[Closed] Mosul- Iraq

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In the long term, unfortunately all "they" (the extremists) will achieve is putting Iraq back into the "dark ages" in terms of it's society.

We, the west, had a go at changing things

We created the conditions which "they" (the extremists) thrive in.

Al Qaeda had no presence in Iraq before we meddled in their affairs, today a group more extreme than the official Al Qaeda are seizing control of Iraq's major cities.

All this was totally predictable and Blair and his supporters were warned that they were creating the conditions in which extremism was certain to flourish.

However these warnings were dismissed as bleeding-heart leftie nonsense and Blair and his supporters pressed on with their policy of bombing the crap out of countries and then wading in.

And we are still repeating the same mistakes in Syria where the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant controls vast sways of the country.

EDIT : When I say "repeating the same mistakes in Syria" I of course mean in terms of helping to create the conditions in which extremism was certain to flourish, we never got round to bombing Syria, probably more due to public opinion than anything else. But we did bomb Libya and look at the mess we've left it in, although the media mostly ignores it - it seems that the fact that Libya is now worse off than it was under Gaddafi is just too embarrassing to talk about.

Tikrit also fallen today.

Iraq today, Afghanistan tomorrow.

According to channel 4 news, 60,000 American trained Iraqi troops, tooled up with American hardware, ran off in the face of 3,000 jihadi's, dumping their uniforms in the process. Given those odds, I doubt the beardy nut-jobs will be stopping at Tirkrit. And Al Maliki has just made the most unconvincing threat/whimper about a counter attack imaginable

Baghdad before the end of the week? They'll get there a lot quicker in all their new Humvees.

[i]...we never got round to bombing Syria, probably more due to public opinion than anything else. [/i]

It would the first time that they ever paid attention to public opinion if they did.

Good posts Ernie, spot on analysis

hora - Member
...this'll have been in planning for sometime.

No shit?

Sadly I am not surprised to see further cities fall. As @binners says it doesn't matter what kit/training the Army has if they don't want to fight. The country is in crises, there is little work so people sign up for the military but they don't want to fight, they don't believe in "the cause" and they are not going to risk their lives for it. The military has been widely infiltrated by the extremists, it wouldn't take much IMO for the Army to actually fight against the Government.

@ernie I think it was easy politics to make statements about Osama being the target and asking for him to be handed over (which was impossible as the Afgan Government had no idea where he was). Bush knew he wasn't going to be handed over so there would be no obstacle to an invasion.

We (the West) have created a very big problem in Iraq.

EDIT: Syria. We where never going to get involved after Afgan, Iraq and Libya - we (people and government) had had enough.

EDIT: Syria. We where never going to get involved after Afgan, Iraq and Libya - we (people and government) had had enough.

How could we get involved in Syria? One half is populated with exactly the people that we have been fighting since 9/11 in theory...which lead the voting public in the West confused.

Yep- we have had enough. The Iraqi government asked for assistance from the US- no help yet. How can the US help? Since hand over there are still daily car bombings in Iraq and it'd be knee-deep in mire even more this time. Who is the enemy and who is the foe?

Al-Assad doesn't fit the Democracy-model but I've noticed a big slice of Syria aint exactly overthrowing their leader.....so in the Arab sense he aint that unpopular.

Maybe Iraq is best left to work this one out. Whichever way it goes.

I'm really surprised by this, Islam seems such a peaceful, fun loving religion.

Dobbo - Member

I'm really surprised by this, Islam seems such a peaceful, fun loving religion.

As does christianity , and as does western secular society. 😕

As does christianity , and as does western secular society.

Don't get me wrong, I think all religion is a crock or crap, but Islam is up there at the top.

Al-Assad doesn't fit the Democracy-model but I've noticed a big slice of Syria aint exactly overthrowing their leader.....so in the Arab sense he aint that unpopular.

As with most things in the region, It divides along sectarian lines. If you're on the same side as the ones presently in charge, then happy days. If you're not, then things are pretty grim.

I've said it before, but there really is only one way to sort the entire region out…..

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Let the dust settle for a couple of decades, then get in there and start pumping oil again. I mean… can anyone see this whole thing not deteriorating at such a rate now, that they've as good as got their longed-for caliphate already. And theres going to be eff all, short of the above 'solution' that anyone can, or will do about it. So theres now effectively a 'nation' of insane, shouty, beardy, head-chopper-offerrers, who have a lot of Syria and Libya's (and now American) heavy weaponry, including possibly chemical weapons? What could possibly go wrong?

Thing is, after the last "x" years of war and the presence of Western troops on the ground in Iraq, i can't imagine they have the capability to develop WMDs any longer. And simple trade bans on critical items prevent any "nuclearisation" etc. However, those trade bans also hurt the general population significantly......

Don't get me wrong, I think all religion is a crock or crap, but Islam is up there at the top

Did you miss the bit where two happy clappy western christian leaders went on a crusade v the axis of evil where you were either with them or against them?

If only we could make them more peaceful like us...how many more do we need to invade till this works eh?
Just look at western christian history , no legacy of conquest or wars or invasion there is there---why can they not learn from us?

