[Closed] Podium girls

We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.

It's a difficult one, because on the one hand it impacts on the employees directly, and on the other it's supporting an unequal system that does require change. So, who cops it? Society, or the individual?

I think I'd err on the side of society if it was that simple.

Applying the same logic to pop videos and Elizabethan actors seems false. I suppose they have the back up that they are using skill/talent in their dancing/singing/acting rather than just being decorative. Quite nuanced though, depending on the performer and on how subjective you want to be.

Peyote

It's a difficult one, because on the one hand it impacts on the employees directly, and on the other it's supporting an unequal system that does require change.

What system is that exactly?

What system is that exactly?

The system that allows females to be treated as second class citizens compared to males.

We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.

It's a difficult one, because on the one hand it impacts on the employees directly, and on the other it's supporting an unequal system that does require change. So, who cops it? Society, or the individual?

I think I'd err on the side of society if it was that simple.

Well that clears that up...

I tried, what do you want?

Some titillation, dinner on the table with the washing up done?

I tried, what do you want?

You were replying to this:

We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.

We're struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.

Who are you speaking for?

Who are you speaking for?

All those struggling to work out exactly what action people do want.

and what would I like?
something like this
[url= https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/33931810545_9a00e2e6b2_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2808/33931810545_9a00e2e6b2_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/TGrp7i ]EWS17_Tasmania_Race-2844[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/143752613@N06/ ]Enduro World Series[/url], on Flickr
[url= https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2915/33546496450_70d1766c09_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2915/33546496450_70d1766c09_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/T7oyDQ ]EWS17_Tasmania_Race-2863[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/143752613@N06/ ]Enduro World Series[/url], on Flickr
Grown up, people celebrating and no need for some extra totty

Peyote

What system is that exactly?

The system that allows females to be treated as second class citizens compared to males.

I wasn't aware that women were second class citizens in France. What rights or privileges are they lacking there?

Yeah, that would be good Mikewsmith!

They're currently discussing podium girls on ITV4's TDF coverage.

It's France, they have a different attitude. No Podium girls = no pay for them. OK it may be pocket money buts in their pockets

I wasn't aware that women were second class citizens in France. What rights or privileges are they lacking there?

I don't know, but if they echo what is happening here in Britain then there's plenty to Google. Check out the 50:50 campaign for equal representation in parliament for a start. I'd be surprised if there wasn't equivalents in France, but happy to be corrected.

I wasn't aware that women were second class citizens in France. What rights or privileges are they lacking there?

jambalaya - Member
It's France, they have a different attitude

Bustaspoke - Member
They're currently discussing podium girls on ITV4's TDF coverage.

Ooh, we should discuss that sometime! 😀

something like this

So hair covered, baggy fleece and jeans.

Meanwhile the blokes can be bare headed and wear t-shirts.

Are you actually in the Taliban?

and what would I like?
something like this

The big difference being is that the EWS, while enjoying sponsorship revenues and is a commercial entity, isn't anything like the scale of the TdF. For ASO to sell high ticket price sponsorship to global brands (that pay for the event and the required profit levels to deliver to investors & shareholders), they need the large scale "show/spectacle" elements like the presentations etc as that's the stuff commercial sponsors like.

It's no good saying "ASO shouldn't have it" unless there's a viable source of replacement funding to replace the media exposure that sponsors pay for - and sponsors like things like awards, prizegivings etc.

it was about 3c, point being organisers handed the prizes to the winners on the podium, the podium was about the winners, nobody else needed to be up there to help them feel special or make it more of a spectacle

It's no good saying "ASO shouldn't have it" unless there's a viable source of replacement funding to replace the media exposure that sponsors pay for - and sponsors like things like awards, prizegivings etc.

I thought he explained it quite well OOB:

Grown up, people celebrating and no need for some extra totty

No need to bait with Taliban etc. comments surely?

No need to bait with Taliban etc. comments surely?

I think there's a direct link. He's posting pictures of women dressed as he feels they should which is pretty much total coverage in baggy-ish clothes except a bit of face. (...and I suspect those pictures are taken somewhere colder than France in mid-summer.)

Meanwhile the blokes are in t-shirts.

Double standards?

I can't wait until all differences between genders, races and cultures are completely eradicated and we can surge forward as one amorphous grey blob of asexual blandness.

I see where you're going here, and I certainly think there's an element of society that are striving towards exactly that, but they can probably be filed as vocal minority at the more extreme end of the viewpoint. Every demographic has them.

Thing is, I don't see any harm in acknowledging that men and women usually have their differences, embracing it even, so long as it's with the caveat that we also acknowledge that were equals. Many folk don't, and that's the problem.

