This happened to me over the weekend and I have been chewing over it since – I was at a Give Way in a motor home wanting to turn right (so not able to move quickly). The turn was on a blind corner so I couldn't see traffic approaching from the right. Unfortunately, just as I committed to the manoeuvre, a car came around the corner at quite a speed and had to brake quite hard to avoid an accident then proceeded to deliver the usual expletives you would expect in such circumstances.
However it was a narrow B road and there was signage on the approach advising drivers to slow down due to the hidden turn and approaching series of bends. I think his speed was not suitable for the conditions and he hadn't anticipated the potential for vehicles pulling out of the signposted junction.
Thinking on it, I don't know what else I could have done - it was simply really bad timing as I could have waited there all day and I would never have been in a better position to know if a car was about to suddenly round the bend.
Thankfully he managed to slow enough and there wasn't an accident but it was quite close to ramming the side of the motor home right where my two daughters were sat in the back – and I can't imagine there is much side crash protection in the side of those things!
Thoughts please...
The other driver would have been going too fast if he'd hit you.
Doesn't sound like you did anything wrong, and fortunately the other driver stopped in time. Placing blame will do no good, I'd recommend you stop dwelling on it and move on with your life.
This is probably one of those that isn't black and white...
You shouldn't pull out unless it's safe to do so. It's your responsibility to make it so.
The other driver should be driving in a manner that is suitable for conditions, visibility etc.
Had there been an accident, I suspect it would be your fault and the other driver would have contributed to the scale/extent of the outcome through his speed etc.
Not sure that's what you want to hear...
Thankfully he managed to slow enough and there wasn’t an accident
Clearly he was going exactly the right speed. No, I’m kidding. He was going too fast to allow sufficient margin. Similarly, he could have rounded the blind corner and found an old lady dawdling along on her bicycle, or a tractor doing similar. If he can’t see beyond the point he can safely stop his vehicle, he’s going too fast.
But perhaps his speed was just about ok. Real problem was his attitude to finding an obstacle the other side of a blind corner. Not your fault.
What could you have done differently? Not much, by the sounds of it. If you go ploughing around blind bends ignoring warning signs about junctions, you shouldn't act all aggrieved when you encounter someone pulling out.
Obviously please post a streetmaps view of the junction so the thread can 'make progress' to the normal driving god vs driving god bunfight.
You shouldn’t pull out unless it’s safe to do so. It’s your responsibility to make it so.
So he should have pulled over and written to his MP?
I’m sorry, you obviously haven’t driven on country roads much. And neither had the guy hurtling towards the OP.
Edit: apologies boblo I’ve reacted quite strongly to your response. You’re right it’s not black and white and I’m painting a picture in my head of the situation based on a brief description. I’m picturing the kind of narrow lanes near my house which are barely wide enough for two vehicles to pass, where I often encounter vehicles travelling too quickly round blind bends. So forgive me getting a bit spikey and don’t take it personally
Definitely your fault for driving a motorhome, you massive rolling road block pain in the arse that you are
Real problem was his attitude to finding an obstacle the other side of a blind corner
Since the other driver is presumably not on here to defend himself, it's possible his poor response was because he'd scared himself. I've occasionally scared myself by doing something stupid and my first instinct is sometimes aggression/anger (not expressed, just felt), even if I know I was to blame. Human innit.
The other drivers was driving to the conditions as they where able to stop in time to avoid an impact.
Driving country roads is just something you get used to over time and nothing to see here.
At least it's not a caravan !
Other driver going too quick TBH.
You might have been found at fault if things ended badly but it sounds like the other driver had no good reason to get shirty with you. Some junctions are just more dangerous than others
Obviously please post a streetmaps view of the junction so the thread can ‘make progress’ to the normal driving god vs driving god bunfight.
I have tried to find the turn on Google Maps but I can't find it - it's an access road to Maentwrog Gorge in Snowdonia.
