this thread was moving towards “we should remove gender altogether and all wear non gender specific clothes”. Why? because 1% dont feel they belong to a binary gender, thats crazy!
ThOze crAzY traNsGendErz waNt TO FOrCe uS intO non-gEndEr-SpeCifIc ClOthEz!
😉
is not sexually attractive to me just because they have breasts and a vagina.
Still confused. So is a biological woman who identifies as male less attractive because of their gender identification or just the fact that they wear trousers and have short hair? Surely it's just down to appearance and character, and what sex organs they may or may not posess? Where does gender come into it?
ThOze crAzY traNsGendErz waNt TO FOrCe uS intO non-gEndEr-SpeCifIc ClOthEz!
Aaaand...... Im out
Surely it’s just down to appearance and character
But for the large part that IS gender
No-one is saying people cannot be non-binary or gender fluid or whatever. The point i am making (possibly badly) is that this thread was moving towards “we should remove gender altogether and all wear non gender specific clothes”. Why? because 1% dont feel they belong to a binary gender, thats crazy!
I’m not sure why you feel that, I certainly don’t read that.
No one is saying you can’t be binary or gender static. This is your problem.
ThOze crAzY traNsGendErz waNt TO FOrCe uS intO non-gEndEr-SpeCifIc ClOthEz!
As always Star Trek was decades ahead...
I’m not sure why you feel that, I certainly don’t read that.
Within the confines of this thread, yes they are saying that.
Why do we even need gender at all?
Indeed, soon we won’t I think.
And others about non gender specific clothing that i cant seem to find now....
we should remove gender altogether and all wear non gender specific clothes
I didn't say we don't need gender. I asked why we needed it. Big difference.
Within the confines of this thread, yes they are saying that.
I must be reading a different thread then.because they’re not.
Just because someone might want something different doesn’t mean EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO DO THE SAME. Funnily enough it’s not a binary choice.
I am good with saying we don't need gender. I think its oppresive, mostly to women.
It does not stop you from identifying as a particular gender.
I didn’t say we don’t need gender. I asked why we needed it. Big difference.
Yep, and i replied with why I think we do need it. Someone else has jumped in and tried to make out that I am saying that we shouldnt care about non binary people because there "isnt many of them".
we don’t need gender.
I think trailwagger does... apparently they would be all confused if we removed it... 🤣🤪
Someone else has jumped in and tried to make out that I am saying that we shouldnt care about non binary people because there “isnt many of them”
I thought you said 99% are happy so why change for 1%?
All I did was point out you saying this...
I cant see how we can remove it anyway.
People will always catergorise other people. Its convenient, if a little rude.
Ibam good with saying we don’t need gender. I think its oppresive, mostly to women.
Absolutely - let's do away with male / female sporting classes, let's run them all on the same field for the same 3 places. Let's do away with woman crisis centres/refuges, let's make all toilets unisex.
I'm sure women all over the country would rejoice at these oppressive things being repealed...
Tinky Winky is clearly trans. Tinky Winky (not sure about pronouns) is male but carries a handbag.
Absolutely – let’s do away with male / female sporting classes, let’s run them all on the same field for the same 3 places. Let’s do away with woman crisis centres/refuges, let’s make all toilets unisex.
I’m sure women all over the country would rejoice at these oppressive things being repealed…
I am talking about gender not sex.
If you read the thread you will understand the difference. I am the loudest voice here for the protection of sex categories for the precise reasons you state.
But sex is not gender.
trailwagger
My point is, gender non conformity effects a small (~1%) of the population. The other ~99% seem quite happy with the way things are. So why is it right to remove the gender identity of 99% of the population because 1% dont feel they fit into those binary roles?
I very much doubt 50% of people, let alone 99% of people are happy with their gender assignment.
A biological woman who identifies as male and therefore, dresses as a male, wears their hair as a male, maybe even takes hormones to appear more male and have a deeper voice etc, is not sexually attractive to me just because they have breasts and a vagina.
I'm not seeing why you are conflating gender and sexual preference ... in this context.
I don't think people should need to think about who they are or are not attracted to ...
I my view gender is important because for the majority of people gender forms a large part of sexual attraction. Its not just about who has what sexual organs, its about masculine and feminine traits and they are largely what makes up gender surely?
but those traits are mostly just constructs ... and to all intents self fulfilling
In deed this is the sort of BS pedalled by gay rights activists like Peter Tatchell
Contrary to the well-intentioned claim that gays are "just the same" as straights, there is a difference. What is more, the distinctive style of gay masculinity is of great social benefit. Wouldn't life be dull without the flair and imagination of queer fashion designers and interior decorators? How could the NHS cope with no gay nurses, or the education system with no gay teachers? Society should thank its lucky stars that not all men turn out straight, macho and insensitive.