Similarly, I don't see the harm in someone using their attractiveness as an asset any more than someone using their brain. Rather, the problem comes when people start to see women as a life support system for a pair of breasticles. If someone is beautiful but thick as mince, is it fair for us to be judging them on that, or shutting down their career choices?

So I suppose the question is, are the podium girls sending a positive or a negative message? Are the spectators seeing them as positive role models who add a bit of glamour to the occasion, or as gratuitous T&A to be perved over?

I think there's a direct link. He's posting pictures of women dressed as he feels they should which is pretty much total coverage in baggy-ish clothes except a bit of face

I think there's a direct link. He's posting pictures of women dressed as he feels they should which is pretty much total coverage in baggy-ish clothes except a bit of face. (...and I suspect those pictures are taken somewhere colder than France in mid-summer.)

Meanwhile the blokes are in t-shirts.

Really? You don't think you're jumping to conclusions and making some pretty dodgy assumptions there?

I see people dressed in normal clothes celebrating.

edited to add - bin dun

Similarly, I don't see the harm in someone using their attractiveness as an asset any more than someone using their brain. Rather, the problem comes when people start to see women as a life support system for a pair of breasticles. If someone is beautiful but thick as mince, is it fair for us to be judging them on that, or shutting down their career choices?

You make a very good point here Cougar, the attitude towards someone based on their attractiveness, and the judgement of how intelligent/worthy etc they are reflects more on the judger than the judgee. Perfect case in point, I'm long term mates with someone who was a grid girl/PR girl for an energy drink. She funded her degree by doing it and is now their European marketing manager.

If someone is so blind as to say she a: shouldn't have had the PR/grid girl role as the job shouldn't exist b: it's a job for fit but thick people, I'd argue that reflects worse on them than someone who makes a slightly leery comment, as it suggests they think they're somehow intellectually or socially superior based on a first glance judgement.

The pic was showing people who had finished racing receiving the prizes with no need for models to wave them around or kiss them.

Ok, so what *do* you you want? Are you saying you want the podium to be exclusively for competitors plus one single prize giver? Can that prize giver be attractive? Female?

Are you saying that you'd be happy with attractive scantily clad women on the stage as long as they have a formal role in the proceedings that you approve of - like handing out bottles of bubbly?

I see people dressed in normal clothes celebrating.

Triffic. So what would you regard as abnormal clothes and what action do you want to prevent the wearing of abnormal clothes at events?

They're currently discussing podium girls on ITV4's TDF coverage.

it's a job for fit but thick people

...and, of course, thick people need jobs too. Once you start banning jobs because they're beneath people who draws the line? Is toilet cleaning unacceptable?

Ok, so what *do* you you want? Are you saying you want the podium to be exclusively for competitors plus one single prize giver? Can that prize giver be attractive? Female?

Now do I need to illustrate with pictures?

Evolutionary psychology? I'm not sure how accepted that is in scientific circles these days.

Cougar

I can't wait until all differences between genders, races and cultures are completely eradicated and we can surge forward as one amorphous grey blob of asexual blandness.

I see where you're going here, and I certainly think there's an element of society that are striving towards exactly that, but they can probably be filed as vocal minority at the more extreme end of the viewpoint. Every demographic has them.

Thing is, I don't see any harm in acknowledging that men and women usually have their differences, embracing it even, so long as it's with the caveat that we also acknowledge that were equals. Many folk don't, and that's the problem.

Similarly, I don't see the harm in someone using their attractiveness as an asset any more than someone using their brain. Rather, the problem comes when people start to see women as a life support system for a pair of breasticles. If someone is beautiful but thick as mince, is it fair for us to be judging them on that, or shutting down their career choices?

[b]So I suppose the question is, are the podium girls sending a positive or a negative message? Are the spectators seeing them as positive role models who add a bit of glamour to the occasion, or as gratuitous T&A to be perved over?[/b]

Pretty much a solid and very valid post Cougar. For the last part, I don't think it has to be an either or scenario but a grey area somehwere in between. But what I see as more important and which alluded to earlier is that this a very small and relatively innocuous aspect of this "horrible oppressive patriarchal system of female oppression".

If you watch Keeping up with the Kardashians I challenge you to not be shocked and depressed at just how horrible, self obsessed, vacuous and generally unpleasant a bunch of millionaire women can be. Then consider the reach and the influence they have over young women. It's infinitely more widespread and invasive across all media and more damaging than TDF podium girls could be.

I realsie there might be something of a failure in my logic here, certainly on the surface - ie that podium girls are just one tiny part of a society that champions the Kardashians but I don't believe that is the case. I would not be embarrassed if my daughter decided she wanted to earn some money on a TDF podium but I would be horrified if she acted in the stupid, self centered and completely cosmetic superficial level the Kardashians do.

