Are you not over that yet Rusty? 2 shops, one owned by a member of your family, one by a non-family member. They both sell the same things at the same price, which one do you go to.
To be fair, I followed his link, and that's somewhat different from the comment he was referring to. Nevertheless, in the context of THIS thread, fair play to you, and I have no problem with you being free to express those views, or indeed these views. Which appear to be different. Which is also fine.
Are you not over that yet Rusty? 2 shops, one owned by a member of your family, one by a non-family member. They both sell the same things at the same price, which one do you go to...
Family were not mentioned in the context of that thread.
You said:
patriotpro - MemberIf the corner shop is indigenously owned then that - otherwise elsewhere.
Jesus, at least have some dignity at least & stand up for your convictions.
Junkyard. Happy to agree with you there: That we disagree. Apologies if you felt I was insulting you, I was meaning to criticise your argument, not you as a person.
Nice Godwin though.
thought it would be appreciated but it also made a point 😉
"Those who despise our tolerance and promote hatred."
"Those who believe that their religious views are more important than our democratic process."
"Those who threaten random violence."
Care to be specific on which groups that fit this list you will be considering the benefit of your direct action?
"Some views are just fundamentally incompatible with our system of democracy and our ideals of freedom and representation."
Yes but those that hold them have the right to speak them and long may that right continue. Because they can air their views we know that these people exist, to suppress them would be foolish.
Who decides what people can think and say, you? a politician? the police, Hope not.
Yes but those that hold them have the right to speak them and long may that right continue. Because they can air their views we know that these people exist, to suppress them would be foolish.
I COMPLETELY agree.
From my previous post.
I believe in total freedom of speech. No exceptions.
But with that comes the right to provide a contradictory point of view.
"Those who despise our tolerance and promote hatred.""Those who believe that their religious views are more important than our democratic process."
"Those who threaten random violence."
Care to be specific on which groups that fit this list you will be considering the benefit of your direct action?
I just had a quick look at the EDL About page. Looks like that's what they say they're all about. 😀
As previously stated, I take the far rights views personally, and have no qualms in standing up and saying I @$&#ing hate fascists. Hey, I quite like this freedom of speech thing!
I just had a quick look at the EDL About page. Looks like that's what they say they're all about.
Well, they would, wouldn't they? 😀
'I'm a scared, ignorant tosser, prone to violence & afraid of other cultures' hasn't got quite the same ring to it.
I subsbcribe to it but would have take up arms against Hitler
Perhaps worth pointing out Hitler founded the National Socialist German Workers' Party, better known as the Nazi Party.
Socialists and workers, very intolerant bunch.
The edl are just another far right splinter group, bnp lite in all but name. Tommy Robinson (or whatever he's changed his name to this week) was a known figure on the football hooligan scene before he formed the edl, and knew his target audience perfectly well. I'd perhaps think more highly of them if they were at least open and true to their own beliefs, instead of trying to hide their true agenda.
Rusty FFS how bossy are you man?!
Fair does I didn't state family, but I have now and it's apt, as you have conceeded.
At the end of the day it's all self-preservation, interpret it any way you like, I will.
I'm now off for a beer, I suggest you do the same (you sound like you need it). 😉 Xxx
patriotpro - Member
Freedom of speech is for everyone, not just those you agree with.
Yep, well done. Now what does that have to do with people protesting against the far right?
It works both ways you see, I respect the right of the far right to march and say what they want, but they don't like it when their pathetic gatherings are consistently outnumbered by people protesting against them. Poor lambs. But they can't say "Please stop protesting against us because it makes it obvious what a tiny minority we are" so they use a claim of their free speech being impededed to try and shut down the free speech of those telling them to piss off, which is patently ridiculous.
patriotpro - Member
At the end of the day it's all self-preservation, interpret it any way you like, I will.
Self-preservation...what?
Why give them the satisfaction of protesting against them?
Just ignore them like most people do - especially at election time.
There will always be hateful little people being hateful - mostly they are just looking to cause a a reaction - so don't give them one.
They are an irrelevance (albeit a nasty, prejudiced and violent one). There are laws in place if they actually do anything physical or incite others to do so. Then it becomes a criminal matter - then the police get to deal with them.
If they 'play by the rules' then you can get on with your life and ignore them.
patriotpro - MemberRusty FFS how bossy are you man?!
I'm not bossy - I just hate cowardly racists.
Fair does I didn't state family, but I have now and it's apt, as you have conceeded.
I have no idea what this means.
patriotpro - MemberIf the corner shop is indigenously owned then that - otherwise elsewhere.
How does this relate to your family?
At the end of the day it's all self-preservation, interpret it any way you like, I will.
I have no idea what this means either.
