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coffeeking - MemberRoadside flashing "30" signs - dont make a jot of difference to anyone other than those too stupid to realise they're not cameras. They also de-sensitise people as they're often set at or just below the limit and so are always on.
Actually, statistics indicate that they work very well.
Sample size of 1, granted, but flashing 30 signs were put up in my village about a year ago and they seem to be working very well.
In France they have moving cut-out mannequins in some places, usually at roadworks. A human figure bobbing out from the bollards is quite effective at reminding drivers to keep it down.
Best way to enforce speed limits and not have drivers speed up between obstacles is to use average speed cameras. This could easily be done on fairly long sections of road in built up areas.
they just put in a 20 limit round our way. the road is used as a cut-through, and goes past a child's playground. as i reflected to my GF, it won't and hasn't made any difference at all to the self important 'i must get there as soon as possible', be they middle aged rep types, mums, or youngsters.
what we need is a return to proper road policing on ALL roads. unfortunately a properly crewed traffic car is deemed too expensive for it's 'return' in most cases.
oh - and those flashing signs do work quite well actually - looked on much more favourably than speed cameras by pretty much everyone, are shown to be effective at changing behaviour as they play on guilt, which most of us have in abundance...
I dont see why there is so much discussion about traffic calming here - surely a lot of this is about helping to justify fitting satalite tracking in cars?
As for the additional fines such a slow limit will incur?
This is not to say I dont recognise lives might be saved.
A lot of focus on the drivers in this thread and it's true there are a lot of bad drivers.
How about some education for pedestrians? Is the Green Cross Code still taught as thoroughly? It's certainly not advertised much on TV anymore.
Round my way, at a lot of the road junctions they put speed bumps in right at the junctions. Here's an example
So this forces drivers to slow down as they approach the junction.
Unfortunately because it's the same height as the pavement and it's continious all the way across the junction pedestrians think of it as an extension of the pavement and they just keep on walking without bothering to check if traffic is around.
The entrance into my street is a nightmare too.
People never, never, never bother to check if any cars are turning into or coming out of the street before they step off the pavement.
So how about reminding pedestrians that a ton of car may hurt a little bit when it hits them so they should be a bit more careful when crossing the road!
Actually, statistics indicate that they work very well
I agree the stats do show they work well, however having driven though one section of road on my commute both before and after their placement I can say they've made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the average speed through the area and the sign is constantly lit as I've yet to see anyone pass it while not speeding. Maybe it's down to the location of this particular one (and all the others I've seen) being badly chosen. The problem being this one particular road goes 60>30>60>30 and apart from afew scattered houses it would be a 60 right through so most people just stay at that speed range.
No, its about reclaiming our towns and cities from motor vehicles.
Where I live people speed at 20 to 30mph over the limit. It makes it very difficult to cross the road, causes lots of crashes and arguments and congestion.
Anyway, width restrictions in roads are the single most dangerous raod furniture installed today. Every single day I have to brake or avoid motorists diving into them, braking at the last minute or even locking up all the wheels and demolishing them. They really don't work and produce about 90% of my unpleasant conforntations with motorists. In my 5 miles journey to work I probably go past about 20 width restrictions/ central refuges and over the last 13 years I don't think a single day has gone by without me having to avoid someone attempting to squeeze me out.
Nearby there's a 20 limit (in Ham) its amazing how quickly you can get a line of about 15 cars behind in less than half a mile of travelling at the posted speed.
There is another aspect to all this.
The capabilities of the cars themselves.
I drive a 10 year old diesel Passat. I enjoy driving (for many of the same reasons I enjoy riding bikes). The Passat is in no way challenging or interesting to drive in anything less than a 60 limit, and on an average single carriageway A-road 70+ is comfortable - feels like I'm working at about 75%. I got done for speeding recently (70 in a 60 limit)for the first time after 17 years, so I'm making a real effort not to speed at all. It's absolutely killed my enthusiasm for driving, and it's also affected my concentration levels - too much time looking at the speedo rather than the road, and its far too easy to day dream because its all too easy, effortless and uninvolving.
I had the loan of a fleet Audi A4 diesel automatic over the weekend. At 70 on the motorway I could have been sat in front of the telly with the sound turned off. Absolutely no sensation of speed, no feedback. 30 was nigh on impossible to maintain without constant attention to the speedo - the car would just pick up speed if I twitched my little toe.
