[Closed] Overtaking.

Anyone can push in... what's your point?

Well, you seemed to have reduced your argument to a toddler's tantrum level of [b][i]IT'S NOT FAIR!!!!!!![/i][/b] a while back. That seemed a little contrary to your final recognition that people in faster cars may well be able to overtake where you can't, thereby taking 'your' place, and that being all hunky-dory.

That's all.

not "pushing in" at all.

Faster cars require less road length to complete the whole operation in a safe manner.

That's not what I meant at all. There are more opportunities to overtake single vehicles, but that still doesn't excuse queue jumping, in case you hadn't quite registered that as my main argument.

And calling me a tantrum throwing toddler because I care about fairness and being nice to people is absolutely ridiculous.

molgrips - would it be acceptable to 'queue jump' a car, if that car was not powerful enough to overtake?

What, ever?

Or just not at that exact moment?

Why has that car's face been blurred out? Is it ashamed of being seen with Molgrips?

Cougar - Moderator

If you're trying to overtake someone who's decided to try and race you mid-overtake, how is letting him get away and dropping back a bad idea? Locking your brain into a single course of action is dangerous, you need to adapt.

No idea at all where "locking your brain into a single course of action" came from tbh 😕 All I've talked about is choices and how higher performance vehicles give you more and better choices. This is fundamentally and I think undeniably safer.

Think that might be down to individual instructors then

Or maybe where you learn to drive and take your test. Every single meter of my test was in 30 limit and whilst I did have some NSL between where I lived and the test centre I still remember my instructor telling me to slow down because he was worried about the sign attached to the roof (I'd only hit 50 IIRC). I'm sure there are some people who never leave a 30 limit before passing their test.

And calling me a tantrum throwing toddler because I care about fairness and being nice to people is absolutely ridiculous.

Well, with the exception of you on this thread, the only person I've hear yell [b][i]IT'S NOT FAIR!!!!!!![/i][/b] recently is our friends' four year old.

You just seem a bit upset that people are more alert / better drivers / have faster cars than you. Which pretty much boils down to the same reaction as the 4yo comes out with when he's told he can't have his own way too.

What, ever?

Or just not at that exact moment?

If I'm the 3rd vehicle behind a lorry, followed by a milk float (for example), and there's a good straight bit, but the milk float doesn't want to/can't overtake, but I'm confident I can do both safely and without problems to either other vehicle, is it alright to pass both vehicles in one go?

That's how I read the comment, and I agree with the question.

Really don't understand this "queue jumping" idea. It's not a queue to overtake- sometimes people overtake, sometimes they don't- as ably demonstrated by this thread. If you're behind 2 slow-moving cars and the one behind is unable to pass or doesn't desire to, does that mean you should just sit behind it? Overtaking more than one car [i]safely[/i] is absolutely fine, and different drivers make different choices about when they will or will not pass.

(silly simile- if you get to the front of a queue in a shop and the person in front doesn't actually want to buy anything and just stands there staring into space, would you stand behind them til the shop closed?)

You just seem a bit upset that people are more alert / better drivers / have faster cars than you

Except that's not at all what I'm saying is it?

I'm saying that people force me to wait behind whilst they go through, when I could have gone. They are taking my chances by force.

It isn't fair, and it isn't nice. And I don't know why the **** you are bringing your friend's kid into it, that's just ridiculous.

If I'm the 3rd vehicle behind a lorry, followed by a milk float (for example), and there's a good straight bit, but the milk float doesn't want to/can't overtake, but I'm confident I can do both safely and without problems to either other vehicle, is it alright to pass both vehicles in one go?

Of course, since it's obvious it's not going to pass. For the 100th time that's not my issue though.

. If you're behind 2 slow-moving cars and the one behind is unable to pass or doesn't desire to, does that mean you should just sit behind it?

The issue is when I DO want to pass, but am prevented from doing so by someone else's actions. I've explained the scenario about six times on this thread already I'm not doing it again.

I'm not talking about two slow cars and a fast one. I'm talking about one slow car and ten cars in a line behind it. Then the eleventh car starts passing all the other cars as soon as he arrives, with no idea if any of the other cars are also waiting to 'make progress'.

molgrips - Member

The issue is when I DO want to pass, but am prevented from doing so by someone else's actions.

How, exactly, does that happen? If you can't overtake because someone else is already overtaking you, obviously you have already passed up on the opportunity to overtake that they're using.

I'm confused how someone behind you can "prevent" you from passing?

If your are using the correct observational, positional and temporal driving techniques, by the time the person behind will be where you were, you shouldn't be there!