You obviously had a meaning in mind when you wrote it, would you care to explain?
nowadays i'm far more afraid of the centre right that foam at the mouth about benefit cheats, imaginary terrorist threats and europeans straightening our bananas. they're far more of a threat to what i hold dear than the nf, bnp or edl could ever be.
Perhaps worth pointing out Hitler founded the National Socialist German Workers' Party, better known as the Nazi Party.Socialists and workers, very intolerant bunch.
No idea what your point is tbh and Hitler did not form it either..he was not even the first leader
The party was founded out of the far-right racist völkisch German nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany....The party was created as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[
It was not in any sense socialists though it did indeed use the word
interpret it any way you like, I will.
Ok I interpret it as you would base your purchasing based on the race /nationality [indigneosity??]of the owners as that is what you said. I would say you over use the wink - you claiming the edinburgh so early or you just sticking with re defining what you said ?
Just ignore them like most people do - especially at election time
Unfortunately some get elected
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/hate-groups/bnp/councillors
Just ignore them like most people do - especially at election time.
nowadays i'm far more afraid of the centre right that foam at the mouth about benefit cheats, imaginary terrorist threats and europeans straightening our bananas. they're far more of a threat to what i hold dear than the nf, bnp or edl could ever be.
Put yourself in the shoes of an Asian woman in traditional Muslim dress or a black/Asian person on your way home when a gang of these drunken EDL yobs roll out of the pub towards you and your local elected representative is an EDL councillor voted for by your neighbours.
It's bad enough getting one of their leaflets through the door believe me.
free speech is a great thing.
the edl/nf/bnp have the right to voice their opinions.
as i have the right to call them a bunch ****ing racist ****ing shit for brains ****er cock wombles.
I had my photo printed on one of the BNP 'wanted' sheets, as i had a bright red mohican i stood out somewhat.
We retaliated by printing pics of two gay skins kissing and posting them around the town 🙂
Facism is explicitly NOT a free-speech agenda. That's where the free-speech argument breaks down. Groups whose ideology doesn't subscribe to it can't hide behind it
Put yourself in the shoes of an Asian woman in traditional Muslim dress or a black/Asian person
how do you know i'm not ?
i was involved in the anti nazi league and rock against racism in the 70s & 80s. i really don't need you to preach to me about fighting these people.
anyhow, the point i'm trying to make is that the centre right are far more likely to affect the lives of people than the far right ever are (or were) by din to the fact that they actually make a huge difference at the ballot box. the sooner people wake up to that and fight it by using their votes, the better.
I am not really sure how you can argue for selective freedom of speech. Of course, it is an uncomfortable result of FoS that those whose views are generally considered objectionable have to be tolerated if we wish to enjoy the wider benefits. However, I think we get it broadly right in this country. We have laws that protect against FoS extending into incitment to violence, racism, sexism etc and that seems a sensible solution.
This leaves two obvious solutions to those that you find objectionable - (1) ignore them, (2) give them their voice and allow them to show just how stupid they are, especially when challenged. That seemed to work well a few years ago with Nick Griffen and QT. After all the fuss (which benefited him) he actually came across as one might expect when given the chance. He was allowed to dig his own hole and broadly speaking that is the best solution IMO.
how do you know i'm not ?
Your photo 😉
But that's not what my example meant anyway.
I'm going to buck the STW tradition and not waste my time or energy arguing with someone I agree with.
Fascists have a long history of intolerance, racism, and anti democratic ideals-- i'm with all who take them on....
I don't agree with the poppy burning lot, but I fully support their [b]right[/b] to protest.
Same applies to the far-right people.
This leaves two obvious solutions to those that you find objectionable - (1) ignore them, (2) give them their voice and allow them to show just how stupid they are, especially when challenged. That seemed to work well a few years ago with Nick Griffen and QT. After all the fuss (which benefited him) he actually came across as one might expect when given the chance. He was allowed to dig his own hole and broadly speaking that is the best solution IMO.
Thats OK when they are in places like a controlled television studio, where they can be challenged at a rational level. But history shows that they can rally together, intimidate and bully more into joining in. They need to be stood against in those situations as well.
I don't agree with the poppy burning lot, but I fully support their right to protest.Same applies to the far-right people.
Agreed. Right up until "taking a stand" turns to "taking up arms and dealing out a kicking".
Violence isn't the answer.
Agreed. Right up until "taking a stand" turns to "taking up arms and dealing out a kicking".
Violence isn't the answer.
But presumably you support British military involvement overseas?
Not always, no.
