[Closed] Muslims offended again

Are you saying that the Israel is aren't allowed to respond to militants firing unguided rockets?

If so how many Israelis would have to be killed before you allowed the Israel is to respond?

You cannot compromise at all Northwind and I am utterly certain that polarisation like that is what is deepening this conflict by hardening opinions.

I am saying that you say attacks on civilian targets are justified. But you condemn muslims for saying attacks on civilian targets can be justified.

Am I typing in wingdings or something?

There is a difference between premeditated attacks against civilians using suicide bombings and civilians getting caught in IDF attacks.

BTW I'm completely sure that there are plenty of Israelis who would support targeting civilians as well.

We weren't the aggressive, conquering and domineering far superior Ayran race who was looking to rule the earth for a thousand years. We were the blokes (and ladies) with our backs to the wall for 6years.

I'll reveal my hand here. A mate of mine mentioned his riding mate from holiday who was a ex-IDF soldier and fun etc. If I had met him I'd have punched the *. Hurt the *. I've said this before on here, what would Saladin say? Where are the Muslim Scholars today? The great Islamic empires of old, it seems to be converging generally more and more [\quote]
this must be the least revealing revelation ever. understanding its meaning and relevance would require more study than the Dead Sea Scrolls received.

 

Are you saying that the Israel is aren't allowed to respond to militants firing unguided rockets?

What, by targeting women and children and murdering them gruesomely in UN safe havens? What's the death toll now? 1300?

When, in your opinion are the Palestinians 'allowed' to retaliate? How many deaths equals justification?

You are a disgusting apologist for murder tom_W1987.

Did I say that I supported that? Here we go again.

If Hamas wanted to start a war and really cared about civilian palestinian deaths they could stick to cross border incursions and sniper attacks. To defend Hamas attacks as perfectly reasonable 'retaliation' and damn Israel on the other is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

Keep resorting to ad Hom, the bastion of the desperate.

Yes you have, consistently, on a number of threads.

You don't like be called out for it though but you have no answer when you are.

Disgusting. Apologist. For murder.

That is what you are.

Haha. You're only reading what you want to read yossarian.

Lol people arguing about Gaza vs. Israel

Oh the irony...

I don't agree with engaging targets near hospitals or schools using artillery.,

You're at it again with your "near". These are direct strikes on deliberate civilian targets.

And it's not just hospitals and schools, Israel has deliberately targeted other civilian assets.

Knocking out Gaza'a only power station was aimed primarily at harming civilians, not Hamas. Or do you think Hamas can't fight without electricity ?

Without electricity available to hospitals people will die, that's sick and injured people, including children, who are no threat to anyone.

Lack of refrigeration, water pumps, etc, will provide very serious health problems for the people of Gaza.

For those reasons plus the fact that the power station was a purely civilian target, not a military one, the UN has said that the strike on the power station may constitute as a war crime.

Tom_W1987 - Member

You cannot compromise at all Northwind and I am utterly certain that polarisation like that is what is deepening this conflict by hardening opinions.

Tom, you just don't seem to be paying the slightest attention to what I'm saying, this comment doesn't make any sense. I don't know what else to say. Are you confusing my posts with other people's or something? While simultaneously ignoring everything I do say? Genuine wtf.

although to be fair for the previous 150 years, "we" had been aggressively conquering and dominating far off peoples and lands with plans to rule over them forever

Konabunny, can you give more input to this thread? Have I been unreasonable in trying to find some middle ground between the anti Israelis and the pro-Israelis?

Knocking out Gaza'a only power station was aimed primarily at harming civilians, not Hamas. Or do you think Hamas can't fight without electricity ?

Good point, I didn't know they had hit their only remaining power station. I don't know what you mean with the 'near' comment, using arty near or directly at or anywhere in Gaza is unacceptable.

I am conceding that I think the Israeli response has been disproportionate, before this I believed they had the right to respond to attacks from within residential areas (basically all of Gaza). But they've pissed that right up the wall.

