[Closed] Pentecost...........well i never.

Well while it is probably useless to attempt a defence I will do then leave it alone.

Ernie takes my comments somewhat out of context. I will only take the piss out of the religious if they attempt to use their beliefs to prove a moral superiority or to make a point in the secular world. The religious keep their beliefs private I will as well. Use your beliefs to claim your superiority to me then accept that I will not tolerate that.

It is not hypocrisy as I do not say one thing and do another. It is not bigotry as I will not treat them less. Its not bullying as I will not hold it against them personally.

I am intolerant of those who use their religious beliefs to claim a moral superiority or in support of a particular position. Keep it in private and I will respect your views and indeed on many occasions on here have said so.

Kenny is right to pick up on the inconsistencies in what I posted. Hopefully this post has explained it a bit more.

If someone want to worship then I will respect that. I am respectful in a house of worship of any sort. However if they want to use their belief to claim a moral superiority then they have brought their beliefs into the public sphere and as such their beliefs can and should be challenged. With my friends it is never discusssed.

Edit - nickf - crossed posts. I hope this gives a bit more context.

An example would be Muslims and alcohol. I respect their right to refuse alcohol and employed some Muslims in a nursing home who did not want to hand out the Sunday sherry. That was respected and I found ways around that. I would not tolerate them telling me that to hand out the Sunday sherry was wrong however - but they did not so there was no issue. its a live and let live
.

Ernie takes my comments somewhat out of context.

Keep it in private and I will respect your views

No you won't. You have claimed on this thread -

TandemJeremy - Member
Geetee - I loathe and despise religion and the religious, I believe [b]all people[/b] who believe in god(s) are feeble minded.

Not much grey area there. Certainly no distinstion between private and public declaration of views. Utter contempt seems a more apt description of your opinion than "respect".

Kenny is right to pick up on the inconsistencies in what I posted. Hopefully this post has explained it a bit more.

In truth, all it's really done has brought into sharper relief your inability to recognise your own bigotry.

Time to put the shovel down TJ.

trailmonkey - its the same as folk who believe in astrology or fairies.

In the edit above read about the past Muslim employees of mine. Bigotry would have been refusing to employ them or making or making them choose between their beliefs and their job. As it was I accommodated their beliefs. However if they had attempted to tell me I was wrong to serve alcohol I would have challenged them. If they had said anything to the people in my care then that would not have been tolerated at all.

I wouldn't dream of taking the piss out of them.

And you have to be some sort of idiot if you think you have the right to do so."

Prince Philip actually asked the question to a highly successful Aboriginal businessman - he was clearly taking the piss. I like pisstaking.

BOOOOM

But what about the religious people in your care TJ ? How would they respond to your views ? I find it hard to equate your usual liberal and mostly tolerant viewpoint with the abusive comments (and lets not pretend they were anything else, please) you've posted on here. To label ALL religious people as feeble minded and worthy of your loathing is a step too far, in my opinion. It's sad really, allowing yourself to get so wound up by what was, initially, just a crappy troll by ton.

😯

Bigotry would have been refusing to employ them or making or making them choose between their beliefs and their job

Bigotry would be calling them feeble-minded when you know nothing else about them other than that they believe in a God

I will only take the piss out of the religious if they attempt to use their beliefs to prove a moral superiority or to make a point in the secular world.

Use your beliefs to claim your superiority to me then accept that I will not tolerate that.

Keep it in private and I will respect your views and indeed on many occasions on here have said so.

CM will get back to you on this later tonight have been giving it some thought...had a dream about it [ NOT YOU] how odd - interesting though. I have som eideas for some experiments

we can run the experiments on here!! Maybe one of us has powers!!!

had a dream about it [ NOT YOU] how odd

I think you've overstepped a line on this 'respect' thing there.

I will answer barnsleymitch point.

I would never ever let it affect my dealings with those in my care. same as I would not let their views affect my care of people if they are racist or believe in ufos or astrology.

I have taken people in my care to church and sat in the church with them. In my own time not while being paid.

I have taken people in my care to church and sat in the church with them. In my own time not while being paid

...and some of your best friends are black?

other than Woppit is probably more honest and less insulting than TJ.

Phew!

Makes me feel better about being attacked by TJ for being a bit of a b'stard (apparently) during that previous marathon-length combat er, must be over a year ago by now...

Have a nice day, everybody! 😉

Have a nice day, everybody!

Oh right, Woppit! Impose you're value system on every one else! What if there are people out there who don't want a nice day. Do you still command them to have a nice day. Or maybe you were wishing it on them! Not very considerate or inclusive there. Up till you said that I would have said TJ was worse than you! Now you've just pipped him at the post!

😆 😆 😆

The fairies at the bottom of [i]my[/i] garden tell me that the tea leaves have said that it's in the stars that my personal god is rather displeased at TJ's attitude, but she'll let him off this once.