You might have been found at fault if things ended badly but it sounds like the other driver had no good reason to get shirty with you.
Yeah - that's about how I see it TBF.
Definitely not your fault, there could've been anything around the bend from his perspective. You should obviously do what you can to avoid any situation arising, creeping out the junction and opening the windows to try and hear approaching vehicles perhaps. Just file it under 'dickhead who needs to take up no more of my thoughts' and move on.
What could you have done differently? Not much, by the sounds of it.
Perhaps turn left and then find a safer place to change direction - without seeing or knowing the location difficult to say how high risk it was or how viable an option that was. Another alternative would have been to ask another person to help guide you out by walking to the apex of the bend, but again that assumes you can safely stop to pick them up again, and that there is someone to do that.
Another option, which people seem to have forgotten, is that their motor vehicle is fitted with an audible device for alerting other motor users to their presence.
The other driver avoided an accident so difficult to lay blame for your fright there. Had he crashed perhaps he was going too fast.
No one it’s an accident.
No luck catching those swans then?
Perhaps turn left and then find a safer place to change direction
If I had done that then the accident would still have happened - he would have just rammed me from behind instead.
Another option, which people seem to have forgotten, is that their motor vehicle is fitted with an audible device for alerting other motor users to their presence.
But what if there had been a cyclist in the vicinity?
Anyway, no such thing as a RTA these days.
Another option, which people seem to have forgotten, is that their motor vehicle is fitted with an audible device for alerting other motor users to their presence.
Thats what donif I have to go somewhere with zero visibility. Theres one particular humpback bridge I do reasonably often that you can see nothing over and that even has signs at both sides telling you to do it. Pleased I don't live next to it mind.
Right - I have found the bit of road...
@52.937999,-4.0026924,3a,75y,225.54h,79.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjG8OFfst26fn-bQTgL7THg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656">This is what he would have seen just before he rounded the corner
(Note the signpost showing the junction on the corner)
@52.9370391,-4.0041532,3a,75y,20.87h,68.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjOQKYRef0aGqeSVQ1_xmsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656">And this is what I could see of the corner to my right
My personal opinion is, if there's no sign of another vehicle when I start the manoeuvre, then it's tough and same goes the other way round.
Legally I have no idea on the outcome if there was a collision but the other driver needs to wind his kneck in.
What @goldfish24 said:
If he can’t see beyond the point he can safely stop his vehicle, he’s going too fast.
I apply the same when MTBing but know not everyone - not even everyone I ride with - does that. Quite a useful excuse for how slow I am...
Right – I have found the bit of road…
Oof… that’s a really nasty junction. Much as I have protested above I could easily fall into the trap of travelling at a fair speed round that gentle bend on a wide enough stretch of road, not realising the subtle junction signage meant there was a give way right on the inside of the blind bend, and ended up in the same situation as the driver that nearly collided with you. Id be wrong but I could see myself making that mistake. I’d like to think I’d be apologetic, and slow enough to just stop, but I can understand the view above that the driver could just be stunned and react by arguing. Either way, still not your fault. With the benefit of hindsight (you had moments to consider this junction) I would consider turning left and accelerating quickly as poss in future and doubling back when safe to do so.
I don’t think a horn is mitigation for entering a blind section of road. It’s barely effective and it’s a nuisance.
If you pull out into a road from a junction and a car hits you in the side then it's pretty nailed on your fault just as someone going into the back of you is their fault.
There's not really much ambiguity, it is your responsibility to join the new carriageway safely.
Your difficulty is showing that he was not in view when you started your manoevure, or his excessive speed. If he genuinely was not in view, you pulled out as briskly as you could to minimise the danger, then there is nothing "at fault" about your driving. However, unless he locked up his brakes, and skidded leaving evidence of excess speed, how would you evidence his negligent driving, when the rpesumption is on you to emerge safely?
