bencooper - Member
It's based on a false premise. There's no law against wearing a balaclava or a niqab - neither will get you arrested. But if you wear either, you might need to remove it to prove your identity. Simple.
This ^^^ kills it. Usual xenophobic bollocks based on a misunderstanding of the law.
Do we really want laws to say: "If you want to live in the UK then you can't cover yourself up. You'll be sexually objectified like everyone else. It's the British way."
<dons budgie smugglers>
Objectify away, laydeez!
Trying some kind of reasoned argument with someone stupid enough to post / share stuff like this is wasting your time. Do you really want to get into a public argument with your cousin.
Unfriend him or just change the settings to dumb down his(her?) posts from your feed.
As I said to her, I like(d) hearing her "normal" news. If Facebook had an option for [i]"Everything, except hate speech"[/i] then I'd have gladly ticked it.
But moot point now anyway - as I've been de-friended and possibly de-cousined. 🙁
Oh well.
I leave this here for anyone that is still on the "Muslim women need rescued from the oppressive veil" thought train:
http://idealmuslimah.com/dress/niqaab/239-the-niqab-fact-v-fiction-
It is remarkably easy to block the content of any given 'friend' on your list. Only half a dozen of my 'friends' nonsense actually gets anywhere near my news feed.
Only half a dozen of my 'friends' nonsense actually gets anywhere near my news feed.
Yeah but I [i]liked[/i] hearing most of her nonsense. How her kids are getting on, what she's up to etc. It was just the BNP-lite stuff I wasn't too keen on!
I think the face covering should be banned.
Seeing fat middle-aged men in lycra out on a bike ride - I wish a more of them covered up.
Has anyone ever been served in a shop,travel agents ,petrol station or Indian restaurant by a lady wearing a veil?
Probably not. Would you employ a lady in a veil,probably not.
I can't see how veiled women are free to be part of our society.
Of course veiled women can do whatever they please. Whether their husbands could live with the dishonour of their actions can sometimes only be the nearest acid bottle away.
Religious choice should not over rule law and security requirements. I'm sure most companies/institutions are able to handle these things sensitively and respectively. It's within their interests to do so.
However the whole burqa thing looks even more rediculous when you spend time in the Middle East. There you'll see the wife covered up while the husband is in full western regalia, Bermuda shorts, vest, sandles. It just looks rediculous and highlights the inequality there is regarding women in these cultures who obey (sometimes willingly, sometimes not, lets be realistict) religious rules created by men. There is nothing in the religion of Islam that requires women to cover up their face. It's an extreme interpretation. But live and let live, they don't agree with our 'western decadence', alcohol consumption and love of Pig products. Each to their own.
Has anyone ever been served in a shop,travel agents ,petrol station or Indian restaurant by a lady wearing a veil?
It would be rather inappropriate for a strict Muslim fundamentalist woman to have a job. If it's important for them to cover their faces then it is probably inappropriate for them to have a job. Which goes some way in explaining your observation.
Of course veiled women can do whatever they please.
That's nice
Oh I'm soery ,its inappropriate for them to have a job.
Nothing like freedom of choice is there?
Its inappropriate for some woman to enjoy sex so it's ok to ship them off to Somalia for a bit of surgery.
No need to apoligise, it's not for you to decide whether they should cover their faces or have a job, although I'm sure you think it is. Despite claiming "Of course veiled women can do whatever they please".
Meanwhile, in the real world... Working in a bank, what we did if someone came in with a niqab, was politely ask them to show their face to a female member of staff so they could be identified, otherwise they would not be served. It is really that simple.
Yes the veil could be forced on a woman- it does happen. But would banning it prevent that? Or would it meant that the sort of total **** that enforces it on a woman against their will, would simply not allow said woman out alone? Unintended consequences.
I was being sarcastic with that comment.
Many veiled women are not free to do whatever they please.
I'm always interested in why people defend the veil so readily and make significant assumptions about anyone who thinks there is a case for trying to see them phased out.
There are many things that religon has historically imposed on both men and women. I believe that the veil is something that we ought to not accept for a number of reasons, not just in the UK but globally. From all I've read it goes hand in hand with other more oppressive behaviours like FGM. To become indignant about criticism of the veil seems a poorly thought out position. The veil isn't about choice and to argue it is shows a real lack of understanding.
And many unveiled women are not free to do whatever they please.
It is perfectly possible for a woman in Britain to willingly choose to follow a strict version of Islam, which includes covering their faces and not having paid employment.
And many unveiled women are not free to do whatever they please.
So lets also call out all those other restriction of freedom, instead of using them to protect this one.
What does that have to do with the veil? That's a strawman argument of the most transparent kind. In it's simplest form either you think the veil is an idea we ought to leave behind us or you don't. I believe we should, it's horrible.