The strong implication here is that for men to be a fashion designer, interior designer or nurse they must be gay... and "how would we cope". The flip side to that is of course many gay men most absolutely don't fit the gender assignment made by activists like Tatchell based on who they find attractive not to mention straight male nurses etc. expected to conform to the mix between gender and sexual attraction.
“we should remove gender altogether and all wear non gender specific clothes”.
One doesn't follow the other ... and as an observation from this thread that would upset those who specifically wish to dress in "gender specific clothes” be that of a gender that matches their biological sex or the opposite.
Absolutely – let’s do away with male / female sporting classes, let’s run them all on the same field for the same 3 places. Let’s do away with woman crisis centres/refuges, let’s make all toilets unisex.
On sport, absolutely! Use weight classes (or similar) instead. Would this help solve the issue of pay differences between sexes?
If the unisex toilets are all cubicles with sinks, etc inside and the area outside clearly visible to passers by, go for it. Would this solve the issue of there always being queues for the womens' loos while the guys all walk past?
Most crisis centres allow both ciswomen and transwomen to access, so there wouldn't be a change needed. Ideally, let's get rid of the need for those centres.
woman crisis centres/refuges
This is a bit of a complex area actually.
1) Surely vulnerable men and non-binary people also need help? Why is it just women?
2) What about trans women? There is a big kerfuffle about this currently, but how do you actually separate trans women from non? Are you going to do a physical inspection before you admit people?
I mean these are debating points, and of course I know why we have women's centres, but perhaps we should modify how we do things?
gender specific clothes
Apart from which way round the buttons fasten, I'm struggling to think what's gender-specific about what I'm currently wearing: a shirt, jeans, Vans.
Fifty years ago, these were probably gender-specific, but they're not now.
I very much doubt 50% of people, let alone 99% of people are happy with their gender assignment.
I based my figures on several published survey results, what are you basing yours on?
I’m not seeing why you are conflating gender and sexual preference … in this context.
Not sexual preference, sexual attraction. There is a difference. If my sexual preference as a biological male is females, then I am not just attracted to female form but also female traits, appearance etc. Gender cannot be just what you think you are, otherwise why do so many non conforming genders feel more comfortable in their preferred genders clothing or why do trans feel the need to transition to another gender if it is purely a social construct or just how you feel? It is also about how you project yourself and how you are seen by others.
but those traits are mostly just constructs … and to all intents self fulfilling
I agree some are socially constructed, but a lot are biological. Females are generally smaller than males, they talk differently, they have smaller noses and prettier eyes and fuller lips and they walk differently etc etc.... they are more empathic, and more agreeable, and less aggressive. All these traits both physical and biological make someone feminine and to be feminine is part of what makes you female gendered does it not?
they are more empathic, and more agreeable, and less aggressive
whoah whoah.
On AVERAGE this may (or may not) be true, BUT this is a dangerous thing to start waving around because people start to treat individuals as if they were average. We humans have a huge problem with doing this (it causes wars and oppression and all sorts) so when people say stuff like this it raises a big red flag for me. Whilst it may be technically true, it really should not be brought out and mis-used.
All these traits both physical and biological make someone feminine
Absolutely not - I am non-aggressive, highly empathetic and generally agreeable in real life (believe it or not) but I would not call myself feminine as I am very male in appearance for starters.
Making those generalisations is an absolute can of worms and very rarely leads to anything other than rows, accusations and disharmoy, so my advice is just don't.
Absolutely not – I am non-aggressive, highly empathetic and generally agreeable in real life (believe it or not) but I would not call myself feminine as I am very male in appearance for starters.
Making those generalisations is an absolute can of worms and very rarely leads to anything other than rows, accusations and disharmoy, so my advice is just don’t.
Well thats kind of my point, you have to be the whole package. I am not attracted to you if you are a biological male, wear male clothing (whatever that is), style yourself as a man but self identify as female gender.
On AVERAGE this may (or may not) be true,
Absolutely. I am not saying all females are empathic and agreeable. Its a scale and on AVERAGE women tend to be less aggressive. That is not the same as "only men are aggressive" because there are definitely aggressive women as there are empathic men. But on average those are female personality traits.
