[Closed] Plane crash in the alps

[quote=chip ]I had a family member commit suicide, resulting in alcoholism an divorce for other family members.
Threw himself under a lorry, did not feel the need to take any one with him.

Not sure this one needs rehashing, but presumably throwing himself under a lorry was a relatively convenient thing for him to do at the point he decided he'd had enough and flying a plane into a hillside wasn't? Not trying to defend the pilot's actions if that is indeed what happened, simply to understand them - I do at least have some idea of the state of mind which leads you to think that ending your own life is the best course of action, and I doubt the consequences for the other people on board entered his thoughts much (which comment you can take however you like).

How sympathetic is the industry to mental health issues.
If a pilot began to feel unwell in himself, maybe even have been given a diagnosis from his GP.
Could you openly go to your employer seeking time off, or would you be effectively making yourself unemployable ending your career. So would instead carry on regardless while becoming more unwell.

The airlines could try looking after their pilots welfare, instead of screwing them At every opportunity. It costs a young pilot £100k to get his licence these days, with many starting salaries below 20k.

It costs many students 50k of debt to get entirely non-existent salaries or the minimum wage....

How sympathetic is the industry to mental health issues.

Not very from what I gather, the industry seems to be plagued by under reporting of health issues as pilots fear losing their licences.

and I doubt the consequences for the other people on board entered his thoughts much (which comment you can take however you like).

I'm fairly certain it did, most suicides are deliberate premeditated exercises done with a remarkable degree of calm.

[quote=chip ]Could you openly go to your employer seeking time off, or would you be effectively making yourself unemployable ending your career. So would instead carry on regardless while becoming more unwell.

Catch 22, isn't it? On both sides. Should the airline be more sympathetic, or should it ground pilots showing depressive tendencies?

Been thinking about this tonight, as it happens - I shan't warble on too much. Just - whether the idea occurs when jumping off a cliff or when piloting an airliner, I'm not sure we're in a position to judge "this method's all right, but that method has much collateral damage". We're talking about people in such mental distress that they want to end their own life - that's beyond my comprehension, and for the people who are quick to condemn, I would suggest it's beyond yours, too.

Not to speak on behalf of other people, but the apologists are not excusing the action (if indeed it was suicide, which we're some way from having proven) - for me it's just suggesting that, if you're saying he was chickenshit for taking 149 other people with him, you have no idea what it would have been like to walk a mile in his shoes.

[quote=Tom_W1987 ]It costs many students 50k of debt to get entirely non-existent salaries or the minimum wage....

I presume pilots have to actually make payments on their debt though.

What would you say about the Dumblane shooter or the lovely piece of work that was Elliot Rodger. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mysteries-love/201406/elliot-rodger-s-narcissism

I'm not sure I would myself feeling sorry for him at all, if it's the case that he did do this - I think more regret that the human mind can become so deranged, empathy for his parents no doubt. Society is better off with people like that locked away in Broadmoor.

I presume pilots have to actually make payments on their debt though.

Usually mummy and daddy have coughed the money up or they've got there the hard way by flying air taxis etc to begin with, you won't find many companies that offer 100k career development loans. 😆

If they did, I would have ****ed off to a private medical school by now.

[quote=Tom_W1987 ]What would you say about the Dumblane shooter or the lovely piece of work that was Elliot Rodger.

I'd say that they weren't at all comparable. I can't understand the thought processes involved with them.

I don't find myself feeling sorry for him at all, if it's the case that he did do this. Society is better off with people like that locked away in Broadmoor.

I'm not sure anybody is expressing sympathy. This is all based on supposition (hence I'm going to stop now as this thread is heading in the wrong direction again), but whilst all examples may have mental health issues, you don't lock away everybody with mental health issues.

but whilst all examples may have mental health issues, you don't lock away everybody with mental health issues.

Of course, but I think the types that I posted above fit the bill. I'm usually very, very sympathetic towards people who have disorders that most people stay away from (BPD, Bipolar and a Schizophrenic friend...I always have time for them and their problems) - there is however a type of person..... a type that I have come across before that just leaves chills down my spine (I'm not talking about your run of the mill psychopath) and that's where my sympathy ends.

I think that's where I will end my opinion now as well Aracer.

chip - Member

How sympathetic is the industry to mental health issues.
If a pilot began to feel unwell in himself, maybe even have been given a diagnosis from his GP.
Could you openly go to your employer seeking time off, or would you be effectively making yourself unemployable ending your career. So would instead carry on regardless while becoming more unwell.

How sympathetic would the flying public be? I've already seen a number of articles that state that he took some time off of flight school. And they seem to lean toward that being some sort of warning sign that he wasn't good enough...

But on the other hand, someone that says "I need a break" and takes one may very well know their limits and be more level headed than someone who grits it out.

