Well, that’s the problem, people often dont want to, and the alternatives to the right and centre need to take responsibility for that failing and address it.
Not really. People need to realise that voting for centrists is just fueling the rise of the far right and stop doing it. Currently the centrist's only pitch is, 'If you don't vote for us the fascists will win.'
We saw it in the UK election. We saw it in the US election. And now we're seeing it in France.
What needs to happen is clear. The wealth pump needs to be reversed and wealth and income inequality has to be reduced. Vote for any party that says it's going to do this.
Even if their plan is batshit crazy and unworkable, if enough people vote for it the centrists will realise that people are voting for redistribution and will follow the votes.
Not really. People need to realise that voting for centrists is just fueling the rise of the far right and stop doing it. Currently the centrist’s only pitch is, ‘If you don’t vote for us the fascists will win.’
Sorry, are you saying those offering alternatives to the centre and right have no responsibility for getting their case across in a way that affects changing attitudes?
We established above that it is still fine to vote fascist without blame – even if you’re not on the breadline yourself.
So, as (apparently) I’ve nothing to lose, I’m just going to take the lazy option. It’ll free up my mind to basically ignore nuance in politics. Much more simple to blame someone else and punch down.
Reform it is for me.
This drivel suggests that you don't need any help freeing up your mind.
Sorry, are you saying those offering alternatives to the centre and right have no responsibility for getting their case across in a way that affects changing attitudes?
The problem is that if you don't present policies that result in the obscenely wealthy getting even wealthier then the mainstream news outlets (that just happen to be owned by billionaires) will ridicule you. Bot farms will flood social media with 'people' who will ridicule you.
How exactly do you suggest alternatives are presented in such a way that the message is delivered without interference of legacy and new media?
I think this is one of those times it's up to people to decide they've had enough and start voting for the people who literally every outlet is telling them not to vote for.
Bit judgemental, that.
Dazh – rebuke ransos immediately for calling someone who is going to vote Reform thick. It simply won’t do.
I thought you said you were done with your wee temper tantrum and were going to go and play somewhere else.
Since you're here, do you actually have any arguments against those we've put forward? Specifically, that voting for centrists is going to result in even more people voting for neo-fascists in the long term as public money and taxes are siphoned off into the pockets of the oligarchs and billionaires?
That's what the rest of us are trying to talk about while you dance around saying, 'I'm voting Reform now, hahahaha!'
How exactly do you suggest alternatives are presented in such a way that the message is delivered without interference of legacy and new media?
This is the bit I'm seeing as needing taking responsibility for dealing with. You can't rely on people to just "get it", if ownership of dealing with the stacked deck isnt taken. You're not going to shift anyone to something most do not know exists, or believe is credible.
I thought you said you were done with your wee temper tantrum and were going to go and play somewhere else.
If people stop taking the opportunity to bite back then I'll let it drop. But there's a coterie of posters on here who simply cannot help themselves in needing to have the last word.
Your move.
Dazh – rebuke ransos immediately for calling someone who is going to vote Reform thick.
Honestly please stop with the temper tantrum. This started because you suggested that people who vote for fascists because they are pissed off with the status quo should instead thank their lucky stars they live in such a wonderful country where they live amazingly priveleged lives. Well guess what, millions of people are not that lucky and live a life of unrelenting struggle, misery and stress, and there are many more who can see that their lives are getting much harder and no one is interested in helping them. They couldn't give a flying f*** about offending your liberal sensibilities by voting for someone like Trump, Farage or Le Pen because they know the current economic and political system doesn't serve them and they just want something/anything to change.
I said I'd stop if you lot would.
I still will.
Can you?
I said I’d stop if you lot would
No you didn't. You said:
I’ll tootle off now.
If people stop taking the opportunity to bite back then I’ll let it drop.
13 minutes ago
Honestly please stop with the temper tantrum.
9 minutes ago
I still will stop. I'm no longer even trying to make a point. It has been done.
OK?
I said I’d stop if you lot would.
Carry on as much as you like. You can either respond to the points made or throw your dummy out the pram because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make a lot of difference to me. You might want to consider though that one of the main reasons Trump won in the US and the likes of Le Pen and others are doing so well in Europe is because people are generally sick of being lectured by comfortably off middle class liberals who tell them what they should think and do.
Carry on as much as you like. You can either respond to the points made or throw your dummy out the pram because someone disagrees with you, it doesn’t make a lot of difference to me.