1) Why is your god(s) the true god(s) and other gods are false gods
2) What evidence for your god(s) existence exists?

Is there a reason you hold such strong views TJ? A direct experience?

I do find it amusing that being religious is linked to irrationality in a negative context. As though being irrational is completely unforgiveable! Clearly all humans are irrational so we should celebrate those differences like religious belief or always wearing green socks, and everything inbetween 🙂 FWIW, to me it seems perfectly clear that the dangers of religion stem from its rational applications, like using it as a tool for power and wealth.

the possibility that there is a controlling principle behind it

"No. That's just ordinary paranoia. Everyone in the univesre has that." - Slartibartfast.

No molgrips - the attitudes of [s]the [/s] [b]SOME [/b]god bothereres is an absolute disgrace.

The attitude of SOME atheists is a disgrace too. In fact, being a good person seems independent of religious affiliation in my experience.

TJ you are going to have to think a bit more carefully on threads like these before posting.

I would never ever let it affect my dealings with those in my care

I would suggest that by despising them and assuming they are feeble minded, you already have. IF that is indeed what you are doing.

I suspect you are gobbing off though in the abstract though, rather than accurately communicating your views though.

I suspect you are gobbing off though in the abstract though, rather than accurately communicating your views though.

I quite often find there is a big difference between the views you hold and the way you end up feeling about someone once you're confronted with their humanity.

I think TJ is getting carried away with a philosophical ideal and in reality the views he's expressing here probably aren't followed up by his actions with people he actually meets.

He wouldn't be the first person to misrepresent himself with ill communicated views on the internet....he won't be the last either.

I quite often find there is a big difference between the views you hold and the way you end up feeling about someone once you're confronted with their humanity

Exactly, and well put. When you're 15 or 16 you form these views in a bit of a vacuum, so they can be quite extreme. However as you grow older, meet lots of different people and have various experiences, you are confronted with lots of humanity and you can begin to see things from other points of view. And then you start assimilating lots of different points of view which is vital for a proper understanding of the world imo.

Ten quid says TJ will be praying on his deathbed, even for a split second.

Tolerance is the net result of the experience and emapathy for another person's humanity.

People who struggle with the experience of empathy often find it harder to accept other peopels' perspectives.

Those who are utterly devoid of the capacity for emapthy end up being sociopaths.

Junkyard - Member

I wouldn't dream of taking the piss out of them.

And you have to be some sort of idiot if you think you have the right to do so."

Prince Philip actually asked the question to a highly successful Aboriginal businessman - he was clearly taking the piss. I like pisstaking.

[b][i]So which are you an idiot or a hypocrit ?[/i][/b]

😕 Eh ? Yes I take the piss.......I am "a pisstaker", everyone who knows me knows that. And I wouldn't for a minute attempt to deny it.

But I don't take the piss out of someone's religion, I don't take the piss out of someone's mother, I don't take the piss out of someone's children, etc.

How difficult is it for you to work that out Junkyard ? Do you not understand the concept of "common-sense" ? Can you [i]really[/i] not see the difference between having a laugh and a joke, and being offensive and obnoxious ? ...... TJ in the example quoted, was talking about taking the piss out of someone's religion in a [i]deliberately[/i] offensive manner.

Are you pretending to be stupid by suggesting that it's all the same thing ? Or as a fully paid-up member of the PC Brigade can you genuinely not see the difference with a harmless joke and a deliberate attempt to be insulting and offensive ?

BTW unlike TJ, I'm perfectly happy for you to think I am [i]both[/i] an idiot and a hypocrite, so there's no need to chose between the two......'cause I quite frankly couldn't give a monkeys 😀

TandemJeremy - Member

I am intolerant of those who use their religious beliefs to claim a moral superiority........

However if they want to use their belief to claim a moral superiority ..........

Twice in one post you claim that your [i]only[/i] issue with someone who has religious beliefs is when they "claim a moral superiority". Which would probably be a valid claim if it wasn't for the fact that it's complete bollox.

No one with religious beliefs comes on here claiming "a moral superiority" and yet that doesn't stop you frothing at the mouth about religion. Furthermore I very much doubt that anyone in your real life ever claims to you to have a moral superiority over you because of their religious beliefs.

I don't think I can ever recalled anyone ever telling me, that they were morally superior to me because if their religious beliefs. And if they had, I would have just shrugged it off. Your whole justification for your offensive and insulting rants concerning people with religious beliefs is actually a non-issue. And for that reason I reckon it's bollox......just a feeble excuse.

Ernie - I have been told on here that all morality comes from god and as a non believer I cannot have any morals. Just one of the more overt examples and as I said I will never be offensive and take the piss until they are offensive to me by pushing their views onto me.

Leave me alone and I will leave them alone.

Leave me alone and I will leave them alone.

Except that loads of them probably are leaving you alone - you don't even know they're religious most of the time.

