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Just watching the news. The obamacare (US healthcare reform) does seem to be exercising the republicans. Coming from a country with the NHS I can't get my head around affordable healthcare for those without not being what any grown up, mature, 'wealthy' country should be aiming to aspire to having and getting right. His efforts are not turning him into the next Nye Bevan.....
What's the downside they seem to hate him for? Similarly why are the US poor(er) not hailing him a hero? Point me to an idiots guide.
What's the downside they seem to hate him for?
Look at the budget as a whole for the NHS in the UK, Then scale that up to a country the size of the US. Then imagine all thats being run privately with a profit margin on top and that treatment has been comodified as luxury and a lifestyle.
There are going to be some considerable vested interests and a lot of shit slinging.
I think that they think that state sponsored healthcare will come with lots of strings, and they would rather freedom from state intervention on principle.
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maccruiskeen - MemberLook at the budget as a whole for the NHS in the UK, Then scale that up to a country the size of the US
Except that US healthcare is far more expensive than UK healthcare. (even leaving aside private healthcare they spend more per head on state healthcare than we do, in order to provide a worse service, to about 1/3d of the population instead of 1/1)
Sure, there would be a profit-taking impact but according to the figures I've seen, healthcare providers would have to be taking very nearly 50% of the spend as profit before this became more expensive than the current system.
The US (conurbations like New York aside) is just not a very socially progressive country, and that is about all there is to it.
Its hard to see what they have against free healthcare for all citizens tbh.
Sure the NHS is shit , bureaucratic and makes mistakes but it is just like education in being a no brainer as to what any country wants - healthy and educated people.
It's because universal healthcare is tantamount to communism. And therefore Obama is Stalin. Or Hitler, for some reason i can't really work out. for wanting everyone to have access to affordable healthcare, he's clearly evil! Turkeys voting for Christmas doesn't even begin to cover it.
More worrying though.... We have a government that seems to regard the American system as something to aim for.
I'm working out here, and I think it boils down to healthcare insurance getting more expensive for many. Which, as far as I can tell, is because the most insurance companies are allowed to charge now is something like $12k per year for insurance, so they are, for everyone.
Apparently this is Obamas fault.
We are the only country in the world with an NHS. Its horrendously expensive and we can barely afford it. I agree - I can't understand why americans seem to reject the concept of some form of health service, but I can understand them having an issue on the basis of cost, especially when they're over a Trillion dollars in the red already. It must look like financial scuicide to many.
The middle-class Republican's don't want to pay more to fund it and the poorer population probably just don't trust the government in general
Sitting in the middle ground here in Oz, I'm impressed a basic coverage that will look after you but a comprehensive private top up available to let you take advantage of private and give you more choice of what you want to get done.
We are the only country in the world with an NHS.
Canada?
My favourite quote from the anti camp was 'Obamacare is a socialist policy. Hitler was a National Socialist. Do you want Nazi policies?'
My favourite quote from the anti camp was 'Obamacare is a socialist policy. Hitler was a National Socialist. Do you want Nazi policies?'
That is all sorts of special that quote.
wobbliscott
the US government already spends double as a % of GDP what we do on healthcare and still they have shorter life expectancies so by that measure our horrendously expensive NHS is quite cheap
In the long run this should save america $$$
Wasn't the Republican opposition to this that, as a country founded on people doing things for themselves to enrich themselves, having to rely on the state for healthcare is seen as undermining that capitalist spirit in a fundamental way?
We are the only country in the world with an NHS. Its horrendously expensive and we can barely afford it. I agree - I can't understand why americans seem to reject the concept of some form of health service, but I can understand them having an issue on the basis of cost, especially when they're over a Trillion dollars in the red already. It must look like financial scuicide to many.
The UK NHS is pretty cheap compared to most comparable countries, the per person costs of health care in the US is staggering in comparison, and only a very few of them get any better treatment than a standard British citizen.
Junkyard - lazarusSure the NHS is shit
But it's not. It's the envy of the morally conscious world. Although if you listen to the Tory press, it is shit. I wonder if there is a vested interest in turning the NHS in to private healthcare?
binners - Member
It's because universal healthcare is tantamount to communism. And therefore Obama is Stalin. Or Hitler, for some reason i can't really work out.
But then Hilter was more left wing than our current left wing politicians. Which is why he was classed as a National Socialist. He just wanted to exterminate anyone who didn't fit his "aryan race" ideology.
More worrying though.... We have a government that seems to regard the American system as something to aim for.
Because they can make a profit from it.
Working currently in the US and UK clinical sectors. Much of what is said above is correct. US Healthcare is more expensive per head of population than the NHS and has massive disadvantages for the poorer sectors of US population. I've seen this first hand with our lab being in a bankrupt charity hospital in west central Detroit (you'd never complain about the NHS again once you'd seen this). For those that can afford it the US has some of the best healthcare in the world.
However for a high proportion of the US Obamacare will make their expensive healthcare a bit more expensive. That it why the Republicans are so massively against it and any form of extra government taxes. It's not just healthcare that needs reform and funding - look at the state of much of the US's infrastructure eg. roads and bridges.
