cul"
Indeed! Or we could go with the old favourite "J'en ai marre" 🙂
vous soyez
This subjuncive lark is as confusing as noun cases in German.
Obviously out of touch but not as bad ?
Side-track but - seriously? When they said 'the poor have no bread to eat' I don't think they were complaining they had to eat their camembert and olives with just the vin. Bread in this case means basic sustenance. So if Marie Antoinette thought that the riot was just becaues they had no bread when there was plenty of brioche to go round, she was being implausibly stupid, or deliberately callous.
Although it appears that whilst I knew she probably didn't say that, it appears history does not accurately record if she said anything at all or if any of it happened.
Molly what's gets me is cake is a deliberate mistranslation to make what she said sound a bit worse, brioche is a type of bread what she realy meant is if there is no pain/baguette etc why don't they eat brioche. Obviously out of touch but not as bad ?
Well yes at least - it's highly likely she never said any such thing. The French never really took to her due to her being Austrian. The expression came from an older tale and was attributed to her but there's no evidence she really said it.
But you can't use that to exonerate the French ruling classes of the time, can you?
Using 'que' like that to start a phrase is a rather formal way of constructing the imperative. The 'que' forces the next part of the phrase into the subjunctive
Same in Spanish, although not that formal as the (oft used) phrase "Que se jodan" shows.
This subjunctive lark is as confusing as noun cases in German.
Oui, il faut qu'on sache employer le subjontif! 😉
We do use it in English too - it's just that most people have forgotten about it.
'it is important that he *be* on time' (not is)
"J'en ai marre"
I can never stop thinking of the Smiths when I hear that.
I can never stop thinking of the Smiths when I hear that
Haha! yes there a theory that they made up their names from:
J'en ai marre - Johnny Marr
Moi aussi - Morrissey
but it's probably 'bidon' 😉
@GavinT - from what I remember of being taught French at school, the subjunctive is much more common in French than English. The usual example of the use of the subjunctive is "If I were you ...". But as you say, most in instances we don't recognise it. Then again we don't usually learn grammar of our native language, it tends to be the scaffolding on which we hang learning of foreign tongues.
[quote=GavinT ]
We do use it in English too - it's just that most people have forgotten about it.
the most well-known version is "If I were a rich man, a yabba-dabba-dabba-dabba-dabba-dee" etc etc
Absolutely - the French subjunctive is very common whereas the English is rarer and dying out. It sounds fine most of the time if you don't bother with it but the French would definitely correct you.
the most well-known version is "If I were a rich man, a yabba-dabba-dabba-dabba-dabba-dee" etc etc
But then Midge Ure came along and let the side down. Falling standards... 😉
BTW - anyone near Marple? French group tomorrow night, last wednesday of the month at 8pm in the Ring o'Bells if you want to come and talk rubbish in french for a couple of hours
https://twitter.com/marplefrench
Right. Whilst we're on the French, and cake......
Mrs. Mugsy. Bless here will bake a 'cake' now and again. However I often let it be known that I am very appreciative, but next time perhaps she should consider making 2 of what she made, and put some icing between them..... I don't think I've ever come across a home-made cake here, that is what I would call a cake.
Every time!!!! I just wish I could have MY cake like I want it and eat it.
Yes very true - he's rather like Hemingway. Very dry and compact prose but with as you say much hidden depth. I rather like that. I know what you mean about the past historic (pretorite) it is much simpler to an English way of thinking. I'm currently reading through 'le premier homme' which is good but a bit harder going.
I should probably do some recreational French reading .. other than technical reports/presentations I'm way out of practice.
Having lived and worked in a lot of places I have various levels of different languages (though French is by far the best) and annoyingly many colleagues think I pick languages up easily... which just isn't the case... I get enough oral quite easily but after that grammar is always a huge slog... not least in French due to the fact it's massacred by the youth so I ended up picking up incorrect usage...
I'm just really bad at sitting with a grammar text book ... partially since I understand so little of our own English grammar.
Yeah - I've been studying for ages and spent quite a lot of time in Duolingo. So much so that I ended up as a mod and course contributor. This meant I really needed to brush up my grammar so as not to make a fool of myself when trying to answer queries.
My favourite thing I've read in French so far is probably the 'le petit Nicolas' series. Superficially kids books but with a lot of knowing humour and utterly charming. Plus they're dead easy! 🙂
I do need to do a lot more learning. I need a grammar reference and then probably some kids' books.
Secret confessions ... I'm not proud of it 😀 but the translation of Harry Potter into French is just awesome. A friend of mine who's a translator by both study and profession practically cried.... it's almost like they have been rewritten rather than translated.
I'm pulling an "in my defence" and speculating JK actually chose the translator and was actively involved ... (Given she studies at the Sorbonne and has been really active with the films)
Best grammar book I've read:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Grammar-Students-French-Learning/dp/0934034370
Can be found cheaper with a bit of googling.
It explains clearly how English functions on a particular point and then goes on to explain how French is similar/differs.
It really helps get over that obstacle that most of us don't really understand the grammar of our own language.
My wife has those books, but I must say I don't want to read them. HP pisses me off.
Not sure I want to learn French grammar with reference to English.. I think that saying French X is like English Y makes it sound the same when it's not.
That not really what it's about. The books don't really teach french at all. They explain - for example - what subject / object pronouns are and how to use them. This is the sort of thing that people often struggle with when learning any language as they know their own grammar intuitively but often haven't examined it.
Still if you have them available to you you'll know what they're about and if it works for you or not. I found it helpful.
(not sure what HP means)
I haven't studied grammar directly for a while now - I just immerse myself in French TV, music and books. Occasionally looking something up if I can't work it out.
🙂
/edit - you're talking about Harry Potter aren't you... Je vais chercher mon manteau.
not sure what HP means
HP = Harry Potter
While we've got you here Gavin...why is it that the infinitive of the verb is used sometimes and sometimes the second person (sing/plur) for orders. The one I'm thinking of is the one I see most in France which is "Ralentir" on the autoroutes, which I would translate as "to slow down". But you see plenty of other examples elsewhere...I just can't think of them right now. Is it just convention or is a more polite way of asking someone to so something, rather than the more direct "ralentissez"?
Je vais chercher mon manteau
prendre?