I'm always interested in why people defend the veil so readily
Not sure anyone has what I have said , and others, is it is their choice. It is stupid to object to imposing a dress code on someone and then impose a dress code on someone as your solution.
The veil isn't about choice and to argue it is shows a real lack of understanding.
It is perfectly possible for a woman to choose freely to wear one. I am sure many women wear clothes they do not wish to for the benefit of their spouse [ both conservative and exotic]. I am not sure how you wish society to stop this tbh or why I have the right to decide what is and is not ok for them to wear. To imply none have a choice - are all Islamic women in one ?- whilst suggesting others lack understanding shows a huge lack of understanding
You may disagree with the position but it is a perfectly reasonable one
People can wear what they want it has nothing to do with me or my tastes or preferences.
Hmmm...
(ps, what has religion got to do with Xenophobia?)
These threads serve no purpose other than to give the STW die-hards another opportunity to toss each other off whilst sat on their invented high horses.
And Ernie stop pretending you're a forward thinking liberal when you're in fact a self confessed far lefty.
Zippykona tell us which veiled woman you know that isn't free to do what she wants ?
These threads serve no purpose other than to give the STW die-hards another opportunity to toss each other off whilst sat on their invented high horses.And Ernie stop pretending you're a forward thinking liberal when you're in fact a self confessed far lefty.
Well thank god you decided to come along and share your wisdom, but as everyone knows ernie is a lefty, you spunked your load rather premeturley.
Of course it appears on the face of it a free choice but I believe that it isn't. I believe indoctrination of children is what leads to the veil being acceptable and even argued for by the very people it demeans. To me it's similar to a JW refusing life saving treatment and 100% believing that it's correct to do so. Education and time will see the veil gone but it does require people to speak out and say it's not right. There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil. Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.
People can wear what they want it has nothing to do with me or my tastes or preferences.
it's not a fashion statement, it's a religious instruction to cover up so that men don't become enraged with lust. There is just no escaping that it is an example of misogyny in religion.
Wear whatever you like but just don't blame others when they want to check your for identification i.e. the same person ... 🙄
Try wearing full face helmet into a bank in the far east you will get pump action welcoming you. 😆
"We appeal to the public that they ensure that women observe purdah [cover their heads and faces] in public places. If we spot any woman without purdah we will sprinkle acid on her face. If we spot any girl using a mobile phone, she will be shot dead,"lalazar - Member
Zippykona tell us which veiled woman you know that isn't free to do what she wants ?POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
signed by al-Qaeda Mujahideen and referring to another group, Lashkar e al-Qaeda.
Sorry ,I don't personally know any of the individuals involved.
There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil. Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.
Meanwhile on some other thread we have people dictating that it's totally unacceptable to not turn up to a business meeting not wearing a suit.
It's a complicated business this clothing lark.
Personally I find people covering their face whilst talking to me rude, in much the same way as I find people who don't take sunglasses off when they talk rude. So I tend to avoid talking to either, but that's just my personal foible. I'd be unhappy with a law requiring the oppressed fashion victims to remove their glasses though.
it's a religious instruction to cover up so that men don't become enraged with lust.
Its not this at all anymore than me lockingmmy door when I go in my house says that every person outside is a scary robber.
FWIW the Koranic verses[ I assume you know it well] are listed here
http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/33-59.html
Of course it appears on the face of it a free choice
Because it is - they dont have to be a Muslim nor be that type of Muslim even if I disaprove
but I believe that it isn't.
Praise be to Allah we have you to make the rules for women rather than Allah - free from indoctrination in liberal western values concerning appropriate dress for women
There is a world of difference between choosing what to wear and wearing the veil.
IN some cases yes there is but not in the majority and not even close
Avoiding the subject and calling it freedom of choice is cowardly.
Bit emotive there tbh and no one is avoiding the issue but you are distorting "facts" to support your view.
Some women are oppressed, some of them wear a veil some of them dont.
You want to refuse them a choice to liberate them.
IanMunro - Member
Personally I find people covering their face whilst talking to me rude, in much the same way as I find people who don't take sunglasses off when they talk rude. So I tend to avoid talking to either, but that's just my personal foible. I'd be unhappy with a law requiring the oppressed fashion victims to remove their glasses though
Well, it's rather simple for me if they cover their face while talking to me I either speak to them in a foreign language, or I just point to the floor in an abstract way while quietly walking away.
As for those wearing sunglasses I say to them they are not Elvis.
😆
p/s: coming from a Muslamic world we hardly interact with those wearing full veil ... they have their own world.
So from your link
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
They should cover up so as not to be annoyed. Are you really posting that as a defence of free will? It is not even directed at women, "Tell your wives and daughters" It is instructing men to make women to cover up. 🙄
Any links for the equal rules that apply to men in Islam, just so we can be sure it's is after all fair and equal and not at all misogynistic.
