Do you want to learn, or do you want to have a tantrum about answers you don’t like? Because there’s some good stuff here.
This.
It really is a first world problem though and there are more important things that should be news worthy.
This.
We’re worried about upsetting some poxy celeb whilst there are missiles being fired at blocks of flats by Israelis.
Do you post this on every thread on here? "You're worried about sourcing a rocker arm spacer when climate change is such an issue?"
Alpin to a victim of a vicious assault: 'yeah well that's nothing you should see what's happening in Israel'.
What do you make of the situation in some parts of the US (and in most places of higher education there), where not instantly memorising tens of unique pronouns on first meeting is cause for exclusion?
Citation needed. That sounds like BS to me.
Do you want to learn, or do you want to have a tantrum about answers you don’t like? Because there’s some good stuff here.
This.
This may be correct - I'm only "having a tantrum" at the personal sleights. And again here we are with inflammatory and unnecessary language quite openly and deliberately aimed at an individual - not a question of writing style at all. And yes I use some myself a few posts ago for which I won't apologise because the person I'm aiming that at clearly has a personal agenda.
Such fragility...
I’m only “having a tantrum” at the personal sleights. And again here we are with inflammatory and unnecessary language quite openly and deliberately aimed at an individual
You do realise don't you, this is the very concept you were initially claiming that you didn't understand? People using words that you don't like?
Well the first thing I make of it is, substantiate your claim
One of the posters in this thread shared the experiences of their son, who attended some US-based university courses. Due the aforementioned situation with pronouns, they preferred to just not speak. I used the word "tens", because there were thirty people in the group in question. The person in question was required to instantly memorise the gender pronouns of 30 people - I was referring to the number of people, not of pronouns (although that number is also quite large, and also unquestionable).
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/non-binary/page/2/#post-11889437
I've also lived in one of the more liberal parts of the US for a few years, and can confirm that this is quite widespread. Here's the guide from California State University:
https://www.csun.edu/pride/pronounsmatter
It has a non-exhaustive list of the 27 most common pronouns, and some FAQS on how they should be used.
So far, we have followed in the progressive footsteps of the US, and unless we reach some form of social compact along the lines of "live and let live", mis-using pronouns for any reason will become a reason for exclusion (it has been a pretty reasonable discussion in this thread, but some commenters are definitley more on that end of the scale).
This may be correct – I’m only “having a tantrum” at the personal sleights. And again here we are with inflammatory and unnecessary language quite openly and deliberately aimed at an individual
This may be because this is page 4 of:
from where I’m sitting you’ve asked questions and received fairly clear and eloquent answers. There’s been very little “flaming” beyond you being called out for ignoring the advice people have given you.
Which pronouns, do “tens” even exist?
Unfortunately yes. New York legally recognizes 31 (maybe more by now, this was 2017 data). It also has laws backed up by punitive fines of hundreds of thousands of dollars for refusing to refer to someone by their preferred pronoun.
@Kryton57 my comment about being a dick was not aimed at you, it was a response to P-Jay's apparently hypothetical comment about it being a dick move, which is why I used the word in my response.
I have no intention to flame you.
It also has laws backed up by punitive fines of hundreds of thousands of dollars for refusing to refer to someone by their preferred pronoun.
Refusing to do it is not the same as constantly forgetting.
Refusing to do it is not the same as constantly forgetting.
how do you tell the difference?
The person in question was required to instantly memorise the gender pronouns of 30 people –
Some things spring to mind, Don't teachers have to do this with names anyway? Aren't the majority of students in a class going to be him/her? for the others, don't worry/apologise/get on with life. when/if you get it wrong. I don't think anyone has the expectation that everyone is going to get it right 100% of the time. Do they?
I get that there are a bunch of these sorts of pronouns being road tested right now, zhe, per, xe, which makes it slightly more complicated I guess, but some of those will doubtless fall away.
I’m not aware of any of the above identifying as anything other than “male” or “female”, yet how they express themselves and their gender differs massively
So are you suggesting that any of those people using male or female should reconsider?