However, rather harder to compare a governmental decision to that of a group of thugs. Although, actually.... 🙂
rather harder to compare a governmental decision to that of a group of thugs
two gangs of self-important overgrown boys thinking that they are doing what's right..
no difference whatsoever, other than their backgrounds
😀
I agree with your sentiments, the problem is that people face off aggression from the EDL, the BNP and the NF on their own terms. In an ideal world the far right could be defeated by debate. The truth is they are more interested in punching your lights out. So I think it's acceptable, not desirable, that they get given a good hiding by elements of our society who won't back down to bullies.
Yossarian, I suppose my point here is that those giving "a good hiding" rather lose some of their argument against those that are "more interested in punching your lights out."
I'd just rather see people rise above them, not sink to their thuggish, brutish, pathetic level of violence.
Ok then captain, I'll give you an example. You're walking past the BNP paper sale in the precinct of your local town, and because you've been recognised from 'red watch', one or two of the boneheads start seig healing and making monkey noises at your little boy. Debate or kick their knackers from under them?
Yossarian, I suppose my point here is that those giving "a good hiding" rather lose some of their argument against those that are "more interested in punching your lights out."I'd just rather see people rise above them, not sink to their thuggish, brutish, pathetic level of violence.
I think the debate doesnt even start. It's far more animalistic than that. You want to bring fear and force to OUR streets? Have some back. Remember the school bully? Didn't matter what you said. The only way to stop him hurting others was to kick the shit out of him. Same rules. I agree that it's a base action, however it is I'm afraid the only currency the far right deal in or understand. Sad, but true.
Barnsleymitch, seriously?....that would cause you to become violent?
You need help.
Sticks and stones and all that.
A stranger calling me names, making rude signs and generally making an arse of themselves is easily ignored....and should be.
If when walking past said BNP members they get physical then a line has been crossed and they deserve to be on the recieving end of a good hiding but all the time its just words they can be easily laughed off/ignored/insulted back etc etc....
I abhor a lot of socialist/leftist type views but i wouldnt get punchy if i saw a group of them campaigning in my area.
Freedom of speech is absolute, if you cant handle the words some nasty big bullies spout then you really need some perspective.
A stranger calling me names, making rude signs and generally making an arse of themselves is easily ignored....and should be.
I'm just trying to imagine ignoring the type of situation that barnsleymitch describes if I had my 3 year old lad with me..
That would be pretty flipping wierd, and not very responsible parenting..
I'm not saying that I'd kick off, indeed I hope that I wouldn't, our kids have been raised to be lovers not fighters (may they forgive me)..
I'm just imagining stopping to jovially and impartially observe and comment, to discuss the event as it happens, answer his questions - probably impossibly hard work but possibly good fun.. Imagine trying to remain a good calm father in the face of that aggression
Unless of course they got violent.. then suddenly it's a massive shift, entering another dimension
Mind blowing stuff really
Deviant - please read my other posts on this thread, one of them may give you a little more information about the little lad in question. And thanks for the advice about needing help - I nearly laughed.
barnsleymitch, you turn to your little boy, and in a loud voice say "see, this is what happens when you don't pay attention at school" 😀
I would have thought it fairly simple to say to your son that the men doing the noises, signs etc etc are idiots and should be treated with the utmost disdain....in language a 3 yr old would understand obviously.
I've long held the belief that people are their own worst enemy, rather than get on with their own lives, quietly influencing those around them (friends and family) in a positive way with their actions, people instead find it easier to spout off about their own views and try to talk round people who dont agree with them leading to more conflict.
I couldnt give a toss if somebody i dont know dislikes me or disagrees with my political leanings, i'll get up again tomorrow and continue on my merry way like i do every day....why on earth would i want to enter into dialogue (or fisticuffs) with somebody whose views are so diametrically different to mine?....waste of time and energy, i'll let other people blather on trying to shape the world according to their views.
Deviant - he has learning difficulties. For what it's worth, I didn't kick off, because I didn't want him to see that. Sometimes though, discussion and debate is not enough. I no longer take an active part in anti fascist action, partly because I'm too old to be rolling about on the floor with some f***wit nazi meathead, but mainly because I would be struck off (I'm a registered nurse) if arrested for such shenanigans. However, I still think its right to take the fight to racists, it's the only thing they understand.
Politics aside I love a laugh at those who see freedom as that which suits them only. Whilst not agreeing with those you preach against I reserve the right to abhor your intolerance of those who differ to yourselves. Language as used above is as uncivilized as that preached by the BNP etc. As are your actions. Behave like them equals them. 😆
Much more effective is to marginalise them and humiliate them by pointing out their minority views and lack of real support....fight them and you give them a cause, if society in general ignores these groups and moves on then they start to look like the sad little organisations they are....and who really wants to be a member of a group viewed like that?....pitied by society even.