I can't help but feel that if we're really concerned about speed limits we need to make a) make cars which demand concentration and involvement to drive and b)feel down right hard work at anything over 70. If you couldn't hear yourself talk and were getting shaken to pieces at 60, then you'd slow down... I guess people would also find alternative methods of transport too.
However I suspect you'd have a hard job getting Mr. Sales rep to buy into the latest Ford Vibrorattle LX with extra noise maker.
So no one likes my flasher suggestion? It would mean more petrol usage for me however I think reward enough 🙂
I don't have a problem with 20 limits in residential areas. We've had them in the N/E for about 5 years and they seem pretty sensible.
The Dutch no roadsigns/roadmarkings/railings/pavements thingy is quite cool. Have seen them in Ijmuiden & they seem to work pretty well. I can't see us adopting anything that sensible.
50 limits on country roads - depends where they're deployed. Suspect it'll be all the truck-laden routes which they can't be bothered to upgrade, like the A1 North of Alnwick or the A15 through Lincolnshire. Essentially they're 40mph roads now anyway as there's no opportunity to make progress safely. If they do the 697 or 686 I'll not be happy.
Satellite tracking and/or control (from a speed point of view) of cars - I doubt we'll see it in the next ten to twenty years as the cost will be too prohibitive to bring older vehicles into line. Besides, with ANPR and RIPA, plod essentially have all the information they want at hand already.
I don't think the title "Comrade" really does him justice, it's more like Lord Protector, High Chancellor or Gruppenführer Brown.
I recently attended a speed awareness workshop (as an alternative to points) having been caught speeding in a 30 zone. All attendees were 'low speed speeders' (37 or less in a 30) and I guess thought to be worth educating/reminding about urban speed. I was genuinely suprised by how useful it was. A point made was that 30 is the limit and in many instances you should be driving a lot slower. How many people do that though? Try slowing down a bit and someone will be right up your a**
Hot_fiat - yeah, Newcastle is littered with 20mph limits. Sometimes its the extra little things on top that help.
They've just put 20mph zone into our estate. they've also tightened up the road junctions - before they were broad sweeping ones basically inviting people to keep moving and join the main road like sliproads - now it's a 90 degree 'turn' which has done wonders for people actually stopping at the junctions.
Though it's not all good news, there used to be little miniroundabouts everywhere to feed into the little roads off the main road - they acted like small speedbumps/chicanes whith the possibility someone might come out on you. They took them off, put some tiny speedbumps in (to allow the hourly bus service to smoothly plod around). Now the mummys in their X5s just plough through them doing 30 instead of 20. Sigh.
At the risk of sounding careless, I agree with JonEdwards - sometimes driving slowly really does affect the concentration. I notice this most on motorways as I tend to cruise at 55-60 in the inside lane for fuel economy while I'm not in a rush to get to places. I often find my mind wandering and have had more concentration-related "ooh" moments (drifting over lanes slightly etc) while travelling at that speed than when I used to hoon about charged with adrenalin at 80-90 on the same stretches. At lower speeds you simply perceive a lower risk and your brain starts to work on other things. This applies to 20 limits too - at 20 I'm fairly sure most people are going to be more likely to want to concentrate on other things rather than the road.
coffeeking - what we need is to all drive 1960s minis - I had one, driving at 30 was like 70mph in all other cars!
It is the volvo factor - if you feel safe and comfortable in their big heavy airbagged car then you'll take risks that you may never do in a, say, little Fiat Panda.
As someone said, the best safety device might be a large pointy stick pointing at your chest from the driving wheel......
breatheeasy - you're right in some respects. But I think its a bit more complex. My first car was a peugeot 205 - while it was a tin box and had no safety kit I would still hoon about in it at redline on the motorway, at which point it was way out of its stopping league but was fun to drive. It demanded concentration at 60-70. My celica feels nicely settled at the speeds the 205 redlined at, its pretty damned good at stopping and ultra stable - having had to do emergency 2-lane darts at high speed to avoid someone who bounced off the central res on the motorway I can attest to that happily - so what we need is a car that is ultimately safe yet feels scary as hell 🙂 The problem is we'd know it was safe and drive to its limits and if it wasnt safe it would be a danger to those around us too.