You win in that regard Ernie, I'm now pretty depressed about the situation and it's ability to be resolved.

[quote=Tom_W1987 said]Haha. You're only reading what you want to read yossarian.

Konabunny, can you give more input to this thread? Have I been unreasonable in trying to fund some middle ground?

[img] [/img]

NW of course you have made sense and raised some rational points [ pwned him so to speak]. Honestly I have no idea if he gets them and ignores them or does not get them at all.

I didn't know they had hit their only remaining power station.

I don't think Gaza had more than one power station, after all it's only 25 miles long by about 5 miles wide.

The low life zionists knocked out their only power station.

Actually, it wasn't NW that changed my opinion. It was Ernies single post about the attack on the UN compound today.

At the start of the conflict I was much more sympathetic to the Israeli cause, that's been slowly eroding but today's attack is unjustifiable.

I stand by my assertion that inclusive dialogue is needed for peace though. I would still like to try and get in contact with that academic.

Konabunny, can you give more input to this thread?

CAIR (muslim civil rights group) have just been on the news slamming the recent rise in antisemitism, as they think it will provoke a backlash of islamaphobia. At the same time, I've just read an article by an ex IDF officer on the Guardian that claims that Israeli and IDF attitudes have hardened considerably since 2002.

Along with the rise of Hamas, I can't help but feel that divisive rhetoric has helped fuel this hardening of both sides. Which brings me back to the original debate about fundamentalists.

Even if we accept your "accepted" figure, it's a big jump further to declare all religious fundamentalists "nutters" as you have.

If that's the case Northwind, why aren't you attacking those that brand zionists evil/crazy as well? My point being, is that I still suspect many on here are trying to hold Israelis to a higher standard than we would expect from Muslims. And if that isn't divisive antisemitism, I don't know what is. Personally, I think both sides are as mad each other but I try to tone that opinion down.

And before you all start screaming off saying that I'm trying to defend Israelis, I'm not. I'm trying to stoke a debate about how the rest of the world should interact with the parties involved in this conflict.

And before any attempts to murder me, I equally dislike those that use similar rhetoric in regards to Palestinians.

Ernie, Northwind and Junkyard, I respect your opinions. I don't want the discussion to devolve into who's pwzwned who.

Tom_W1987 - Member

If that's the case Northwind, why aren't you attacking those that brand zionists evil/crazy as well?

Because nobody did that in this thread? Or at least, not at that point. Inevitable whataboutery is inevitable. You clearly don't respect my opinions as when you're not ignoring them you're misrepresenting them.

Tom_W1987 - Member

My point being, is that I still suspect many on here are trying to hold Israelis to a higher standard than we would expect from Muslims.

I'd be happy if you'd just hold [i]yourself[/i] to the same standard that you demand from muslims.

My point being, is that I still suspect many on here are trying to hold Israelis to a higher standard than we would expect from Muslims. And if that isn't divisive antisemitism, I don't know what is.

If that's true.... isn't it the opposite of anti-semitism? If anything that's racist against Muslims surely.

I think actually though we hold Israel to a higher standard because:

They are a close ally of the US and UK
They are a major purchaser of US and UK weapons
They receive billions of dollars of US aid
They claim to be a modern, liberal democracy that cherishes concepts like human rights
The Jewish history should have taught them that persecution and murder is wrong, whoever is doing it.

My point being, is that I still suspect many on here are trying to hold Israelis to a higher standard than we would expect from Muslims. And if that isn't divisive antisemitism, I don't know what is

I think it is plausible to hold an "international community member" like israel [ my arse IMHO]to a higher standard than say ISIS or Assad and not be doing it because you are an anti semite

In this scenario my opinion is simply that if you steal peoples land, ignore international law, settle their land, embargo their country, etc then it is likely that some of them will want to kill you and destroy the state that does this
Nothing israel is doing right now will lead to peace it will lead to more hatred and more terrorists.