This is all getting lost in a muddle of posts.
The question was asked "why do we need gender"
I suggested we need it because it forms an important part of sexual attraction. If the majority of the population is heterosexual and binary gendered then getting rid of gender will adversely effect more people than it effects positively based on my assumption that people are attracted to gender as well as physical appearance.
But its just a suggestion and my own opinion, feel free to disagree or prove me wrong.
edit - this is also based on my opinion that gender is not just a label.
(Pops back into thread)
Well this is going well isn't it. Remember the "be kind" thing.
Just one thing though, I've never met any trans or non binary person who wants to eliminate gender, just gender stereotypes. It's all about choice, tolerance, respect and acceptance.
Right, carry on.
😁♥️
Not sexual preference, sexual attraction. There is a difference. If my sexual preference as a biological male is females, then I am not just attracted to female form but also female traits, appearance etc. Gender cannot be just what you think you are, otherwise why do so many non conforming genders feel more comfortable in their preferred genders clothing or why do trans feel the need to transition to another gender if it is purely a social construct or just how you feel? It is also about how you project yourself and how you are seen by others.
Hence why I firmly believe gender is nothing but a construct.
If my sexual preference as a biological male is females, then I am not just attracted to female form but also female traits, appearance etc.
Yes but clearly one set is sexual and the other is preference.
Females are generally smaller than males, they talk differently, they have smaller noses and prettier eyes and fuller lips and they walk differently etc etc
This is purely biological ...
they are more empathic, and more agreeable, and less aggressive
Nope, that is your/societies expectation ....
You might for example like blondes or brunettes .. or blue eyes or brown etc. or sailing close to the wind perhaps you might like large breasts or not... well proportioned or skinny etc.
As far as I'm concerned that's totally just your preference.
Gender cannot be just what you think you are, otherwise why do so many non conforming genders feel more comfortable in their preferred genders clothing
Because they have decided that somehow the clothing help define their gender ... albeit with the backdrop of society having decided clothing defines gender .. there is sod all reason why in the west women wear skits or dresses and men don't (excepting Scotland) ... its merely a convention ... not followed in the majority of the world or through the majority of history..
You only need a quick look at blackadder 3 to see men in tights, wigs and makeup...
But what seems more likely is that society expects certain behaviours or traits based on what clothes people wear...
Simplistically you could say a business suit (M/F) would give an expectation of certain behaviour that are different to someone wearing clothes for labouring.
Or we have different expectations of how we should react someone in a high vis vest etc.
To repeat the above quote:
What is more, the distinctive style of gay masculinity is of great social benefit. Wouldn’t life be dull without the flair and imagination of queer fashion designers and interior decorators? How could the NHS cope with no gay nurses, or the education system with no gay teachers? Society should thank its lucky stars that not all men turn out straight, macho and insensitive.
Again mixing sexuality and this thing called gender...
Many gay men just don't fit those expectations ... many straight men do... and that's presumably forgetting women can be fashion designers, interior decorators and nurses? (or bloody doctors and surgeons)
Just one thing though, I’ve never met any trans or non binary person who wants to eliminate gender, just gender stereotypes. It’s all about choice, tolerance, respect and acceptance.
That sums it up nicely. Everyone is on a scale somewhere between the two extreme stereotypes. The vast majority of people will have traits that have been assigned to the other gender at some point in history. Acceptance is key I think. Just let people crack on and live their lives.
Just out of curiosity and not looking to start an argument. How would dating apps work if everyone identifies as non binary? Or would it be a third option? Usually it's M seeking M, F seeking F, M seeking F, or F seeking M.
if everyone identifies as non binary?
Why would they? Everyone does get that people aren't being forced to be non-binary, don't they? The "99%" of us (still think it's probably fewer) can just keep on as we are, but not go about as if we make up "100%" of the population.
Just out of curiosity and not looking to start an argument. How would dating apps work if everyone identifies as non binary? Or would it be a third option? Usually it’s M seeking M, F seeking F, M seeking F, or F seeking M.
I've not looked, but there are almost certainly already NB dating sites/apps. Presumably, they match people up using different characteristics instead.
This thread started oddly, became interesting and informative with first hand accounts from @boriselbrus and a good discussion between them and @5plusn8 Then it went a little bit off-piste with lots of people arguing about how others might feel with no actual experience on either side themselves but has come back to form with another post from @boriselbrus. Think I'll end my following of the thread there on a good note.