I can't help but feel that if we're really concerned about speed limits we need to make a) make cars which demand concentration and involvement to drive and b)feel down right hard work at anything over 70. If you couldn't hear yourself talk and were getting shaken to pieces at 60, then you'd slow down... I guess people would also find alternative methods of transport too.
Alec Issigonis thought of this when he designed the Mini. It was released for sale in 1959.
I recently attended a speed awareness workshop (as an alternative to points) having been caught speeding in a 30 zone. All attendees were 'low speed speeders' (37 or less in a 30) and I guess thought to be worth educating/reminding about urban speed. I was genuinely suprised by how useful it was. A point made was that 30 is the limit and in many instances you should be driving a lot slower. How many people do that though?
Er, me. Used to drive like a lunatic when younger. The more time I spent on a bike, the better driver I became. To the extent now that I'm firmly convinced that the limit is just that, "a limit, not a target".
i was overtaken at the weekend doing <25 in a 30, because the local fire station was gearing up to go out and the level-crossing style lights were firing up. The dumb fork behind me in a D-reg talbot campervan obviously took exception to having his progress impeeded and took delight in rattling by me, swearing out the window and tooting his horn.
I took more delight in smiling and tooting the horn back when i'd coasted up to the lights about 5s later. To make matters worse he tried to overtake the person in front and go through the lights! Luckily a traffic island got in his way and he looked like a prize prickle in front of a dozen cars and two fire engines. I adhered to the 10 second rule for the remainder of the time this lunatic was moving in the same direction as me.
moral of the story is regardless of speed there are idiots on the road and changing the behaviour of the minority will not work, it needs to be a wholescale change in attitudes in the same way that not wearing a setabelt is now regarded.
my 2p anyway
Education is definitely key. Did a bike [url= http://www.northumbria.police.uk/news_and_events/media_centre/news_releases/details.asp?id=11955 ]cornering clinic[/url] with plod in Morpeth a few months ago (Nothumberand had/has the highest number of biker fatalities than any other police force so they have to be seen to be doing something). It was really good! Met friendly biker-dude plods; talked about bikes all day; saw some horrific, eye-opening* incident report photos, got taken on an assessed rideout; changed bits of my riding style appropriately and went away a much happier and safer rider. Top marks!
It’s a shame they can't do similar stuff for drivers, but driving's not seen as a skill to hone, develop and ultimately enjoy. People see it as a 'right'.
A
*the most astonishing one was the bike which hit a tractor/trailer laden with 12 round bales broadside with such force that he overturned the trailer.
I find it easy to drive near the limt whit out constantly watching the speedo and can't understand why people can't other than they just have no idea of what is going on around them. I did see recently that some one has come up with a design of speed bump that when hit at speeds slower than the limt deforms and aloows the tyre to pass over where as if you hit it fast it goes rock hard and forces the tyre up and over it. They seemed a very good idea to me.
Shouldn't we feel smug that unlike frustrated drivers, we can still bike off road just as fast and hard as we like?
Cars have got very boring. Ultimately that's a good thing. RIP.
What about the '3rd for 30' thing? Anyone here do that? Very noticeable if your speed creeps up. I can't get into the habit of doing it though.
I find it easy to drive near the limt whit out constantly watching the speedo and can't understand why people can't other than they just have no idea of what is going on around them.
Because the limit seems extremely slow in a lot of cases - my speed naturally drifts upward to reduce boredom. It's not a purposeful thing, but 30/40 down this particular stretch of road:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=a803&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=18.388688,56.953125&ie=UTF8&ll=55.935465,-4.226775&spn=0.008485,0.027809&t=h&z=16
is rather slow-seeming. Certainly as there are rarely any peds crossing the road as there's no pavement on one side.
Cars haven't got boring, the fun of driving (for myself) is cornering and acceleration - this can be achieved in plenty with most modern cars. Being stuck at 30 on a road that can easily be taken at 60 is boring. Unfortunately because we cant be trusted to only do 60 when it's safe and not when the schools are kicking out we have to be forced into boredom 🙂
What about the '3rd for 30' thing? Anyone here do that? Very noticeable if your speed creeps up. I can't get into the habit of doing it though.