Sorry, not sure how best toword that question!
I genuinely don't see a link between peoples gender and how they express themselves. Certainly anyone I've ever met in my walk of life. What has always stood out to me is how a person conducts themselves, not based on whether they are male or female.
Must admit, I'm none the wiser after 3 pages myself in regards to how people are handling this.
One of the posters in this thread shared the experiences of their son, who attended some US-based university courses. Due the aforementioned situation with pronouns, they preferred to just not speak.
So, an unverifiable second-hand anecdote from one person, then.
Yes, as presented the situation is ludicrous, as would say a requirement to remember everyone's name. But it's a group of thirty people, realistically how many wide and diverse personal pronoun preferences do you think there were likely to be beyond he/him and she/her in a group that size? The only way there were "tens of different pronouns to remember" is if the poster's son was attending an LGBT+ conference. And if that's the case, get a pen.
Here’s the guide from California State University:
Well, IMHO that's ridiculous too, we already have perfectly functional words (them / they) without needing to create new ones. But in any case, where does that say that "not instantly memorising tens of unique pronouns on first meeting is cause for exclusion?" It's just asking for people to be nice to each other.
So far, we have followed in the progressive footsteps of the US,
That's not a sentence I ever thought I'd read. (-:
unless we reach some form of social compact along the lines of “live and let live”, mis-using pronouns for any reason will become a reason for exclusion
At the risk of repeating myself: no it won't. Prove me wrong.
The only thing we have to go on so far is seemingly "someone's son allegedly felt a bit uncomfortable in the presence of a non-binary person and didn't know what to say so kept quiet."
I don’t think anyone has the expectation that everyone is going to get it right 100% of the time. Do they?
You'd hope so, but that didn't seem like the case in the case of the previous poster's son.
"Everyone else had to note/use them correctly or were asked to leave."
In my experience of US Progressive culture, that's not at all surprising.
The problem we have here is, really, that you're hanging your hat on someone else's post when it's entirely possible that that someone else is talking bollocks.
And I don't mean that disrespectfully, it could well be posted in good faith. But our sole evidence for your argument is someone on the Internet's son going "hey dad, you'll never guess what happened today..." and I don't consider that to be an authoritative source. Sorry.
From the FAQ in the link you posted:
What if I make a mistake?
It happens. We all make mistakes! We recommend using R.A.M. (Relax, Apologize, Move on). The trans community often shoulder the burden of alleviating embarrassment and hurt feelings of cisgender individuals. Don’t excessively apologize or make it about yourself or how hard it is for you to learn new pronouns. Simply apologize, do better, and use the correct pronoun the next time.
RM.
It's possible, but the story would not surprise me at all, having lived in the US for a while. I'd drag my wife on here to share stories of her time in US University, but she has better things to do than argue on the internet.
So we can agree - tens of pronouns is silly, and the usual latitude for honest mistakes and human error is expected.
I'm guessing its all too late now for a Demi Lovato / Danny DeVito zinger
this is the very concept you were initially claiming that you didn’t understand? People using words that you don’t like?
Thats incorrect. I never claimed DM was asking to be identified as non binary because people were using words she "didn't like".
The problem is pronouns altogether. Just bin them off and refer to people only by their name of choice.
the usual latitude for honest mistakes and human error is expected
Just about everyone in this thread has said that everyone will error and make mistakes. And it's been said, many times, it's the behaviour that happens after you find out what is expected/hoped for that really matters. There are two routes... make the effort to try and get it right from there on in, with everyone accepting that you'll still slip up. Or say that you shouldn't have to accommodate people, because... 1%... it's too hard... they're attention seeking... I'm a dick... whatever.
It’s possible, but the story would not surprise me at all
Plenty of things don't surprise me either, but making things up to argue against them doesn't help anyone, it just further "others" people.
So we can agree – tens of pronouns is silly, and the usual latitude for honest mistakes and human error is expected.