As far as mental issues, should depression be an automatic disqualifier? So much depends on the circumstances. I'd say that it would be quite normal for a pilot (or anyone) to suffer from depression after the death of someone that they were close to. But 99.999% of people are able to get over that and move on with their life without killing themselves or anyone else.

They've done all sorts of studies on what factors make suicide more likely. Its easy to list a number of factors (divorce, stress, travel, shift work, etc.) and say that those people are more likely to commit suicide. But its just not possible to predict the behavior of any one individual with any certainty!

How sympathetic would the flying public be?

+1 Since the beginning of aviation the public have expected pilots to be superhuman, this I think, has fueled some rather ridiculous medical protocols that lead to pilots under reporting issues.

And that really is the last I will say.

How sympathetic is the industry to mental health issues.

Actually more than you might imagine. The rules were changed just recently to allow pilots to fly while taking certain prescribed psychoactive drugs. We're not talking about extreme or otherwise serious disorders, but for example, but something like PND or mild depression with a prescription drug combined with close medical examination and interview is allowed. This is only a recent change mind and the history of understanding before this was very much 'don't ask don't tell'. Pilots are also very good at looking out for one another. It is after all why there are two on the plane.

Usually mummy and daddy have coughed the money up

The subtext Tom is a little distasteful. You could just have easily used the word 'benefactor' but your choice of language is bit patronising and judgemental.

It does however cost a huge amount of money to qualify. I might be a bit sketchy on the details but this is the route my SO tool.

PPL, which I think cost at the time £50k (her dad worked 60 hour weeks as an Ostepath to finanec it), then you need to be taught how to fly a commercial plane and get a type rating on one. That might cost upwards of £75k these days and there's no guarantee of a job afterwards. £100k is probably an underestimate these days. I think there are loans available commercially to finance this but it's nothing like the terms of student debt and it's easily twice if not three times what most students will rack up.

A lot of pilots finance this from a first career; you see a lot of ex-lawyers or business types that have saved from a well paid job and maybe then combined those savings with a redundancy package for example.

BA has a programme that takes high calibre candidates on and trains them up commercially thereby avoiding the high cost of getting a type rating on a commercial airline, but they are, unsurprisingly, hugely selective.

My wife knows of at least one person from her original commercial flight school programme who passed and never went on to become a pilot. She herself spent two years working in air traffic control before getting a job with a small franchise airline in the UK.

She's also told me that the terms and conditions of some of the airlines are just appaling. £20k starting salary for the kind of responsibility and pressure you'd be under with EasyJet or, god forbid, Ryan Air is scary. Think 'junior doctor' and you're probably not far off (though they are limited to how many hours they can fly in a month).

Why not put a toilet in the cockpit?

there's no space to do that in existing aircraft is there?

Reports in Bild on the mental health history don't make good reading. When you consider that 10% of the male population can't be pilots just because they are colour blind it is a little surprising that a guy with a history of depression was still flying. The Bild report goes something along the lines of a recorded history of depression and a recent break up with his girlfriend.

if you're saying he was chickenshit for taking 149 other people with him, you have no idea what it would have been like to walk a mile in his shoes.

Mental illness is a complex personal issue however the vast majority who attempt suicide do seem to limit the impact to themselves. I heard Clarke Carlisle confirm that he had planned it meticulously and considered the impact on others so, whilst I'm not suggesting everybody will manage to do so, I find it hard to believe that a pilot contemplating suicide would have zero concept of the consequences of doing so on a commercial flight. I suppose it could have been an overwhelming impulse but in those circumstances I'd have expected some clear indications of his mental state to have 'leaked' out beforehand.

Impact to others:

Occassionally you get people on (and jumping off the 100ft drop) of Barton Bridge on the M60. The fall wont really impact directly on anyone elses well being/mortality.

However, theres another bridge and everytime I drive under its 120ft height I glance up because if someone does jump you are going with them.

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/police-closed-m62-after-concern-8131873

It's interesting the degree of sympathy and understanding that you see in relation to this story.

I'm going to draw a parralel with another case I am familar with as it's an interesting representatin of our attitudes and biases towards mental illness.

A close friend of my sister in law was suffering very badly with PND. it went undiagnosed and untreated. One day, her husband came home from work to find her in a semi-catatonic state in the living room. Upstairs he found his 12 month old and two year old sons both dead. She had killed them.

She was evaluated and sectioned and then spent two years being detained on the orders of the Home Secretary, then she was released and is now free. Most people we know, who also know the case, have nothing but sympathy for her because she did what she did while suffering from PND.

Contrast that to this case and compare the degree of sympathy and understanding that the co-pilot is receiveing (on this thread) and I think it's an interesting contrast. I think it shows a degree of bias, maybe based on gender maybe based on discriminating between socially acceptable forms of mental illness and other forms.