Again - the ones that proselytise are annoying, yes, but they don't all do that. In fact most don't. Many of them don't feel that they are superior.

I loathe and despise religion and the religious, I believe all people who believe in god(s) are feeble minded.

I think the religious, religion and belief in god as an incredibly regressive, negative, dangerous and harmful mental illness. It is a force of incredible harm and holds back the human race.

+1, especially the second paragraph. In this day and age the thought of people believing in religion is beyond me. I would agree with everyone to their own and all that, except that religion has such a negative effect on the world.

Leave me alone and I will leave them alone.

[b][i]"Why's everybody always pickin' on me"[/i][/b]

[img] [/img]

Ernie - I have been told on here that all morality comes from god and as a non believer I cannot have any morals.

But not in this thread,
nevertheless you have been offensive and taken the piss even though no one has pushed their views onto you, despite what you say

I said I will never be offensive and take the piss until they are offensive to me by pushing their views onto me

Charlie - you have done it several times.

"2) What evidence for your god(s) existence exists"

Love and happiness

so love and happiness can only come from God - how patronising.

CharlieMungus - Member

"Not only do I not believe, i positively reject your gods and I enjoy wonderful love and happiness"

But they give it to you anyway, that's just how nice they are. That's more evidence for you.

More patronising

Some religious people spreading love and happiness, earlier...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8570506/Police-covered-up-violent-campaign-to-turn-London-area-Islamic.html

so love and happiness can only come from God - how patronising.

Nope, didn't say that. So..not patronising.

But they give it to you anyway, that's just how nice they are. That's more evidence for you.

More patronising

How so?

Charlie - you have done it several times.

done what? Pushed my views on to you? You asked me a question!

with every passing post, tj gets nearer in his quest to prove the non existence of hell

[img] [/img]

So TJ, just to be clear, if someone loathed and despised you for no other reason than that you were an atheist, you would have no problem with that? Alternatively, if we look at your post-backpedalling position, if you told someone that you did not believe there was a god, and they thereafter ridiculed you for that belief, that would be ok with you?
If so, good for you. If not, you are indeed a hypocrite.
How does your hatred (and lets not pretend loathing and despising is different to hatred) of religious people differ from the catholic that hates protestants, or the muslim that hates jews? It is the hatred of those with different beliefs, which you have admitted that you hold, that causes all the problems you blame on religion, not the religions themselves.
You need to take a good look in the mirror my friend. I hope you do. All the best.

EDIT And I'm well aware of all the wars that have been started in the name of religion, and not aware of any that have been started in the name of atheism, so don't try and shove that red herring into the argument. It is the hatred and intolerance of others that causes the problems, not the specific beliefs of the haters.

No kenny - you are missing (deliberatly?) the point. You are consistently distorting my words - and yes I have met many people who think of the non believer as a lessor being. I hate religion for the harm it does. I do not hate the individual.
As I said my words that you picked up on were far from clear. I did attempt to clarify. However its clearly useless to discuss religion on here and I am sorry I forgot that and got involved.

I'm not distorting your words TJ, I'm reading them, on page 4 of this thread - "I loathe and despise religion [b]and the religious[/b]".

If you are retracting what seems to me a very clear statement, then I revise my opinion of you (favourably), and accept that you did not convey yourself as you intended. There are no hard feelings from me, be assured of that.

However its clearly useless to discuss religion on here and I am sorry I forgot that and got involved

Everyone else seems to manage OK.

Kenny - yes I was not clear and attempted to clarify further down on page 5.

The individual I do not loathe and despise of necessity. The religions I do because of the harm they cause. However without followers the religions have no power to do the harm so all adherents are culpable but the extent of their culpability varies.

so all adherents are culpable but the extent of their culpability varies.

Just like all citizens are responsible for the actions of their government?
All care professionals are responsible for the abuses in the news last week?
I don't know, but I suspect that you would find an awful lot of people, of various religions, who utterly despise some of the things done by others in the name of that religion as much as you do.

The religions I do because of the harm they cause.

Surely it's the people that do the harm, not the religion.

Some people seem fixated on getting a sound bite out of people and when they have one that suits their belief or their side of the argument (or just gives them a cause), they will hammer the that point to death.

It's like listening to John Humphrys interviewing with on Radio 4 trying desperately to get a headline for the next hours news.

so all adherents are culpable but the extent of their culpability varies.

So what are you trying to say now.......that how much you loathe and despise also varies ?

How charitable of you.

Some people seem fixated on getting a sound bite out of people and when they have one that suits there belief (or just gives them a cause), they will hammer the point to death.

The issue here is TJ. TJ is constantly alleging that he has been misquoted/quoted out of context/had his words distorted, so people can be forgiven for insisting that TJ explains exactly what he means.

As far as I can figure out what TJ exactly means tends to be highly variable.......its dependant on whether it makes him look bad or not.