In my opinion, yes. But as a (god I hate this term also, but here we are) 'cisgender' person my opinion doesn't really matter.
That said, whilst we're holding up anecdotes as evidence, I've moved in many interesting circles over the years and I almost certainly know more people who are variously 'unconventional' or 'different' than the majority of other readers do, and I've come across someone wanting to use new words (specifically 'zie/zer' in this anecdote) precisely once.
I would rather suspect that anyone screaming that this is an actual real problem wants it to be a problem, it's all a bit Muslims banning Christmas / political correctness gorn mayd.
Thats incorrect. I never claimed DM was asking to be identified as non binary because people were using words she “didn’t like”.
And that's not what I said.
Thats incorrect. I never claimed DM was asking to be identified as non binary because people were using words she “didn’t like”.
4 pages in and you’re still referring to the subject matter as “she” - really?
... tell you what.
Let's draw a line here because this is getting increasingly silly. Following the information and advice you've already been offered over the previous four pages, why don't you take stock for a moment and then explain what bits you still don't understand, and we'll try and fill in the gaps for you?
how do you tell the difference?
If I forget and accidentally say 'she' I'll say 'oh sorry' and correct myself. If I'm doing it deliberately I won't apologise and I'll keep doing it despite being asked to change. Fairly sure you'd be able to tell the difference.
Me, I'm crap with names, so I might well call you Dave if your name is Steve. You'd probably be able to tell if I was doing it accidentally or on purpose don't you think?
Well I quoted your post Cougar, so who's posting under your user name?
Me complaining about words I "don't like" has nothing to do with my OP, because DL has not claimed that they've come out as non binary because people were using words they didn't like.
So it is not the "...concept I was initially claiming" at all.
Having backtracked through the pages, I will now apologise and thank theotherjonv and boriselbrus for posting what they have because I have indeed learned something about non binary in between a lot of the personal insensitivity and insensitive language in the pages of this thread.
On the subject of pronouns is it ok to use the gender neutral "they" for everyone? - I would not have any issues with anyone using that about me although I might think it a little odd.
@boriselbus - thank you much for your posts. It's actually helped make sense of some things for me.
On the 'they' pronoun, yes it feels a bit weird as we are used to using it in a different way so it messes our head a bit. Wish there was another alternative but I'll try and keep up.
On the first world problem thing. No it's not as mentioned before and although I can't have a direct influence on what happens in Palestine I absolutely ****ing can influence whether I hurt the person in front of me by being careless or lazy so I will do my best to stop that. I will start being kind right where I am. Maybe it will spread
Unless every conversation I ever have with someone starts with “nice to meet you, what are your preferred pro-nouns?”
In my area of work it is quite normal for biographies and emails to have exactly this information on them
(ji: He/Him)
On the ‘they’ pronoun, yes it feels a bit weird as we are used to using it in a different way so it messes our head a bit. Wish there was another alternative but I’ll try and keep up.
Likewise.
I worked in someone's house recently who was transitioning and called them mate which they took objection to. I happily explained I call everyone mate as I'm terrible with names and everyone was happy. It's a brave new world.
In my native language there are no genderized pronouns but discussion has been stuck at ’what toilets they should use then?’ for couple of years now.
Is gender dysphoria not a medical condition then?
Lots of trans people would certainly argue it is not. It may well result in medical/psychological symptoms, but there's quite a debate on whether there is some underlying medical/biological "cause". However, if it is controversial to say Gender dysphoria is a medical condition its more controversial to suggest that everyone who is non-binary has gender dysphoria, and its almost certainly wrong to assume that because someone prefers they/them/their that their gender identity and sex don't match etc.
Who is Demi Lovato and why should I care?
Without being flippant, but uh yeah....me too! 🤣
To be honest: whatever gets you through the night then call yourself that. The whole sexual identity thing is MIND BLOWING to be honest & Im very glad I don’t feel the need to overthink it. For those who are afflicted/conflicted then good luck for a successful resolution. Personally, I don’t really see the World in binary terms that much - everything is mostly shades of grey. Some darker, some lighter.
