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I hear some people with driving licenses have killed people using cars. Can we take cars out of private ownership please?
Meanwhile the elephant in the room is that plenty of people who have fantasies of being Sebastien Vettel are allowed to hold driving licenses, and I'd wager that far more people have been killed by those than by people using firearms.
lazybike - Member"Of course its all about violent fantasies"
do you really believe that about every gun owner?
Yes - apart from those who use it as a tool.
there is no other reason
I enjoy clay pigeon shooting, and am in the process of going through the licencing. After I get the licence, I'll get a couple of guns (12 bore for me, possibly a .410 for my son's use - clearly only under my supervision), which will be stored either at the club or at home. If the guns are at home, they'll be in an approved cabinet in the cellar, with the ammunition in a separate cabinet.
Obviously I [i]could[/i] turn into a nutter, get the guns out and go on a rampage. But I have a large selection of lethal items around the house at present, not the least of which are very large and sharp kitchen knives. In the garden are some extremely nasty (if used in the wrong way) axes. What makes you think I'm likely to be any more of a nutter with a shotgun than I am with anything else?
aracer - Member
Meanwhile the elephant in the room is that plenty of people who have fantasies of being Sebastien Vettel are allowed to hold driving licenses.
Or those who flout the speed limit on motorbikes. Let's not forget them.
nicf - its simply that is far easier to kill with a gun. Quicker, easier and from a distance.
A gun has no other use other than killing. thats what they are for.
nicf - its simply that is far easier to kill with a gun.
No it isn't. I could walk up to 20 people on the street and more of them could kill with a car than a gun.
You are trolling VERY badly - step away.
maybe so , but soldiers fantasise about war not guns...You'll find that soldiers view their rifles, guns and pistols as tools far more so than any gamekeeper does.
There should be absolutely no private firearm ownership at all. It should be like the library system.
I'm close to TJ on this one.
How about guns/ammo used for sport/leisure are held at Police stations, released only when justified (competition, shoot etc), with penalties for late return? Or something like that?
I too see no need for them to be held at home.
TandemJeremy - MemberAnd its so clearly rigorous and keeps out the violent fantasists
We have very few shootings, so perhaps it does.
Its not utter rubbish - Ryan at Hungerford, Hamilton, Raoul Mort. All legally held guns, all violent fatasists, all clearly unfit to hold, non had legitimate excuse to have the guns.
But is there an minority of legally-held gun owner/murderers creating more media interest when the majority of gun crime is carried out using illegally held weapons? I have absolutely no idea if this is the case but I reckon that reporting the former sells more newspapers and that lots of people are relatively desensitised to the latter.
Nice one and also where will I get a bit of casual work as a beater? Although we don't really get paid as they only pay 25 pound and then take you to the pub and you spend 35 pound?????? Uhmm another helping hand to the rural community. No doubt Tandem ar*e hole thinks the country should only be used for his personal cycling benefit?Nick - Member
Where will I get my free pheasants, geese and woodcock?
Its not a troll too tall - its the unpleasant truth that the violent fantasists cannot see.
Apart from a very few people like farmers who need guns as a tool then there is no reason at all for anyone else to have them - its all about killing things and anyone who kills for fun is mentally unfit to hold a gun
A gun has no other use other than killing. thats what they are for.
Sorry, that's just not true. My air rifles have never killed anything, and I don't intend to use shotguns for anything other than clay pigeon shooting.
A gun has no other use other than killing. thats what they are for.
Richard Faulds would beg to disagree.
TJ Recent? Hungerford was, what, 1987??? And, AFAIK, Moat didn't have a licence. Even if he did, pretty sure he used a sawn-off shotgun, which would be illegal to hold even if you did have a licence.
So, "all" of the gun murders that were committed with legally held guns are Hungerford ('87?), Dunblane ('96), Cumbria ('10) and now this latest. Four incidents in 25 years?
And how many murders have been committed with illegally held guns (not including IRA types, let's exclude them for fairness)in the last 25 years?
"I don't know" is the answer tbh, but you've clearly not got anything better to do, so why don't you find out and let us know? I reckon it's gonna be more....
in fairness, 2 out of 3 happened before existing gun laws.(hamilton the cause of the change). I don't know how that would have affected their outcomes mind, worth pointing out for discussive purposes.TandemJeremy - Member
Its not utter rubbish - Ryan at Hungerford, Hamilton, Raoul Mort. All legally held guns, all violent fatasists, all clearly unfit to hold, non had legitimate excuse to have the guns.
So Olympic level sport doesnt count then TJ?
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_Summer_Olympics [/url]
How about guns/ammo used for sport/leisure are held at Police stations, released only when justified (competition, shoot etc),
I went foxing at 11 at night twice last week, for a local farmer who was having problems with foxes
when do you propose it would be OK for me to pick up and return my rifle?
nearest police station is five miles away - nearest police station with an open enquiries desk is ten miles away, this is open office hours only...
Raoul Mort. All legally held guns
Source? (Rhetorical question TJ, I know you don't have one because that's incorrect).
however far too many people have guns simply to fufill their fantasises
Source? (Rhetorical question TJ, I know you don't have one, because you've just made that up).
People who want to kill people will kill people, whether guns are available or not, just look at the roman empire, or 1066.
More laws banning more stuff is not the answer, it's better use of the current laws and enforcement of legislation and guidelines.
its the unpleasant truth that the violent fantasists cannot see
The unpleasant truth is that you cannot see anyone elses point of view.
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Gun Deaths
Number of Deaths from Firearms Injury - United Kingdom, 1997 to 2006
Figures include deaths with a Coroner's verdict of accident, suicide, homicide and undetermined intent.