Or me.
Well, my point is made. Apparently voters cannot be blamed for turning to parties like Reform. Your words not mine.
But, apparently I can be blamed for saying I will henceforth be voting Reform. Hence the mini pile-on.
And you have the gall to say I am the one doing the lecturing. How amusing.
Well, my point is made
Well yes, but not in the way you intended.
Well yes, but not in the way you intended.
How very witty.
Must remember that retort.
How very witty.
Must remember that retort.
I see you've still not tootled off. What other things have you said here that aren't true, I wonder?
But, apparently I can be blamed for saying I will henceforth be voting Reform.
I couldn't care less if you vote for Reform. But doing so out of spite because someone disagreed with you on an internet forum comes across as a bit of a childish and stupid thing to do. I mean I know you won't actually be voting for Reform, which makes your little performative protest all the more ridiculous.
Here's an idea, how about you address the point about whether centrist politicians and parties in the west should be implementing policies which redistribute wealth and tax the rich more to provide better public services? Do you not think this is not only a good thing to do but also a fundamental prerequisite to preventing fascist parties from winning power?
I see you’ve still not tootled off. What other things have you said here that aren’t true, I wonder?
You just cannot let anything go without a sly aside, can you?
That's a power and control thing, BTW.
To sum up
"the left" had the biggest share of the vote in the election.
Macron ignored that and installed a right wing prime minister
They then pushed through a right wing budget against the wishes of parliament
The results of that were always going to be a no confidence vote, Macron and Barnier knew that, but decided they would prefer a Le Pen government than co-operating with "the left".
The centrists are unwilling to take responsibility for their actions and are trying to blame "the left" for not begging to be stabbed in the back again.
You just cannot let anything go without a sly aside, can you?
Well, let's see:
1. Claimed you were leaving yet keep coming back.
2. Claimed that your position of massive privilege is "average".
3. Claimed that you're voting for Reform.
Statements one and two are demonstrably false so I'm wondering if I can trust other things you say.
That’s a power and control thing, BTW.
A pathological one, it would seem.
A gallic shrug is in order here - with a nod the thread title.
A pathological one, it would seem.
A gallic shrug is in order here – with a nod the thread title.
I suppose that's easier than addressing your falsehoods.
Definitely pathological.
Definitely pathological.
QED.
[Deleted]
Actually no. C'est tout.
To sum up
I'd add to that summary with, according to Le Monde...
and the far right held the key to the government's survival
Well, putting aside my opinion of decadent 'western' electorates flirting with fascism at the slightest sign of needing to give up a part of the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed...
It seems to me that Macron has done a 'Cameron 2015' in a France 2024 way. He felt he had to roll the dice to forestall something, his chutzpah has ended with him having to give an inch to the far right and his arrogance has led him to believe it would be 'enough'. As if Barnier was ever going to be enough for Le Pen!
In doing so, he has spurned the 'far-ish' left. Now Le Pen will pull the pin like she was always going to. The left won't bail out Macron because he's just shat on them, and a stitch up between them and Macron will probably finish them in thr eyes of many of their voters.
It's a colossal ****ing mess. A supposed cool operator hasn't done enough for enough people, believing his being 'right' is largely good enough on its own. So France may well have its little experiment with right-wing extremism, the ramifications could be big and unpredictable.
Thinking of France as a socialist-leaning country is outdated. It harks back to the 60s/70s and reflects the notion that the supposed sharing of wealth was more palatable at that time to the majority because they perceived that sharing to be with people that looked like them. Things have changed since then and poisonous elements have exploited those changes.
It seems to me that Macron has done a ‘Cameron 2015’ in a France 2024 way.
I was going to make the same comparison. Probably also going to take at least 10 years to begin to clean up the fallout as well.
The problem “the left” have is they include LFI, who don’t want a working government unless they lead it, they’re hoping to benefit from the chaos in future elections… where as RN are probably going be the main beneficiaries in the short term.
Well it seems like moderation is going out of fashion in lots of places. To my mind, that can only be a bad thing. Maybe 'the left' will benefit long-term, but given the nasty underbelly to post-peak-stuff lifestyle politics in many developed nations, I think the allure of division and punching down is simply easier to give in to. But we're drifting back to my opinion of well-off electorates voting for fascists again...