Now of course, the person behind you may well have a significantly faster car, or more likely, is will to accept a higher risk, so they may choose to attempt an overtake where you don't. Now you don't know anything about their skillset or utilisation of it, so at that point you need to accept what is happening and if neccessary position your car/adjust your speed to ensure they can safely complete their maneouver. If you find this situation occurs a lot, it is in your best interest to get some advanced driver training, as chances are you are almost certainly missing a critical skillset somewhere. It also takes a more mature mental state to "help" others overtake, especially when you personnally would not have considered that particular maneouver to be appropriate.

Generally also most issues stem from a lack of observation. For example, you are in rolling 40mpg "queue" of 5 cars, with a lorry at the front. You observe in your mirrors a sports car catching the group fast. In this case, not expecting them to attempt a multicar overtake would be nieve. At this point, a really good driver might even start to open up a bigger gap to the car ahead (which should already be enough for someone to get into, not 1 car length as most "sheep" now allow) to give [b]YOURSELF[/b] a buffer if that driver attempts an overtake and misjudges it. Occupying the moral high ground from your bed in A&E is less satisfying that you might think......... '-)

It's been covered in the thread, but here's a recap of the main issue:

Let's say I'm 2nd in the queue. 1st place is looking to overtake but can't yet, because he's driving a normal car and the straights are too small.

Speedy man comes from behind in his fast car, passes me in a small space and waits behind 1st. The next gap comes, there's space for only two cars, they both go. I'm left behind, when I should have been through. That's the last overtaking spot for 5 miles.

1st place is looking to overtake but can't yet, because he's driving a [s]normal car[/s] milk float and the straights are too small.

🙂

To be fair Molgrips, before overtaking anything you'd probably have to submit a post on STW asking what everyone else thought you should do, as making decisions doesn't appear to be one of your strong points does it?

I'm talking about one slow car and ten cars in a line behind it. Then the eleventh car starts passing all the other cars as soon as he arrives, with no idea if any of the other cars are also waiting to 'make progress'.

Which is exactly what all of us on this thread are talking about when we mention overtaking in stages 🙄

Molegrips, your argument is totally flawed.

If rules or politeness dictated that everyone (by everyone I mean everyone in the queue who is harbouring intensions to overtake at some point) must overtake in their turn then how is that fair on the hesitant driver who is feeling pressured by the weight of others behind waiting for him to complete his overtake.

No doubt in this situation the less confident driver in a less powerful car would feel obliged overtake at the earliest opportunity (so as not to hold up those behind itching to get past) and may feel pressured into overtaking in a situation when really it's not safe to do so, putting lives at risk.

To compare with biking do you remember when you were learning to MTB and had a much faster rider behind you waiting to get past on a section of rocky downhill. Not a nice feeling is it? Often less confident riders get into accidents because they feel morally pushed to go faster than they are able due to this sort of situation.

Far better to let each driver assess the situation and overtake when they believe it is safe for them to go whether 1st in the queue or 10th in the queue, don't you agree.

Your other argument that you were starting to pull out when someone came at you from behind is also flawed. The highway code (not that you believe it is relevant) states that you always need to check behind before starting your overtake. So if you pulled out into someone coming at you from behind then it would be your fault if it ended up in a big mess.

Molgrips. Did you have a look at the IAM link I posted yesterday on this thread?

Given the number of people saying the same thing to you, do you not think that at least one of them may have a point?

There's no shame in getting more training. I acknowledged my driving skills weren't as good as I would like, so I did something about it.

maxtorque - Member

I'm confused how someone behind you can "prevent" you from passing?

it can/does happen...

eg: on a dual-carriageway*, looking to overtake, look in wing mirror, see a fast-chap coming up on the outside lane, don't want to give him a heart attack so don't signal - as i won't be pulling out in front of him - he goes past, I start indicating, there's another fast-chap behind him, i let him past, there's a gap, and the guy behind me pulls out and accelerates before you can say 'split-second'

the guy behind me knew i wanted to overtake (i was indicating), but took 'my'** opportunity...

(*it doesn't even have to be a DC, i (try to) always check my mirror before any overtaking move)

(**but i won't lose any sleep over it)

molgrips - Member

It's been covered in the thread, but here's a recap of the main issue:

Let's say I'm 2nd in the queue. 1st place is looking to overtake but can't yet, because he's driving a normal car and the straights are too small.

Speedy man comes from behind in his fast car, passes me in a small space and waits behind 1st. The next gap comes, there's space for only two cars, they both go. I'm left behind, when I should have been through. That's the last overtaking spot for 5 miles.

You're totally right molegrips - the driver in the fast car really should have been a mind reader and predicted that you have the moral right to be ahead.