It's a thought but one that hopefully makes other people think.

All this talk about mental instability in the co-pilot, when what could be (as reported in Bild) just a really pissed off guy having just gone through a few issues that got on top of him.
There are lots of reports from his local area, the flying club, friends in his village, that are very adamant that the guy was a normal healthy human being.
It's more than a shame he wasn't able to talk his normal human feelings through with a friend, or work collegue even.

I don't know where the boundaries lie in situations like this, but who here hasn't at some point in thier functioning life had more than one fairly life changing event manifest itself on another and another to a point of being, well very pissed off to the point you do wonder if there's a point to you being here on Earth at all.

I fear it'll all be a witch hunt with a scapegoat and a lack of admittance by the industry he worked in taking at least a little responsibility for the outcome.

Such a very sad and thought provoking incident.

Tom - I'm afraid you are way off wrt the financial side of pilot training these days.

The flying schools have set up a huge training industry, playing on the glamorous side of the job, promising the earth to wannabe pilots, in terms of guaranteed jobs. They set up loans for you with their preferred provider. They train as many as they can, not how many are required, leaving newly qualified pilots desperate for a job, saddled with crippling debts.

The LoCo airlines take advantage of this, and a scam called "pay to fly" has been born. Basically, the pilot pays for the privilege of flying, with the hope of a permanent job at the end. Sadly, the airlines instead dump them off at the end of term, bringing in a newly qualified "free" replacement instead.

The days of building PPL hours, then air taxi, turboprop, regional, charter, then major have gone. Cheap is king.

Add to that the fact that the maximum flying limitations are now seen as a target to be extracted from every "flying unit" you can see why you may have some stressed, fatigued pilots out there.

Everyone seems to be wondering how we go about spotting people who may be prone to actions like this. Meanwhile some airlines just said you know what it's pretty hard to do and unreliable so let's just have a policy of 2 people on the flight deck as a precaution. This isn't hindsight, this is asking why some airlines and aviation authorities didn't have the foresight that others clearly did have.

Training. From what I've read the co-pilot had been an air steward since 2008 and trained at the Lufthansa flight school, that would suggest to me he didn't pay for the training it was provided by his employer. I imagine he paid for his PPL as do most people.

avdave, the reason it's not done, in my opinion, is that it doesn't make sense.
What would this extra person have done in this case? Would he have prevented the copilot from being able to crash the aircraft? I don't think so.
I think having that second person in the flight deck reduces rather than increases safety.

Jambalaya - a few majors pay for training, but the cost is taken out of your salary for the first 5-10 years. This does at least remove the stress of the loan, but not the financial burden. He was with Germanwings - the low cost subsidiary of Lufty, so I'm not sure how it works for them.

If this can happen under the watch of one of the big carriers, imagine what could happen at some of the less scrupulous carriers.

A close friend of my sister in law was suffering very badly with PND. it went undiagnosed and untreated. One day, her husband came home from work to find her in a semi-catatonic state in the living room. Upstairs he found his 12 month old and two year old sons both dead. She had killed them.

I can't even imagine, or even try to go think about what a mother suffering PND goes through and if its the worst what she suffers/happens afterwards.

Dads who take their kids with them in a fume-filled car I don't have much sympathy for.

She's also told me that the terms and conditions of some of the airlines are just appaling. £20k starting salary for the kind of responsibility and pressure you'd be under with EasyJet or, god forbid, Ryan Air is scary.

Seems generous compared with the US, where pilots qualify for food stamps! $22k starting salary http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/12/flying-your-plane-living-on-food-stamps/

Wrt the extra crew member on the flight deck, it opens another whole can of worms. It's the easiest way to infiltrate a sleeper into an airline. The barrier to entry to cabin crew training is far lower than pilot training. You are now also increasing the frequency of the cockpit being entered, with an obvious advance alarm of the door opening when the pilots call the cabin crew.

Airlines who already mandated 2 people on the flight deck, did so in order to cover the case on an incapacitated pilot, not for this scenario.

Dads who take their kids with them in a fume-filled car I don't have much sympathy for.

There you go Hora, you just proved my point perfectly. I do have very extensive experience of what PND looks and I can tell you that the burden is not just one the mother carries. It has a massive impact on their parnters to.

Indeed, I'm sure anyone who has lived with someone suffering from depression or other mental illness will confirm that it is incredibly hard for those around that person, to the extent that they themselves will experience a period of depression as well.

Dad's who take their kids into fume filled cars are as likely to be suffering from PND as the mothers they are trying to care for and yet you are less willing to show them sympathy.

That's precisely the bias I was referring to.