We've had podium girls and page 3 girls long before there was anything like the Kardashians or Little Minx or whatever. One didn't create the other nor is one a symptom or indicator of the prevalence of the other.
I think trying to eradicate podium girls in the name of equality when it doesn't seem to "offend" anyone is as misguided as trying to force gender eqaulity on societies which are essentially equal when there are many in which women are actually oppressed.

For people to hand out prizes, for the podium to be about the racers and for the people to be there for something more than looking a bit nice...

Something more? Like what? Would you allow women to hand out additional prizes, like bubbly? What if they were attractive local tri-athletes would that be enough to warrant them being on stage?

For the money spent on totty to be invested into women's racing and promotion of women's sport.

I suspect there wouldn't be any money saved because without easyontheeye women to get the photos in the media they'd have to think up another gimmick which wuold be more expensive than paying a few students to stand about.

Now do I need to illustrate with pictures?

Words would help. You're just writing out a vauge wordy wishlist of wollyness. From what you've written there would be nothing to stop the organizers hiring two sexy team doctors/nurses, putting them in skimpy outfits and having them on stage getting recognition in photos with the Winners for being great medics. Except the real reason they'd be there would be to get the pitcures in the media.

Except the real reason they'd be there would be to get the pitcures in the media.

Perhaps you find it hard to imagine that people would be interested without the girls up there but it seems to work in most other sports.
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Evoltionary Psychology is a difficult subject. There is some serious accepted research in the area and i think it has a lot more to contribute. Unfortunately a lot of it is buried under people trotting out rubbish to support whatever stereotypes they have fixated out.

My experience of this is the exact opposite. Myself and my peers are all desperate for our kids to break out of what we regard as gender stereotypes and are frustrated that they won't. Far from wanting these roles to be fixed by nature we want them to be fixed by nurture. I've spent years trying to train my daughter to be interested in aviation and motorsport with no luck. Meanwhile my son got openly excited by cars and aircraft before he could walk. Conversely my wife wants to make cakes with both kids - guess which one's not interested.

With regards to the claims about women vs mens roles from my understanding the research currently indicates its a load of bobbins.

...and yet there's a news story today about women who can't find husbands willing to commit to marriage so they're freezing eggs in th ehope they will find a future husband. Pretty strong evidence that women are far keener to settle down and have kids than blokes.

...and yet there's a news story today about women who can't find husbands willing to commit to marriage so they're freezing eggs in th ehope they will find a future husband. Pretty strong evidence that women are far keener to settle down and have kids than blokes.

Can that prize giver be attractive? Female?

Of course they can but they shouldn't be employed in the job on those two criteria alone.

Well honestly we might as well ditch the cycling and just get Spearmint Rhino to organise the podiums then.

Would you ban Spearmint Rhino?

Perhaps you find it hard to imagine that people would be interested without the girls up there but it seems to work in most other sports.

You do realize I don't organize prize giving events, don't you? I'm just trying to work out exactly what rules you want in place of the current ones. If you simply just clearly stated the rules you want we could have a debate.

Of course they can but they shouldn't be employed in the job on those two criteria alone.

Great, so they could be very keen amateur cyclists who happened to be attractive & Female? That shouldn't be too hard to arrange and then everyone would be happy.

I think outofbreath has lost it, I really do. Have absolutely no idea what his view on the subject is, except to bait and argue the toss with what everyone else says.

honestly, time to give in and watch the conclusion to what could be a very exciting stage, who knows there might be a little bit of bikini action on a warm day to liven up the dull dull racing 🙁

I think outofbreath has lost it, I really do. Have absolutely no idea what his view on the subject is, except to bait and argue the toss with what everyone else says.

Yeh I'm bemused by that last post, no idea what point he's trying to make?

Have absolutely no idea what his view on the subject

no idea what point he's trying to make?

I don't really have a dog in this fight. When someone tells me what rules they want to replace the existing rules I'll have a think but it's very hard to get traction on what form a ban would take and who would be banned and on what grounds.

It is a sad relic of another era from an organisation which has failed to keep with the times.

And young women growing up have enough on their plate with hypocritical media standards and norms of "beauty", with perceptions of what women's roles are, without these girls being on the podium for no other reason than to titilate or to draw attention to sponsors products solely on the grounds of their appearance.

Just sad.

it's very hard to get traction on what form a ban would take and who would be banned and on what grounds.

Doesn't need to be banned, just needs to stop, it's not relevant, its 'old fashioned' and its completely unnecessary.