Great way to waste fuel I'll give you that if your car revs more at 30, and with a stereo above 1/8th I can't hear my engine anyway on the diesel. On my loud obnoxious car I'd struggle to get into rd at 30 as I'd be bouncing off idle, but I would hear it 🙂 This is it works differently on different cars.
I find that its 3rd for 20, 4th for 30 and 5th for 40.
...and judging by the onboard, it'll return about 5mpg, can get 60mpg at 40
What about the '3rd for 30' thing?
Worked very well on our old car (2.0l Focus), which sat happily at 30 in third and let you know about it if your speed crept up.
Not so good on our new car (also a 2.0l Focus) which has higher/longer/taller/whatever-the-technical-term-is gears so it will happily do up to 50 in 3rd without screeching.
When I learnt to drive the instructor encouraged the use of 2nd for residential streets and pretty much all corners, roundabouts etc.
my clio has a speed limiter, which is the opposite of cruise control. basically you ping in the max speed you want to do and the engine wont go above it in any gear. its a very strange feeling driving through at exactly 29 mph with your foot on the floor. very useful though, but a faff to use on 20/30/20 style journeys
I have just been done in a rural 30. 👿
Surely if they were serious about reducing speed/accidents, all cars would be governed to 75mph and/or power output. To keep imposing limits and speed cameras is a money raising venture rather than an effort to actually address the problem?
[i]Surely if they were serious about reducing speed/accidents, all cars would be governed to 75mph and/or power output. To keep imposing limits and speed cameras is a money raising venture rather than an effort to actually address the problem? [/i]
Not really.
You can quite happily drive a car pissed whilst reading your paper shaving your face and phoning your mates with a speed governer fitted.
20mph in a urban zone is a good idea.
50mph on a rural A road is utter stupidity. In case anyone hasn't noticed people don't drive 60mph on rural A road. So why is changing it down to 50mph going to make any difference? I reckon it will cause more accidents and deaths, people who want to go 70-80mph will still do so and just overtake the people driving at slow speeds. Probably in dangerous areas too.
People are generally good at judging speed. We have a lot of cars on the road and a very low accident rate compared to most other countries.
It’s just another way for the government to waste our money. Governing cars is very silly, most of the time you need to accelerate out of accidents hence why mopeds are so dangerous.
Another thing they need to do is regulate insurance companies, this will cut the amount of uninsured drivers. When you are quoted £1200 at 18 a lot of people will just drive uninsured.
..most of the time you need to accelerate out of accidents..
Come on, that is blatantly not true.
[i]Sometimes[/i] you may be able to avoid an accident by accelerating out of danger, but I'd say almost all accidents could be avoided by stopping before you get to them.
Graham S - clearly you have never ridden a motorbike. The amount of times I've had to accelerate when cars decide to turn out of the road or roundabout in front of me is ureal.
True, I haven't and I'm not sure how that relates to governing the speed on [u]cars[/u], which is what your original comment related to.
I have been in similar situations on a bike though, where accelerating out of trouble was not an option (especially the way I ride!).
Edit: to be clear, I accept the argument that [i]sometimes[/i] being able to briefly exceed the speed limit may help avoid an accident so I'm not in favour of putting automatic governors on cars.
At least not at anything close to the speed limit. Something like 100mph may be a reasonable limit, but I can't see that saving many lives.
Think the future will probably end up with a little black box in all cars by law. You crash or get pulled over then plod plugs into your box and gets your speed out. Either that or they connect it to GPS and automatically send you the fine....
I seem to remember some company (maybe Post Office) considering that for their vans now.
Maybe though I suspect it will be brought in via insurance companies rather than law.
e.g. Are you a safe driver? Do you obey the speed limits? Why not fit a DirectAdmiralMeerkat.com SafetyBox™ and enjoy a 95% reduction* in your premiums today.
[size=1]* Reduction applies for first week only. SafetyBox™ must remain fitted for at least ten years. Your home and your first born child may be at risk if you do not keep up payments.[/size]
As a non-driver, the news that some of you people [i]have[/i] to speed simply to prevent your concentration wandering scares the hell out of me.