This is why I counsel people to get dashcams. Only today I have had to tell an insured he was at fault for a third party pulling off from a parked position by the side of the road into his path. The insured would not have been visible to the driver pulling off, and you see the insured turn into the road from a t junction at the same time the driver pulls off, so the insured has effectively turned, accellerated off from virtually stationary and then hit the other driver 40 yards down the road. If it wasnt for their CCTV, I'd have been defending it to the hilt on a "you pulled out". basis. Its surprising how effective cctv/dashcam footage can be.
There’s not really much ambiguity, it is your responsibility to join the new carriageway safely.
I can see your logic, but it is impossible to join that carriageway safely without a banksman.
This is why I counsel people to get dashcams.
However dashcams only pint forwards or backwards - the only footage one would have recorded in my situation was the beautiful scenery!
I can see your logic, but it is impossible to join that carriageway safely without a banksman.
Doesn't matter. The car already on the carriageway in question has absolute right of way unless there are signs to the contrary.
There are plenty of dodgy junctions around but that doesn't change things reallyin this respect.
Not really sure what you want to hear...clearly had there been an accident it would have been your fault, but there wasn't, so forget about it
I have had a similar experience where I questioned what (if anything) I could have done differently. Good on you for thinking about it after the event rather than flipping the bird and driving on.
As to what you could have done differently... Did you have your Drivers window open to listen for oncoming cars? I thought I was a bit weird for doing this when turning right under similar circumstances, but my sons Driving instructor told him to do exactly that at one of the challenging junctions on the local driving centre route.
Doesn’t matter. The car already on the carriageway in question has absolute right of way unless there are signs to the contrary.
But as has been mentioned above - what would the the legal outcome had I been turning left and he drove into me? I am not trying to absolve myself of blame here, but in all my years of driving (over 35 years) I have never been in this situation and I am genuinely interested in hearing different opinions (of which there are already).
Did you have your Drivers window open to listen for oncoming cars?
I did and couldn't hear anything (above the noise of the engine and two 12 yr olds buzzing about the fact they were about to go canyoning).
Not really sure what you want to hear…
I don’t think the OP wants validating that they’re right or wrong, but discussing/thinking about a near miss is good to educate and avoid in future. We call it Lessons Learned in engineering/management.
If he can’t see beyond the point he can safely stop his vehicle, he’s going too fast.
This was the advice from the former police driving instructor our company employed to re-educate us.
On country roads assume there’s a stationary tractor* over ever blind summit and behind every blind bend - if you’re lucky the spiky bits are facing away from you.
Drive accordingly because some day you’ll be right.
*or turning motorhome
I don’t think the OP wants validating that they’re right or wrong,
Absolutely this - I don't feel I could have done much differently in the circumstances but for my kids hearing some random stranger calling me an effing anchor and for them to think I am a bad driver (as has been said since) probably bothers me more 😂
At least I didn't stoop to the level of the other driver and join in - that's a bonus.
We can ignore the fact that the OP was in a motorhome - might be a cylist , milkwagon, bin lorry, tractor, mobility vehicle or any other slow moving vehicle, and for some of those some of the solutions above aren't remotely practical (man with a white flag).
Given it's a blinf bend, and there is an onus on the driver on the main road to drive in a way that means he can stop in time I think it is far from certain you would be to blame otherwise some of those people could never get out safely (legally) as they can never see far enough to get a safe time window
The car already on the carriageway in question has absolute right of way unless there are signs to the contrary.
This is a very dangerous way to think.
Surely you shouldn't drive - or cycle - so fast that you can't stop in the distance that you can see is clear and safe?
I'm not claiming I'm this perfect by the way!
clearly had there been an accident it would have been your fault,
This isn't clear at all!
Highway code rule 126: "Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear. "
If you round a bend and hit a stationary vehicle it's not 'clear' that it's their fault and not yours.
I once came round a bend on a big A-road at 60ish and had to break pretty firmly to avoid a recently fallen tree ( I was first on the scene). It was a good wake-up call...
doris5000
Free Member
clearly had there been an accident it would have been your fault,This isn’t clear at all!