Sometimes an overtake is stages is the only way if you're going to pass a big queue of traffic to a clear road ahead. Many people will dawdle and not get on with overtaking so if you sat at the back and waited your turn then you'd never pass. A staged overtake allows you to overtake safely and quickly. I do this when necessary and if it makes your piss boil then I really couldn't give two hoots I'm afraid.

Very unlikely situation in reality though isn't it? Only once ever happened to me in almost 350,000 miles of driving. Not really worth getting your knickers in a twist about. I guess the only solution like we have said before is perhaps to either chill out and accept it as a normal part of driving, or buy a faster car.

the guy behind me knew i wanted to overtake, but took 'my'* opportunity

Very strange! What makes it 'YOUR' opportunity? Do you own the road perhaps?

I haven't read all of this, but you lot are just ignoring or misunderstanding molgrips' point and then presenting your OWN misunderstanding of it as his problem!

Bossing your way down a moving queue of traffic without consideration for where you are going to re-enter the queue nor consideration of the other drivers in that queue is crap, selfish and dangerous driving. If you can see where you are going to get back in, and you can see that it is safe to get there then fine, but don't go bowling down the wrong side of the road if there is a pretty good chance that one of the cars ahead of you is going to block your safe route.

To be honest, unless we are comparing a Micra with a Veyron, having a "fast" car makes much less difference than A) you would think and more importantly B) the drivers skill set.

Even cooking family cars are quite fast enough to overtake in pretty much any sensibly safe situation. (and i'm not talking about some mad kamakazi style runup that we all did as kids in our first crappy car!)

Look at some numbers:
Cooking car:0-60 8sec
Sports car: 0-60 5sec

The sports car looks a lot "faster", yet when the sports car reaches 60, the cooking car will still be doing about 50!

Traffic isn't a "queue" in that way, it doesn't flow as a singleminded unit, every individual has their own desires and capabilities. There are people in the line who are happy where they are, and people who aren't, and people who aren't that bothered but will make progress when they can.

Other drivers have no way to know whether you're unwilling or incapable of passing, so expecting them to wait for you to go, which may never happen, is not reasonable.

In your example- the car behind waits to see what you do. Now, what if you don't go either, because you're happy with the pace? Absolutely fine, but now both you and he are still behind the car, whereas if he'd gone "selfishly", at least one driver is making progress. Now add in some more- driver 3 who was behind 3 cars is still behind 3 cars not 2. And then, remember that you're not always going to be driver 2.

The smoothest progress is made by the most drivers when people take safe opportunities as and when they can and wish to. Look at it in terms of traffic flow rather than the individual outcome. What you consider as selfishness or unfairness is actually giving the better outcome for the most members of the group.

Very strange! What makes it 'YOUR' opportunity? Do you own the road perhaps?

No, I'm first in the queue, which is my point.

Very unlikely situation in reality though isn't it?

No, it happens every time there's a long queue on a particularly windy road in certain parts of the country. Very common, otherwise I wouldn't be going on about it.

Now, what if you don't go either, because you're happy with the pace?

Then he knows that next time he can overtake me or both of us with a clear conscience. The time spent waiting behind is not important. It's morally egregious, that's my problem with it. Just like queue jumping in a supermarket.

Look at it in terms of traffic flow rather than the individual outcome. What you consider as selfishness or unfairness is actually giving the better outcome for the most members of the group.

Not sure I agree with that. It would be like asking to go infront of someone with a whole trolley full when you only have a pint of milk. Not bad, but if everyone with a pint of milk does it, the trolley load could be waiting forever. Overall, lots of people would have gone through the checkout, so overall flow would be high. But it's not fair on the poor sod at the back is it?

I've not read any of the subsequent posting since yesterday, but...

[i]but you lot are just ignoring or misunderstanding molgrips' point and then presenting your OWN misunderstanding of it as his problem![/i]

I'm not surprized. Could some folk even be angling for a flounce ?
😉

But anyway, I've met people who tell me that they will not overtake. If they encounter a lorry, they will sit behind it until one or other turns off the route. These people typically sit very close to the rear of the long vehicle. They are now increasing the distance people who do wish to over take, have to travel.

As before, the roads are crazy, filled by drivers of widely varying capability, driving cars of differing performance. I've seen it all, nothing surprizes me, not even this 16 page thread on overtaking.
😉

[b]Carry on[/b]
😀

No, I'm first in the "queue"

FTFY

Molgrips, how does anyone know your intentions?
How long are they supposed to wait for you to start overtaking?
Could it be that you are hesitant and take too long (to ensure your manouvre is safe?) so they get fed up waiting as they have a window of oppertunity fast disappearing.

Whilst its a PITA being queue jumped, it happens and its not dangerous unless your oberservations are lacking.