Driving like a tosser so that you don't drive like a numpty seems a wierd piece of justification. But hey. 😯 🙂
BD - on the bike do you concentrate more thrashing it down a downhill run or just dawdling along the path? Which one are you more likely to notice conditions and stuff out of the ordinary?
Why would it be hugely different in a car? I don't speed much; it's hard when my car was made in the 70's. It takes total concentration just to drive the thing.
I'm more like likely [i]to notice conditions and stuff out of the ordinary[/i] when I'm looking around me and not just at the bit of trail a few feet in front of me.
It’s a shame theycan't do similar stuff for drivers, but driving's not seen as a skill to hone, develop and ultimately enjoy. People see it as a 'right'.
This is kind of what I'm getting at. I'd love to hone my driving skills, be smoother, enjoy it more. (I do think it's verging on criminal that we don't have to do any skid pan training before passing your driving test - how many people get it wrong on their first -and subsequent- emergency stop in the rain and either freeze or have no idea how to correct the skid. I was hugely lucky - I overcorrected the skid and ended up doing a full 360 in the road without hitting anything. Needed clean keks mind...). But all that the training will do is allow people to drive faster, may be safer, but still faster....
As a non-driver, the news that some of you people have to speed simply to prevent your concentration wandering scares the hell out of me.
Yup. Spoken like a true non-driver... 😉 I do know this - most of my serious bike accidents have been when I've been pootling, not when I've been hitting some supergnarradtasticdoubleblack DH trail. How many car accidents are caused because people aren't concentrating fully - phones, ipods, fags, conversations, make up, whatever. The very fact that it's at all possible to do any of these things whilst simultaneously controlling a car suggests quite how low the minimal level of attention needed to drive the average car is. If you *have* to apply yourself fully, you're far less likely to a) get distracted by trivialities and b) miss something vital.
Dare I join in?
My view is get rid of the 30 completely. give the motorist something back by using 20 and 40 in urban areas. Narrow road / junctions / houses / schools - 20. If the road is wide enough to provide proper cycle paths, right and left filter lanes for turns and so on - 40 limit.
Effectivlyu if cars are mixing with ped and bikes - 20 if you can engineer the road to keep cars separate from bikes and ped 40.
The other thing I really like I have seen used in france where a N road goes thru a town. A speed sensor near the start of the speed limit. If a car goes thru above the limit all the traffic lights on the main road turn red.
I get really cross with "traffic calming measures" that make life dangerous for cyclist - those awful width restrictions / chicanes. Even if they put a way thru near the kerb its always blocked with parked ars. I like speed humps tho - the igger the better. Now more amusing than overtaking cars slowing for them and using the hump as a jump.
20 in residentials areas is a great idea, but the people who speed in 30's are not going to slow down any how (around our way it tends to be mothers on the school run). To me speed limits are kind of irrelevant, your drive for the conditions of the road your on, and the only time you make sure your in a limit is if there is a copper/camera around.
50mph in rural areas is a joke. I would say the average speed in country areas certainly by locals would be 60-80mph.
IMO make cars less cosseted and comfortable. I used to have a Suzuki Cappuccino which was limited to 85mph, the fact is at 75mph it felt dam quick. My latest car doesnt feel remotely as quick even at 120mph!
breatheeasy - Member
Think the future will probably end up with a little black box in all cars by law. You crash or get pulled over then plod plugs into your box and gets your speed out. Either that or they connect it to GPS and automatically send you the fine....
I seem to remember some company (maybe Post Office) considering that for their vans now.
I think you'll find most modern cars already have this and the information is stored in the engine management computer........IIRC someone was jail using evidence obtained from the car after an accident.
The other thing I really like I have seen used in france where a N road goes thru a town. A speed sensor near the start of the speed limit. If a car goes thru above the limit all the traffic lights on the main road turn red.
That is a genius idea!
Seriously, it is impossible for you to concentrate on not killing me while only driving at 30mph? You see, I find I can manage not to fall off my bike or crash it into anything without riding like a giant Black & Decker, and if I'm going gently I don't feel the urge to play with myself, fart about on my iphone or whatever it is you all do to relieve the boredom of keeping yor speed under control. Maybe I should learn to drive just so I can empathise with the problems you face... 😉