Something occurred to me today. If I were to go out in a skirt, I'd no doubt get looks and people thinking 'zomg it's a bloke in a skirt'. UNLESS I were in Scotland and the skirt were tartan, then noone would bar an eyelid.
Madness, isn't it?
@molgrips - it doesn't even have to be tartan. I've long fancied a leather kilt.
Just out of curiosity and not looking to start an argument. How would dating apps work if everyone identifies as non binary? Or would it be a third option? Usually it’s M seeking M, F seeking F, M seeking F, or F seeking M
If those are sexual preferences then that's fine and they don't need to do with gender. If I was on a dating app looking for a partner/sexy times I'd be wanting to filter by biological sex. I guess there's a question of how fanciable a transwoman might be until I got to know her a bit better and I many guys might not be attracted to a very "butch" looking woman.
I was thinking more to prevent any surprises later on. For example if a male identified as non binary and looked female with a feminine name. On a dating site looking for a relationship (not just sex). Wouldn't things get confusing for others and vise versa?
You could talk to them and find out… radical I know.
Lesbians (same sex attracted biological females) I know are hacked off with the influx of 'lesbian' transwomen (i.e. heterosexual biological males with a feminine gender identity) on dating apps...
Why would they? Everyone does get that people aren’t being forced to be non-binary, don’t they? The “99%” of us (still think it’s probably fewer) can just keep on as we are, but not go about as if we make up “100%” of the population.
I still don't understand where you get the 99% from? (or even what list of masculine/feminine attributes to score against) or even for that matter what day/time of life etc to score.
I still think any half definitive list of these supposed masculine/feminine characteristics/traits most of us would end up significantly away from the ends.
(regardless of our biological sex or sexual preferences)
This is why statements li9ke that of
Imagine like a Myers Briggs test ... not only do few people get 20 in any of the 4 categories but those people change depending what day or what time of life etc.
Just to add to make sure you don't get this out of context.. that is completely and utterly different to someone who feels they are trapped in the wrong body (either always or sometimes)..or who someone fancies because what we are discussing is not some biological wiring but a view society has or doesn't about masculine/feminine... what I am describing are pre-conceived ideas of how someone should feel/behave etc. in a general way as a function of their biological sex or for that matter sexual preference.
I still don’t understand where you get the 99% from?
Trailwagger. It’s bobbins in my opinion.
Its because changing the whole pronoun structure which 99% of the population is happy with in order to suit the 1% who have a medical condition would be ridiculous.
Referring to people who’d rather not be labelled he or she.
I’ve already posted much the same as you, that many people will feel they have male and female elements to them, but are happy to go along with he or she, because they are predominately one more that the other. This thread is about the small number of people who that doesn’t work for. Is that 1%? Who knows. We can adapt for them though.
Something occurred to me today. If I were to go out in a skirt, I’d no doubt get looks and people thinking ‘zomg it’s a bloke in a skirt’. UNLESS I were in Scotland and the skirt were tartan, then noone would bar an eyelid.
Madness, isn’t it?
You'd be surprised. I frequently go out in tom-girl mode. Clearly male, possibly even stubble but wearing a skirt. Probably just knee length, denim or earth colours. Ten years ago I got a lot of "looks", comments, heckles. For the last five years nothing. No one gives a damn anymore. That's primarily in Scotland, but in South Wales, Lake District, Peak District, Yorkshire, Shropshire, Cornwall, Norfolk, Herefordshire.
I wouldn't go to a flat roofed pub in Mosside in a skirt, but then I wouldn't in jeans and a t shirt either.
If you want to wear a skirt, then wear a skirt. No one cares now. We are making progress.
I was thinking more to prevent any surprises later on.
I'm sure we can come up with a solution to this that doesn't involve upsetting anyone.
The “100x” was hyperbole from a parent trying to help us understand why it matters to their child. Being called something you ask others not to call you, repeatedly, can be very difficult for some people to put up with. And why should they? Let’s just adapt and embrace them.
EDIT: this reply makes little to no sense now the post it related to has been deleted, oh well
If you want to wear a skirt, then wear a skirt.
I have considered it, to be honest, but my issues aren't with skirts really, more like having an estranged relationship with whatever part of me would be at all flamboyant wearing anything even men's clothes.
it doesn’t even have to be tartan. I’ve long fancied a leather kilt.
There you go, and a nifty pocket to hold your beer money 😀