Would it defend it . no but i will understand why it will inevitable lead to what some folk call terrorism

FWIW as the US complained [ gently]about Israel tactics they have resupplied them with armaments as they are running out

I think actually though we hold Israel to a higher standard because:

They are a close ally of the US and UK
They are a major purchaser of US and UK weapons
They receive billions of dollars of US aid
They claim to be a modern, liberal democracy that cherishes concepts like human rights
The Jewish history should have taught them that persecution and murder is wrong, whoever is doing it.

Very well articulated, agree entirely.

Is it fair to suggest that Hamas and it's policy of seeking the end of what it calls the Israeli "entity", only exist because of the Israeli creation of the Gazan misery in the first place?

No.

yes

Is it fair to suggest that Hamas and it's policy of seeking the end of what it calls the Israeli "entity", only exist because of the Israeli creation of the Gazan misery in the first place?

No.

The Arab states wanted to destroy Israel since it was created. They have also tried to destroy it numerous times and have come pretty close on occasion.

What I don't understand about this whole thing is why you'd waste your time replying to someone who said in another thread that they enjoy windng people up?

To all the IDF supporters read the following.

This was 10 years ago and just scrapes the iceberg of attrocities that the IDF has committed before and since... In this case the review panel concluded that the Commander didn't act 'unethically'. That speaks volumes about the so called ethical standards of the IDF and it's operations (thankfully the Israeli Military Police charged the Commander seperately).

I never fail to get a lump in my throat reading this text and the incredibly sad vision it creates.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

I think it is plausible to hold an "international community member" like israel [ my arse IMHO]to a higher standard than say ISIS or Assad and not be doing it because you are an anti semite

In this scenario my opinion is simply that if you steal peoples land, ignore international law, settle their land, embargo their country, etc then it is likely that some of them will want to kill you and destroy the state that does this
Nothing israel is doing right now will lead to peace it will lead to more hatred and more terrorists.

Would it defend it . no but i will understand why it will inevitable lead to what some folk call terrorism

FWIW as the US complained [ gently]about Israel tactics they have resupplied them with armaments as they are running out

I agree with this entirely Northwind. However would you not agree that so far it has seemed acceptable to use terms like crazy and evil to describe Zionists, yet labeling Muslim fundamentalists as nutters provokes a response. I'm not trying to do you over in a game of whataboutery here.....

This comes back to my point about CAIR, who are aghast the the rise of antisemitic language on twitter and attacks across the globe - as they believe this will only lead to further polarization of both sides. If someone like CAIR is saying that, then I think people need to listen.

This is from an organisation that has been accused of antisemitism in the past.

@Bennyboy1 - soldier in question was found not guilty and apparently was even compensated for his "ordeal".

you mean like the jewish community in the wake of what's going on in Gaza?
Er, no.

so what you're saying is that when 4 British Muslims went to London and killed 52 innocent civilians and injured 700 more...the British Muslim community had no choice but to publicly condemn the attack...but when Israel and the IDF kill nearly 1400 Palestinians, many of who are innocent women and children, injure 7000 more...there is no need for the Jewish Israeli community to come out and publicly condemn the Israeli action...
by your logic it seems to me you condone the type of military violence where hospitals and schools are bombed at will, civilians are deliberately targeted with women and children being killed for fun...

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/idf-sniper-admits-on-instagram-to-murdering-13-gaza-children/

so what you're saying is that when 4 British Muslims went to London and killed 52 innocent civilians and injured 700 more...the British Muslim community had no choice but to publicly condemn the attack...but when Israel and the IDF kill nearly 1400 Palestinians, many of who are innocent women and children, injure 7000 more...there is no need for the Jewish Israeli community to come out and publicly condemn the Israeli action...

Let's not forget that there is debate among the Jewish world about Israeli policy, even within Israel. Unfortunately both sides have become increasingly polarized and this is not true to the same extent that it once was.

And I think there is a public desire for Israelis to explain their support for their current government. You could also ask the same question of the Palestinian people.