Well it is really. The traffic on the main carriageway always has right of way over joiners unless signed otherwise. That's it. No conditions, if, buts or maybees.
It's true there are junction designs that are less than helpful but that doesn't trump the above simple fact.
If it did, we'd have all sorts of excuses being made up why it's not the joiners fault etc and there'd be (even more) chaos.
And a short answer to the OP's original question; probably both at fault.
The OP for pulling out when they don't have right of way and the 3rd party for not driving within conditions/ability.
Highway code rule 126: “Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear. ”
Yeah you see that’s not definitive. I was travelling south down the A1 the other week, a car pulled out into my path to head south. I accelerated around them as it was impossible for me to stop, accelerating meant I was able to pass them before the on coming lorry hit me. The car occupants shit their pants as 2 tonne of SUV skimmed past them. They past me on the dual carriageway way, I smiled and waved giving a little laugh. They laughed back, waved and carried on to get a clean pair of pants. They pulled out just as I was approaching the junction, I’d have to be 20mph to stop in time.
I’ve been biting my tongue and trying not to argue, but
Doesn’t matter. The car already on the carriageway in question has absolute right of way unless there are signs to the contrary.
And
The traffic on the main carriageway always has right of way over joiners unless signed otherwise. That’s it. No conditions, if, buts or maybees.
Just no no no no no. Such a dangerous attitude. Confusing Rights with Risk.
The situation described by the OP is not about providing the oncoming vehicle on the main carriage way with a RIGHT of way. The driver departing the give way (the OP) has not removed anyone’s right of passage, because he cannot see anyone coming. He has not denied anyone anything for his own gain. So, let’s switch to the driver on the main carriage way. He is continuing along a road, within his rights. Were there a fallen tree round the bend, would a court find that the tree had consciously removed his right of way, or that he had ignored the risk of a stationary object round the bend? Would it be fair or reasonable for the driver on the main carriage way to tell the tree it was a farting banker in front of his little tree babies?
Can anyone think of any other recent issues where people misunderstand the interactions of risks and personal “rights”?
I’ve been drinking. I think I shall go to bed now.
But Drac - that's npt the same - that's a mistake on their part as they should have seen you coming, and assumed you had right of way.
A good argument to that is that if it was foggy and you could only see 50 metres would you drive the same speed, safe in the assumption that the driver on the main road always had priority
If there was an accident then you would be struggling to prove the other driver was speeding (he would deny speeding), I used to have to pull onto a fast road from a side street with limited vision ( once you started pulling out you were committed) and some fool on a motorbike used to hammer down the road (suspect nearly 100 mp/h) I reported it to the cops as I suspected the guy was on the same shift as me and all they could say was 'I have seen that bike it looks great' I only reported it in case someone else or myself pulled out in front of this fool.
At least it’s not a caravan !
Or a tractor with a 6 furrow reversible plough on the back. Or a artic tipper with 20 ton of stone.
Etc etc. At least with a caravan you stand more chance of going straight through & out the other side.
Every morning I'm in a similar position. I need to turn right at a T junction & there's a brow of a hill to the left. Many is the time I've pulled out when It's clear only to get some crank who's either late for work or can't wait to get there to come flying past at 60 (or more) straight after.
If there was an accident then you would be struggling to prove the other driver was speeding
Alternatively the other driver would struggle to explain why they didn’t stop when they should have been driving to the conditions. It really isn’t cut and dried which is why I keep replaying it in my head.
Alternatively the other driver would struggle to explain why they didn’t stop when they should have been driving to the conditions. It really isn’t cut and dried which is why I keep replaying it in my head.
No, I was doing 40 and this guy suddenly pulls out in a campervan I was sure he seen me (no witnesses you are struggling to prove otherwise, BTW I do not doubt you for a second)
It is not who is in the wrong it is how can you prove YOU weren't in the wrong.