If you're a believer then I am sure you don't feel oppressed that was pretty much my point. If people are brought up to believe that the best way to avoid unwanted male attention is to wear protective gear then we seem to be missing the point. It reminds me of the crash helmets thing freedom to choose soon becomes compulsion and soon after, normalised rightly or wrongly.
I don't like the strict teachings of Islam, it all seems way too demeaning and as we know Islam means submission and obedience, so F A T.
MSP - MemberThey should cover up so as not to be annoyed. Are you really posting that as a defence of free will? It is not even directed at women, "Tell your wives and daughters" It is instructing men to make women to cover up.
Any links for the equal rules that apply to men in Islam, just so we can be sure it's is after all fair and equal and not at all misogynistic.
My view is that it is pointless to question their religion/view as you have no rights to do so and you can't change their rules or way of life.
It is for their women to fight back or to stand up to them rather than letting outsiders intervene in their way of life/community/world.
If they want to oppress their women that's their problem but if they try to dictate their terms beyond their way of life/community/world to other people ... then other should be able to intervene.
Or start a full scale heavy handed war annihilating all to kingdom come.
🙄
That is one possible translation. It amounts to the same as "dirty slag, dressing like that, she's asking for it". But it can equally be translated to mean more or less "If you dress respectably and as a woman of faith you will be recognised and treated as such". It's a matter of much dispute.
Are you really posting that as a defence of free will?
I explained why I posted it up
Shall I take the attempt to move the goalposts as you no longer wishing to argue that it is to stop men being enraged with lust ?
If people are brought up to believe that the best way to avoid unwanted male attention is to wear protective gear then we seem to be missing the point.
You are stating the wrong reason, its like you have been indoctrinated / brought up to believe something that is untrue
It's a matter of much dispute
The dispute exists mainly for the non Muslim IME though I am far from an expert on it
Islam stresses modestly dressing for both genders and most folk I know treat it as an extension of that rule. Women should wear veils whilst men hats and grow beards at the more devout end or more accurately "virtous".
going back to the OP, if the implication from the image is that one might be 'scary' or a 'terrorist', as a resident of the good old united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, I know which I'd think would be more likely to be bombing innocent civilians 😯
(little bit of politics for ya!)
I'm all for religion of all kinds being gone so my position is probably not going to find any common ground with any religious teaching TBH. Not much point in arguing degrees of oppression as I think the whole thing is a crock. I know a line when I'm sold it. Perhaps you can tell me the modest Muslim line on Apostasy?
Given that all religions are based on works of fiction written at various times in the past then I don't think any religion should be able to claim special cases as to how they dress.
I explained why I posted it up
You made some nonsensical statement about locking your door (I think it might have been what you commonly refer to as a straw man) was that your explanation?
And it says quite clearly that they should cover up "so as not to be annoyed" who do you think is doing the annoying if not men? Maybe mountain weasels?
chrismac - MemberGiven that all religions are based on works of fiction written at various times in the past then I don't think any religion should be able to claim special cases as to how they dress.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14135523 ]Wot, not even Pastafarians??[/url]
OP - apologies for arriving late but in the interests of security, e.g, identification on passports and other such documents, airport-security etc, what is the difference in those head-coverings in your OP? Not being funny, just interested.
JY. Re the matter of dispute, the BBC religion website goes through the dispute quite well both in terms of what the prophet said and how this should be applied in Islamic and secular societies. So IMO, yes, still a matter of debate/dispute.
DenDennis - Membergoing back to the OP, if the implication from the image is that one might be 'scary' or a 'terrorist', as a resident of the good old united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, I know which I'd think would be more likely to be bombing innocent civilians
(little bit of politics for ya!)
Simple really ...
1. For security reason we need to check the person to confirm who they say they are so we need to see their face.
2. For security reason we need to make sure they are not bank robbers etc ...
3. Regardless of religion there is no Muslamic Kingdom in the UK in the past and the closest was in Southern Spain long time ago. So this community does not need to comply with their way of life but as liberals we are just accommodating them out of respect. Give a person an inch s/he will want a mile if s/he is not the understanding type. As for our past empire that's different story because our guns and ammo are stronger.
Therefore, can I wear my mankini now? 🙄
You made some nonsensical statement about locking your door (I think it might have been what you commonly refer to as a straw man) was that your explanation?
You claimed the reason for the dress code and I gave you the quotes from the Koran
Pray explain how that is a straw man 🙄
A straw man is to misrepresent what you say and argue against that - like say when you asked me about Free will for example or your quote above
annoyed
Well your poor arguments annoyed me - does this mean you have enraged me with lust ?
he BBC religion website goes through the dispute quite well both in terms of what the prophet said and how this should be applied in Islamic and secular societies
LINKY?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/niqab_1.shtml
this is about whether it should be veil or Full covering - I agree there is some debate on that issue of exactly what should be covered and it ranges. I know a [small minority] of muslim women who wear neither for example.
Read the whole link (!) it's more than just that.