Most Americans also have a highly negative view of the NHS. Mainly due to our waiting lists. If you have private healthcare you see docs much more quickly and probably too frequently (escalating costs).
I believe that the French Healthcare system if probably the most complete state funded system in Europe not the NHS? Health Canada is a very good system but per head of population Canada is now doing much better economically than the US and can afford it. The best systems seem to be a mixture of a small amount of cost to the wealthier and state funding like the German system.
USA spends the most per capita $8,233. The UK is down at number 15 with $3,433. You might think that Canada should be comparable to the USA but they only spend $4,445.
Is the difference the number of Ferraris owned by doctors and dentists in the USA?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_(PPP)_per_capita ]Wiki[/url]
wobbliscott - MemberWe are the only country in the world with an NHS. Its horrendously expensive and we can barely afford it.
It isn't. Our healthcare spend isn't high at all, it's lower than France and Germany, half that of the USA. The irony is we maybe can't afford their model but we're moving to break down our own, cheaper system.
But it's not. It's the envy of the morally conscious world. Although if you listen to the Tory press, it is shit. I wonder if there is a vested interest in turning the NHS in to private healthcare?
The NHS is adequate if you're articulate, intelligent and pushy. If you don't really know what's going on and let them get on with it it is very shit indeed.
Its horrendously expensive and we can barely afford it. I agree
You say this about everything - benefits, NHS and it is always just utter BS - I am beginning to wonder which of the fallen right wing trolls you are tbh
You say utter nonsense everyone says its utter nonsense then you dont return - its like facts dont matter to you when yo have such contempt for helping folk.
Its cheaper than the American model and does universal coverage as well
But it's not
Its a poor choice of words for me when I really meant is easy to criticise it when it fails but yes it amongst the top three of British things of which I am proud and it should be universally applied everywhere - iirc the UN advise that there is universal healthcare.
i did nto really mena the NHS is shit - sorry.
Its cheaper than the American model and does universal coverage as well
I prefer the British model to the US model, but the reason for resistance is obvious.
If you have good care and the government wants to charge you more so other people can have care too you end up paying more. In a culture based on self-reliance this is a hard sell. It is morally wrong to many Americans.
Wasn't the Republican opposition to this that, as a country founded on people doing things for themselves to enrich themselves
Yes. The whole American ideal is based on people being expected to go out and do things for themselves. Anything that even sounds slightly like the state taking responsibility for ensuring that its citizens are looked after is considered socialism/communism. As such, many of the people who would benefit most (eg the poor) are very much against it on principle.
As I work for a US company, I've had this discussion quite a lot. Many of the people I speak to have massive misunderstandings about how the NHS works and don't realise just how good a service it does provide (even given all its many faults). For me, finding out how much people pay for healthcare in the US was pretty shocking, especially when you find out how much extra things like childbirth are.
Part of that it because healthcare is a commodity, there's a huge incentive to 'over provide' - eg childbirth requires a whole list of people because that covers every eventuality and allows the hospital to charge more rather than take a more considered view.
Anything that even sounds slightly like the state taking responsibility for ensuring that its citizens are looked after is considered socialism/communism
Not the military though that is proper socilaist/ state provision as how else could the envy of the free world[s] maintain its strategic interest in oil rich or geographically convenient countries [/s] protect demmocracy on foreign land
Well, don't point that out 😉
I think that's still a hangover from the war for independence...
#'Obamacare is a socialist policy. Hitler was a National Socialist. Do you want Nazi policies?'
I would have laughed at that, but a few years ago I was in the States and somebody said pretty much that. The NHS is a socialist organization that he wouldn't have anything to do with on principle.
That said, when his home-made bullets jammed his gun, he did look down the barrel to see if he could see the source of the problem, then banged the butt off the ground to see if he could shift it.
The NHS is adequate if you're articulate, intelligent and pushy. If you don't really know what's going on and let them get on with it it is very shit indeed.
that frankly, is as a big a load of balls as the average American's view of the NHS. Last week, I was ambulanced into hospital at 4AM with a suspected heart attack. The paramedics gave me an ECG in the hotel lobby which indicated no to the heart attack, but as a portable unit, wasn't accurate enough to say for sure. Still, very reassuring. The service was excellent, from simple reassurance to treatment. I was introduced to the nurse responsible for my care and she regularly looked and asked if I was ok, did I need anything, etc. cups of tea and glasses of water were provided. It wasn't a heart attack, I'm not here because of the sterling efforts of the health service staff, but if it had been, or if it happens for real, there is nothing I wold change about the way I was treated.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, it has it's faults, and when it fails, which it can, being articulate and educated helps, but most of the time, you'll get the service you need without being arsey about it.
Its hard to see what they have against free healthcare for all citizens tbh.
They don't want government to control healthcare, as a matter of principle*.
* this is a generous way of looking at it..
Junkyard - lazarusi did nto really mena the NHS is shit - sorry.