Answer given on 25 October 2007
Year
Number
1997 - 198
1998 - 229
1999 - 207
2000 - 204
2001 - 193
2002 - 181
2003 - 187
2004 - 191
2005 - 185
2006 - 210
In a previous parliamentary answer the figures for 1994, 1995 and 1996 were given as 341, 358 and 254 respectively
interesting to note quite a drop after the dunblane legislation.
I recently went clay shooting and enjoyed it. If it were something I wanted to pursue I'd be happy to keep the shotgun at the local club and use it as and when. However if I were into shooting birds then I'm sure it would be more practical to keep the gun at home. It seems that there are a large number of shotgun owners and a very small number of shootings I can't see the sense in penalising honest people for the crimes of a very few nutters.
no its notits all about killing things
Kenny - the only reason for holding a gun that is not a tool is to fufuill violent fantasises. there is no other reason. People will attempt to justify its all about sport but its actually all about killing and blood lust.
I go shooting.
It would be unfair to punish the masses because of the actions of a few.
TJ, you are not very good at this variety of troll. Go for a jog or something.
its actually all about killing and blood lust.
No it's not. Would you like me to post you a brace of pheasant for the pot? They're free range, and very healthy too. Or are you vegan, as clearly eating any meat would be all about killing and blood lust too.
Fishing rods, they're used to kill things too for pleasure. Yeah I know some catch and release. But most are for killing animals to eat, yummy fish. Guess in TJ world we'll be banning them. But it's for the best we should try and distance ourselves from our food and how it gets to the table.
Kenny - the only reason for holding a gun that is not a tool is to fufuill violent fantasises. there is no other reason. People will attempt to justify its all about sport but its actually all about killing and blood lust.
Playstations should be banned for the same reason.
And fishing.
And archery.
And paintballing.
And historical war reenactment societies.
And dungeons and dragons.
For someone who works in the field of mental health, you really know **** all about the issue, don't you TJ
seosamh77 - don't suppose you've got any analysis of how many of those were caused by legally / illegally held guns have you?
It's just that there's a bit of a discrepancy between those figures and the four incidents TK cites as evidence that "all" these deaths are caused by the legally held ones...
Kenny - the only reason for holding a gun that is not a tool is to fufuill violent fantasises. there is no other reason. People will attempt to justify its all about sport but its actually all about killing and blood lust.
There's not a great deal of blood lust in target shooting. Do you feel the same way about fencing and archery?
Kenny - the only reason for holding a gun that is not a tool is to fufuill violent fantasises. there is no other reason. People will attempt to justify its all about sport but its actually all about killing and blood lust.
And yet again you're holding out your opinion as fact. I repeat, I haven't killed anything with my air-rifles, nor do I intend to. Same with shotguns. No blood lust, no Rambo fantasies.
Or do you know something about me that even I don't know?
People will attempt to justify its all about sport but its actually all about killing and blood lust.
There are many disciplines in shooting just like cycling. You can't compare a bi-athlete intentions to one of a big game hunter like you can't compare a bmxer to a tourer.
This is not a troll. Its the unpalatable truth. Gun ownership is all about killing things.
cynic-al - Member
How about guns/ammo used for sport/leisure are held at Police stations, released only when justified (competition, shoot etc), with penalties for late return? Or something like that?
Please... No. After seeing in the news about dodgy coppers (I think it was in Durham, not sure though) selling on seized weapons instead of destroying them a while ago, and now the stuff stolen from police stations, I'd rather have mine at home. Plus, do you really think that they will allow reasonable access to said pieces of property when the owner wants to get to them for, say, pigeon shooting or flighting on an estuary early in the morning? What about rabbiting at night?
In the past when something as unfortunate and tragic as this has happened, the existing laws have been judged enough. Yes, there might be scope for improvement in assessment/identification of holders with depression, but the vast majority of certificate holders are sensible, reasonable people. As has been said before, most shootings happen with illegal firearms, things like this tend to make the news more though.
Restricting/banning pistols had zero effect on their use in crime and murder, and banning privately held firearms full stop will not prevent deaths either.
TJ - I already pointed out to you that the last two 'massacres' were committed by Taxi Drivers
Plus all the other crimes they commit:
http://byfleet.surreyherald.co.uk/2011/07/taxi-driver-convicted-of-west.html
http://london-taxi.co.uk/three-years-for-addison-lee-driver-convicted-of-manslaughter/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-16300843
http://www.leylandguardian.co.uk/news/local/sex_assault_cab_driver_was_a_killer_1_3861774
Latest Stats:
580k Shotgun Certificates
142k Firearms Certificates
You can assume a fairly high level of holders having both
78K Licences Taxis's
155k Licened Private Hire Vehicles
With a total of 299k Licenced Taxi Drivers
So - fairly similar numbers in the grand scheme of things, yet which group is disproportionally represented in crime and Murder? yep, you got it!
[b]
Clearly the solution to this wave of needless slaughter is that we should ban Taxi Drivers[/b]
So is owning a fishing rod
TJ. I used to shoot. Target shooting. Little pieces of paper. And I've done some clay pigeons too.
Hunted "live" prey once (rabbits). Didn't enjoy it.
Did enjoy shooting though.
I don't seem to fit your neat unifying theory. Perhaps that's cos it's complete b******s?
Gun ownership is all about killing things in my opinion.
FTFY, TJ. Unless, of course, you have some FACTS to back up your assertion. (Rhetorical question, BTW, as you don't)
Of course one could argue that a B&Q store is a veritable armoury; axes, sledgehammers, circular saws etc..if somebody flipped with such a tool then the outcome would be far better than if that person had access to a firearm. You can run away from or tackle an assailant brandishing a petrol strimmer. This is not so easy if said assailant has a semi auto .22 rimfire rifle and a couple of full mag's.