‘western’ electorates flirting with fascism at the slightest sign of needing to give up a part of the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed…
Is that what you genuinely believe is driving voters away from mainstream political parties...... nothing more than the "slightest" sign ?
You don't think that the neoliberal experiment in Europe and the United States is actually in a crisis? All that is needed are "slight" adjustments?
Attitudes like that must be music to the ears of the far-right.
And btw it is centrists parties who have been "flirting with fascism". Which is precisely why electorates have been looking rightward rather than leftward. When centrist parties and government are validating far-right lies about immigration which direction do you expect voters to go?
It is a phenomenon which has been repeatedly seen throughout Europe. When mainstream political parties adopt the language of the far-right in a desperate attempt to stem the hemorrhaging of votes to them it is ALWAYS the far-right who benefits the most.
Is that what you genuinely believe is driving voters away from mainstream political parties…… nothing more than the “slightest” sign ?
Yes. In a global context, it is.
It is the same reason why, ultimately, mankind will dig up and burn every last molecule of fossil fuel in the end. It is simply too much effort not to.
But we’re drifting back to my opinion of well-off electorates voting for fascists again…
I paid a visit to the office in Manchester this week and witnessed first hand the well-off electorate sleeping in doorways and tents pitched in the middle of the street. They looked extremely grateful that they were so lucky to live in a rich country with a sensible moderate government. :-/
And it is interesting that you picked up on that particular part of my post - given that you issued a mild bollocking for thread derailment on that exact theme.
If you want to police threads, then you can't do the exact thing you profess to want to stop.
I paid a visit to the office in Manchester this week and witnessed first hand the well-off electorate sleeping in doorways and tents pitched in the middle of the street. They looked extremely grateful that they were so lucky to live in a rich country with a sensible moderate government. :-/
If only they cut down on their takeaways and cancelled their sky subscription...
Yes. In a global context, it is.
Well I am surprised that you cannot see the obvious and serious crises which neoliberalism is currently experiencing and that you believe voters globally are simply overreacting to "the slightest sign".
I probably need to re-evaluate my expectations. I seem to have misunderstood your starting point.
Well it seems like moderation is going out of fashion in lots of places. To my mind, that can only be a bad thing.
What do you actually mean by 'moderation'? I see nothing moderate about a system which allows individuals to accumulate billions while many more have to sleep on the streets. There's nothing moderate about corporations extracting billions in profit from the economy without having to pay any of it back while health services, schools and local amenities crumble and decay. There's nothing moderate about funding wars and supplying weapons to countries who are slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people. If that and all the other horrific stuff that happens as a result of our political and economic system is what you call moderate you can keep it quite frankly.
The phrase "be careful what you wish for" will suffice here, I think.
And if my reading of the situation in France is correct, the least likely outcome is a numerically stable centrist government.
So you won't have long to wait.
I paid a visit to the office in Manchester this week and witnessed first hand the well-off electorate sleeping in doorways and tents pitched in the middle of the street. They looked extremely grateful that they were so lucky to live in a rich country with a sensible moderate government. :-/
What percentage of the electorate do you think they constitute?
What percentage of the electorate do you think they constitute?
Whatever it is, it's too big. Being dismissive of it isnt helping anyone.
We do have a fairly accessible number for the total number of people experiencing homelessness is Manchester. (No idea how many are voters)
Manchester has some of the highest levels of homelessness in the UK – according to statistics published by Shelter in January 2023, Manchester ranks third-highest in the country for people experiencing homelessness per capita, with around 7,407 people (one in 74 people) experiencing homelessness.
I'm ok with anyone categorizing that number as pretty f****ed up.
https://mhp.org.uk/homelessness-in-manchester/
It is ****ed up. It's horrendous. On an individual level and in overall number.
But do we honestly think that the 14.3%(?) of the population that vored Reform had a 'justified' reason for doing so?
Are there 9.7 MILLION homeless people in the UK, of whom it can justifiably be said "they had no alternative or no better alternative" when they voted Reform?
Are there ****.
We all know the answer. Some dare speak the real reasons. Others don't dare.
FFS people living rough on the streets don't even vote, that's not the issue! The issue is that they represent just one symptom of a ****ed up society with ****ed up priorities.
Is it really beyond your capability to understand that?
So voting for fascists is a justifiable protest against inequality in society?
You are going to have to explain this very methodically. Possibly in words of one syllable. If that makes me thick, then I guess I'm an idiot.