Apology accepted on behalf of the, quite frankly, marvellous, if somewhat underfunded, NHS. 😉
I worked on a charity summercamp for inner city kids near boston most of the kids were on welfare of some sort
their access to basic healthcare was truly shocking; ringworm, untreated ear infections that stank, more serious blood infections, the nurse at the camp had her work cut out for her and the kids were genuinely excited to be getting antibiotics?!
Massachusetts has a relatively good social healthcare programme but it was a massive eye opener for me at the time
quite often the other staff wouldnt believe me when i explained this stuff was free back at home
Ive also worked with children in the uk places including harringey so I know that things can get bad here too, but at the bottom theres a big difference
One part of the country is fighting to be able to shoot each other, the other part is fighting to be able to heal each other. It seems the shooters are winning, and yet they still tell us this is the world's greatest nation.
And just to point out that if you need to go to A&E (ER) in the US, you'll be charged for it - if you don't have insurance (as many Americans don't) then you'll get treated but you will then be liable for the cost (though there are charity mechanisms to help with this sometimes).
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081001061228AAnUABl
AS such, you'll find people don't go to A&E even for things that we wouldn't even consider that a possibility. Horrendous situation for such a rich country but the prevailing opinion is that it's the person's fault for not paying for health insurance.
In a brilliant piece of political maneuvering the Republicans somehow managed to sell the concept that free healthcare meant that hospitals etc would decide who to treat and who not to and that people would DIE.
This somewhat fell apart when they wheeled Stephen Hawking out at some rally and for whatever reason stated, live on stage in front of thousands, 'take this guy for example, if he were British he would be dead by now'...
Cheers
Danny B
That's great Danny - hadn't heard that 🙂
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/12/hawking_british_and_alive/
As has been pointed out elsewhere, it has it's faults, and when it fails, which it can, being articulate and educated helps, but most of the time, you'll get the service you need without being arsey about it.
I think actual emergency service is good. Beyond that you need to be able to take control. You don't need to be arsey. All IME obviously.
Kimbers - the USA is over a Trillion dollars in debt. They may spend more than us on health care (but also have 6 times the population) - but like us they can't afford it - and despite them spending more than us they still have people suffering from and even dying of treatable conditions because they can't afford the drugs they need.
Canada might have an NHS system like ours - but their national debt has also soared in recent years. And the system they have on the contintent is not quite the same as the NHS - it is different - oh, and by the way, most of those countries are in shit loads of national debt. We may like to ignore the debt situation we're in, but its a reality the politicians have to deal with.
Not saying we should ditch the NHS or the americans shouldn't have, or deserve, Obamacare, but we have to find a better and sustainable way to finance these things, whilst still delivering the services to the public.
So, you think that adapting a healthcare model that'd cut spending by 66% while improving service would be "financial suicide" so tell me, what do you think they should do? Their current system's fantasticlly expensive, the far cheaper national alternative is apparently also too expensive...
but we have to find a better and sustainable way to finance these things
It's called taxation.
They may spend more than us on health care (but also have 6 times the population) - but like us they can't afford it
Oh FFS, how many times do people like you have to be told that the figures quoted are PER CAPITA, so it's irrelevant what their population is. Look it up. You might learn something. And define 'can't afford it'. Anything is affordable with political will and public support. They put a man on the moon for god's sake.
oh no wobbliscott my mortgage is a huuuuge debt, how can I end this madness, should we abandon the entire system???
no, its just debt ill pay it off in the end, or ill die either way its fine
Beyond that you need to be able to take control. You don't need to be arsey. All IME obviously.
My grandfather had Alzheimer's, which limited his ability to be articulate, demonstrate his education to it's fullest extent or "take control". He had years of treatment by the most dedicated teams of professionals even when he was being arsey and we, his family, found dealing with him difficult. Because that's what happens with Alzheimer's patients and bear in mind that mental health care is right at the back of the political priority list for NHS spending.
My grandmother lost her sight and spent the last few months of her life in a hospice. Again, the care she received was wonderful, making me proud of the NHS as an organisation.
Neither of these are part of the emergency services
Not saying we should ditch the NHS or the americans shouldn't have, or deserve, Obamacare, but we have to find a better and sustainable way to finance these things, whilst still delivering the services to the public.
For me the first thing I'd do is have a good hard look around at other things not to spend money on first. Like trident replacement in the UK or the $3-4 trillion or so the US annually spend on defence. I'd say the biggest 2 threats to an American or British life or well being is their personal health and the size of the national debt making the national infrastructure fall apart around us so would happily save a few quid on the military first before looking for ways to cut NHS/obamacare spending. Sure, look to change what you are spending the health pot on, it's a hugely complex beast that can always be organised differently, but don't dare make it smaller. The objective for reorganising should be to make it better not cheaper.
wobbliscott - Member
Kimbers - the USA is over a Trillion dollars in debt.
I'd hazard a guess that it's due to waging wars it cannot afford. Not treating sick people. Of course your opinion may differ.