Seems generous compared with the US, where pilots qualify for food stamps! $22k starting salary http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/12/flying-your-plane-living-on-food-stamps/

It's scary isn't it. We looked into it a few years ago as I was offered a job with my current employer to go and set up an office in San Diego (I have family there and it would have been a dream job) but when we saw what the employment prospects were for mrs.geetee we binned the idea pretty quickly.

Footflaps - indeed, the regional airlines in the USA are dreadful. Have a google of the Colgan Air Disaster. Many US regional pilots were living in their cars in the crew car park.

Footflaps - indeed, the regional airlines in the USA are dreadful. Have a google of the Colgan Air Disaster. Many US regional pilots were living in their cars in the crew car park.

Not something you want to be thinking about when flying regional over there!

Colgan made the FAA tighten up duty times for Regional pilots. At the same time EASA are slackening them here, in the name of commonality amongst European states. Countries with higher safety regulations have had to slacken them to the new common standard.

New airlines like Norwegian are hiring pilots on a Thai contract, airline AOC based in Ireland, to circumvent local employment contracts and airline regulations. In a safety critical industry, it really is shocking.

A neighbour of ours hung herself leaving 4 kids after severe PND. It's desperate but I personally see a clear distinction between that which clearly impacts others in her family and flying a plane which is your day job into a mountain with 150 people aboard. I suspect the co-pilot had a grudge or was trying to prove some kind of point. A doctor on French TV last night said this was not in his opinion a suicide, it was intended to be more than that.

There is a little bit of the "law of unintended consequences" here as the anti-terrorist security door has been used to murder 150 people.

I don't see many people having any sympathy for what this guy has done.

If he was suicidal, it was a concious decision not to just blow his brains out in the privacy of his own house, or as others suggested take his favourite glider up and fly that into a mountain side.

Instead, in a very calculated manner he deliberately murdered 149 people.

I suspect the co-pilot had a grudge or was trying to prove some kind of point

and

If he was suicidal, it was a concious decision not to just blow his brains out in the privacy of his own house, or as others suggested take his favourite glider up and fly that into a mountain side.

Again, proof of the point that we have either conscious or unconscious biases in cases like this.

So out of curiosity, how do you judge the mother I know who killed her two children while suffering from depression? Is that more understandable and therefore more deserving of sympathy than the GermanWings case?

I find it interesting that some people on this thread are effectively accusing the pilot of a lack of empathy...

So out of curiosity, how do you judge the mother I know who killed her two children while suffering from depression?

The few instances I have read of fathers killing themselves and their children have all been the result of a bitter split up.

What was there motivation, did they kill there children as what they believed to be a service out of misguided love.
Or did they do it out of spite towards their partners " look what you made me do"

Both would be the result of a disturbed mindset but I would have little sympathy with the first and none for the latter.

I believe the pilot took these people with him to prove a point as above to someone.

Instead, in a very calculated manner he deliberately murdered 149 people.

The few instances I have read of fathers killing themselves and their children have all been the result of a bitter split up.

Well the end of that sentence could be 'that left an already emotionally and mentally fragile person in a state of great depression'

Consequently I don't think 'motivation' comes into it much. It's the product of someone who is not well mentally and either we are going to adopt at least a non-judgemental view of that for everyone or else a consistently sympathetic reading of it.

She killed [what she thought was] the root cause of her depression - there was a link between herself and her children.

Maybe. Maybe the pilot did the same. Maybe the pilot was angry at the world because the world had treated him unfairly and he attached his emotional disturbance to those that were most immediate to him; his passengers.

Point one, you've no real idea what was going on his mind (and we never will know) and point two, it's an inconsistent judgement that shows the inherent bias.

I wonder why so much time and money is being spent on an investigation when all that really needs to be done is ask on mountain bike web site

Tell me how

a) it wasn't calculated and
b) he didn't kill 149 people

He waited until the pilot left
He locked the door
He ignored the knock on the door
He ignored the CCTV
He hit the overide button for the keypad entry to the cockpit
He issued no communication
He put the aircraft into a controlled descent into a mountain side which would only have one outcome.

All of the above were concious and calculated decisions over a period of time with the outcome being the death of 149 people unrelated to him.

Sure but what's your point LHS?

Its quite natural for people to pissed a someone who takes other people with him on a suicide mission, and quite hard to understand any justification for it, shirly?

I don't think we'll ever know what happened, not 100%, but it currently looks like he murdered 149 people.

I suspect the co-pilot had a grudge or was trying to prove some kind of point.

Mindless speculation is a waste of time and most unwise. That seems to be all this thread is [ apologies to those saying the same thing to the wild speculations being aired here]

The point is to my previous post it was being implied that it wasn't calculated and he didn't murder 149 people and people are trying to suggest we should have sympathy for him. I disagree.

We do know his relationship with the pilot wasn't great from the voice recorder. One case of suicide, one of murder and 148 of manslaughter.