But I still don’t know who Demi Lovato is....
(FYI Louis Theroux & his program on transitioning for an eye opener on what can be achieved.)
@theotherjonv, insightful as always. @boriselbrus thank you for explaining a complicated subject in a very simple way, makes a lot more sense to me now.
Just to really put the cat among the pigeons – I thought that the idea of unforgivable offence being caused by using the wrong forms of address died with the aristorcracy.
It lives again as a (very profitable) alt-right strawperson to pummel seemingly forever
I'm really quite annoyed about this.
I posted up to show how it's handled elsewhere (University of Colorado if you must know). I also commented that it was rigid and, I felt, quite draconian.
For someone who had never experienced that before then, yes, my son struggled with it at first of fear of causing unintended offence or being asked to leave the course he so wanted to complete. He has anxiety and esteem issues anyway so stressors over and above what he expects are always a little fraught.
I bob back in for a read only to find it's been used by Kryton to justify his anti diversity posts and for Cougar to basically insinuate that my son is either homophobic or a liar or both.
The only thing we have to go on so far is seemingly “someone’s son allegedly felt a bit uncomfortable in the presence of a non-binary person and didn’t know what to say so kept quiet.”
The problem we have here is, really, that you’re hanging your hat on someone else’s post when it’s entirely possible that that someone else is talking bollocks.
And I don’t mean that disrespectfully, it could well be posted in good faith. But our sole evidence for your argument is someone on the Internet’s son going “hey dad, you’ll never guess what happened today…” and I don’t consider that to be an authoritative source. Sorry.
For one I was actually there when the call took place but you seem to have a much better idea than me what happened.
Secondly, my lad has struggled with his own sexual identity since his early teens and, as some of you know, this resulted in an attempt on his life at 18, and again becoming suicidal at the end of last year, although he's reaching a resolution this time I think/hope.
I find it really insulting.
@dangerousbeans Firstly, I'm very sorry for your son's situation, I genuinely hope both you and he have the strength and help to improve it going forward.
However, if you or anyone else here thinks I've posted the OP for reasons of anti-diversity you really don't know me at all nor read/understood much of my posting history.
I stand by my purpose of asking a question as an honest request for knowledge on subject I have limited understanding however badly some may think it's written. If you or anyone else thinks that's false then you are welcome to your opinion but I feel comfortable in my own conviction on that point.
Whenever I start thinking about this (and I do have to a lot at work - it's a very hot topic) it perturbs me how little I gaf about my own gender identity. It genuinely never crosses my mind. The attributes that make me me when I list them just don't have my gender on it. I never think 'I am a man'. The little voice inside me frequently reminds me that I am attracted to women but that clearly and obviously is different to telling me I am a man. It is never a point to ponder, celebrate, or question. If I had a tick box of men's 'gender stereotypes' in front of me, I tick a good number, but not all of them but I've never questioned that I don't have a full house. I guess that makes me lucky (as are most others) to be comfortable in my own skin and that I identify as a man without question (even if it is never ever a topic of internal monologue). But....it does make it harder for me to appreciate that it's a big deal for others. That knowing their personality attributes, their physical makeup and their sexuality is not enough for them.
I'm getting better at not using gendered terms (using 'everyone' instead of 'ladies and gents' for example - And I've got out of the habit of using 'hey guys' which I used to use all the time even when talking to groups of girls but feels murky waters now) when talking to groups. They/them referring to individuals is taking longer - not to do it, but not to make my sentences sound clunky or remove the just a minute style hesitation my brain still put in sometimes. 49 years is a lot of unlearning.
Here’s the guide from California State University:
https://www.csun.edu/pride/pronounsmatter
It has a non-exhaustive list of the 27 most common pronouns, and some FAQS on how they should be used.
Where's the bit where it says you will be excluded if you don't instantly memorise them all?
It really is a first world problem though
Not quite sure to make of that 🧐?
There's no such thing as a Code Red because it isn't in the manual.