My biggest gripe is when people who are quite happily dwadling at 40mph in a NSL suddenly decide that they now want to do 60mph the very moment I decide to overtake them, instantly turning a safe legal overtake into a choice between putting the anchors on and pulling back in behind or going faster and having to pull back in much later than you originally anticpated. Neither option being particularly good.

you lot are just ignoring or misunderstanding molgrips' point and then presenting your OWN misunderstanding of it as his problem!

Nope - I understand it perfectly, I just think he's wrong. He doesn't appear to understand my (our) point though.

molgrips - Member

No, I'm first in the queue, which is my point.

[img] [/img]

molgrips - Member

Then he knows that next time he can overtake me or both of us with a clear conscience.

But in your example, "That's the last overtaking spot for 5 miles." and apparently that's a big deal when it's you that's held up. You consider it a problem when you're inconvenienced to that degree but you're perfectly happy for it to happen to other people.

It's not at all like a queue in a supermarket. The person in front of you in the queue at a supermarket definitely wants to get to the front.

[i]My biggest gripe is when people who are quite happily dwadling at 40mph in a NSL suddenly decide that they now want to do 60mph the very moment I decide to overtake them[/i]

Ooo !, yeah ! I really, really, want to know the [i]real[/i] answer to that one. I've never managed to get to ask any of the fools who play that particular game of driving idiot.

"That's the last overtaking spot for 5 miles.". You consider it a problem when you're inconvenienced to that degree but you're perfectly happy for it to happen to other people.

You're missing the point.

If I lose a teabag, I'm not that bothered. If someone I don't know takes a teabag from my desk without asking, that's not right.

maxtorque - Member

To be honest, unless we are comparing a Micra with a Veyron, having a "fast" car makes much less difference than A) you would think and more importantly B) the drivers skill set.

Even cooking family cars are quite fast enough to overtake in pretty much any sensibly safe situation. (and i'm not talking about some mad kamakazi style runup that we all did as kids in our first crappy car!)

Look at some numbers:
Cooking car:0-60 8sec
Sports car: 0-60 5sec

The sports car looks a lot "faster", yet when the sports car reaches 60, the cooking car will still be doing about 50!

0-60 times only tell half of the story and isn't really that relevant to everyday driving. The 30-70 acceleration of a car is much more relevant to everyday driving. Here there really can be a huge difference between a normal 'cooking' car and a truly fast car.

I'm sure we've all been in a badly judged overtake at some point? I've had a couple in my driving past when I was less experienced. Having a faster car is the difference between being able to squeeze on a bit more power knowing that you will safely get through to the other side, or having to brake and return to the queue behind the slow moving vehicle (not a nice situation).

Not condoning marginal overtaking in any way, but no-ones perfect and sometimes we all get things wrong so in the odd situation when the unexpected happens having a powerful car will give you many more options to escape the situation safely.

Molgrips, how does anyone know your intentions?

That's kind of my point.

How long are they supposed to wait for you to start overtaking?

Longer than they typically do, which is not at all.

molgrips - Member

You're missing the point.

If I lose a teabag, I'm not that bothered. If someone I don't know takes a teabag from my desk without asking, that's not right.

Maybe you should have a large, scrolling, rear-facing matrix sign on your roof:

[b]"Sensitive Driver. Overtaking Deliberation in progress. Please do not pass. It's Rude!" [/b]

If I lose a teabag, I'm not that bothered. If someone I don't know takes a teabag from my desk without asking, that's not right.

How do you feel about somebody using the last teabag in the communal pot which was "yours"?

molgrips - Member

If I lose a teabag, I'm not that bothered. If someone I don't know takes a teabag from my desk without asking, that's not right.

It's even less like losing a teabag than it is like a queue in a supermarket.

Better analogy- 10 people are waiting to get through a door. The 2 people in front are jammed- "after you!" "No after you!" "I insist, after you!" The other 8 really couldn't give a crap who goes through first, because by delaying each other they delay everyone. An impression of what's fair or polite applied to the individuals gives an undesired outcome for the group.

It is basically game theory. Actions which seem individually selfish or counterproductive make sense when you consider the outcome for the group. And failing to consider the outcome for the group is inherently selfish.

aracer - Member

How do you feel about somebody using the last teabag in the communal pot which was "yours"?

Very good!

molgrips - Member

Very strange! What makes it 'YOUR' opportunity? Do you own the road perhaps?

No, I'm first in the queue, which is my point.

Ah so you don't own the road, just the right to always be first on it if you want then?

What does 'teabagging' have to do with overtaking anyway? I'd have thought that combining the two could be deadly?

Anybody slower than me is a dangerous ditherer.
Anybody faster than me is a hooligan.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why people drive slowly until you go to overtake. Then floor it. Whats that all about then ?