Tom_W1987 - Member

I agree with this entirely Northwind.

We've established you won't read entire posts, but could you at least read the name at the top? No wonder you were raving at me earlier about things I'd never said.

We've established you won't read entire posts, but could you at least read the name at the top? No wonder you were raving at me earlier about things I'd never said.

Well at least the first line anyway, some of the rest is a bit dubious but I don't feel like starting another flame war on whether Israel has the right to exist. It does now, whether people like it or not.

Do Junkyard and I the courtesy of reading the posts, would you? Thanks.

In this scenario my opinion is simply that if you steal peoples land, ignore international law, settle their land, embargo their country, etc then it is likely that some of them will want to kill you and destroy the state that does this
Nothing israel is doing right now will lead to peace it will lead to more hatred and more terrorists.

I have, I agree with some of this and but feel that you are veering dangerously close to legitimizing Hamas, Hamas could have fought a campaign that didn't involve launching rockets from built up areas. So whilst I agree with many of the points you make I can't agree with your conclusion.

taken from the other thread on the same issue...courtesy of Ernie_Lynch...the author of the article is spot on IMO...well done to Ernie for finding it
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/contributors/2014/07/25/make-mistake-israel-targeting-citizens-gaza/13159377/

[img] [/img]

No really, read my post. I know you've spent the entire thread studiously ignoring anything inconvenient but

Northwind - Member

could you at least read the name at the top?

Damnit! Sorry Junkyard. 😳

Can anyone join the IDF?...do they pay well?, pension?, upper age limit?

....i hate Muslims as much as the next bloke but i'm a bit powerless to do anything about it in this country....the UK seems to be sleepwalking to Islamification but Israel can see the problem.

....that's if i had to pick a side of course, ideally i'd like the middle east nuked into a giant lifeless sand pit, should sort the situation, no people no problem.

Pretty conclusive evidence from an Italian journalist now outside of Gaza, so he can speak freely, backing up Israeli video which shows that the first school was hit by errant Hamas fire. He also reported of the intense pressure exerted on them by Hamas to report in a pro-Palestinian manner, they are only granted access to sites after Hamas has cleared them and they are in constant and real danger from Hamas, which is why this journalist decided to leave Gaza.

Israel reported that Hamas where firing at them from next to the UN shelter.

Rockets have now been found in 3 UN schools. I don't know how many UN schools there are so I cannot comment whether represents 25%, 50% or 100%. Whilst the UN statement about it's abhorence about the deaths at its shelter was headline news it's equally strong condemnation of Hamas hiding rockets there was buried in the article.

@gonzy the Israeli public support the military action as they are fed up with incessant rocket attacks which have escalated throughout 2014. Hamas has been doing it's upmost to kill Israeli citizen with their rockets. The extent of the attack tunnel network which has been discovered has only galvanised public support for the IDF action. Those tunnels have been built at great monetary and human cost (allegedly with a lot of child labour and with estimates of 200-300 fatalities) for the sole purpose of killing Israelis both military and civilian.

The Israeli government has made clear it will apologise if its been found that Israeli shells hit the shelter. None of us are expecting any similar statement from Hamas about the 1000's of rockets it has fired at Israeli civilians.

However as I've posted many times civilians almost always form the majority of casualties in modern conflicts especially such guerilla style conflicts. The fact there are civilian deaths is sadly to be expected. When you hide your weapons, tunnels and fighters in civilian buildings (including mosques and UN facilities) that is only going to intensify the amount of civilian casualties.

It makes absolute sense for the moderate British Muslim population to denounce the terrorist attacks on UK soil, if for no other reason so as to distance themselves from exteamists so as to ensure their own safety from potentially rising prejudice and even retaliatory attacks.

deviant - Member

Can anyone join the IDF?

I don't think you fully understand the nature of a racist state.

Hamas could have fought a campaign that didn't involve launching rockets from built up areas.

i hate Muslims as much as the next [s]bloke [/s] scumbag but i'm a bit [s]powerless[/s] thick