And Binners is right if they wont live like we think they should we should just bomb the terrorist bastards back to the stone age and no one should notice the irony in the suggestion either as they are the baddies and we are peacful and the goodies

i can't imagine they have the capability to develop WMDs any longer

I wonder if a East/West Germany style "wall" is an option? Draw a line across Iraq, and the Extremists can have the northern bit, and everyone else can have the southern bit. In about 30 years, when the northern population get jealous of the southern part having MTV / widescreen tellies, then they can "knock the wall down" like happened in Berlin in 1989. (In effect, communism wasn't defeated by the cold war, or military might, but by capitalism itself!)

On a more positive note - The Kurds might come out of it well
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27809051

Did you miss the bit where two happy clappy western christian leaders went on a crusade v the axis of evil where you were either with them or against them?

I'm talking about state of Islam as a whole, and it's actions throughout the world, Boko Haram being another fine example of this great religion.

As for 2 wrongs making a right I don't think we should have gone in to Irag in the first place either FWIW, let old Saddam do what he wanted, it's his country right?

I wonder if a East/West Germany style "wall" is an option? Draw a line across Iraq, and the Extremists can have the northern bit, and everyone else can have the southern bit. In about 30 years, when the northern population get jealous of the southern part having MTV / widescreen tellies, then they can "knock the wall down" like happened in Berlin in 1989. (In effect, communism wasn't defeated by the cold war, or military might, but by capitalism itself!)

Abit late. They are now 80miles from Baghdad. The Iraqi Government said it wont fall/it'll be a strong point but the Government couldn't even get a vote to declare a state of emergency as half the politicians didn't show up to vote on it.

Mental, they've literally gone through the country QUICKER than the 2003 invasion with less material and boots on the ground.

Just shows how ****ed Iraq is now post 2003 invasion.

i can't imagine they have the capability to develop WMDs any longer

Kind of a moot point, when you've got all the heavy weapons they looted from Libya, Syria, and now the American stuff from Iraq. From todays Guardian….

[i]Isis released footage of large numbers of weapons and armoured military vehicles being received by members in eastern Syria, confirming fears that the looted weapons would fuel the insurgency on both sides of an increasingly irrelevant border.[/i]

[i]Most of the weapons seized by Isis were taken from the al-Qayara base in Mosul, the fourth largest in the country, after two divisions of the Iraqi army fled the city en masse on Tuesday, allowing a far smaller extremist force to enter.

The haul included armoured humvees, rockets, tonnes of ammunition and assault weapons. Evidence of the large-scale desertion remained littered across the streets of the central city, with flak jackets, camouflage uniforms and ammunition clips being held up by insurgents as they celebrated their victory[/i]

Aside from all the military kit ISIS has $500 million from the Mosul central bank, I saw a quote today which described them as the best equipped and funded terrorist organization of all time.

@binners you really need to stop inflaming the situation with pictures of mushroom clouds, they just act as recruiting posters for extremists.

best equipped and funded terrorist organization of all time.

You mean the new Greater Islamic Republic government?

I imagine parts of Syria/Iraq and who knows elsewhere will become theirs.....

Would Saudi Arabia hold up? Whens the last time they fought anyone?

I imagine if Kuwait was invaded again the US would stop this..

@ernie I think it was easy politics to make statements about Osama being the target and asking for him to be handed over (which was impossible as the Afgan Government had no idea where he was). Bush knew he wasn't going to be handed over so there would be no obstacle to an invasion.

Well that's exactly my point ! 🙂

Handing over Osama bin Laden was merely the excuse, they were sure that Mullah Omar couldn't comply which would lead the way for invasion. While of course at the same time placating domestic public opinion.

Likewise Iraq's alleged WDMs were merely the excuse, Blair and Bush knew damn well that Iraq didn't possess them, otherwise to attack Iraq and risk the deaths of tens of thousands of British and American service personnel (we do know what weapons of mass destruction means don't we?) would have been political suicide for both of them.

The decision to attack Iraq was based on the assessment that Iraq was weak and that US/UK losses would be minimal, thereby enhancing the political careers and legacy of both Blair and Bush.

Moreover the certain lack of WMDs made non compliance by Iraq certain and thereby provided the guaranteed excuse to attack. If you remember when Iraq agreed to allow the UN inspectors in far from celebrating that fact Blair and Bush sounded totally exasperated, and as I mentioned earlier they were determined to attack before the UN inspectors had completed their work.

That's despite having claimed that Iraq had had WMDs for 20 odd years, which made a complete mockery of their claim that the issue should be dealt with with serious urgency.

The difference between the excuses given to the UK/US electorate for attacking Afghanistan, and the excuses given to the UK/US electorate for attacking Iraq, is that unlike Afghanistan the excuses given for attacking Iraq have not been forgotten.

As I suggested earlier Afghanistan was deemed a success (I'm not entirely sure why) while Iraq was seen as a complete disaster. It's logical that people focus on the reasons for doing something after it's all gone wrong.

Billy Bragg was right when he wrote this, he was right when he did this version in 07 and sadly it seems given some of the comments above he is still right today. Waiting for the great leap forwards. The relevant line comes at about 1:35

I still remember Bush landing on the deck and saying mission accomplished. Sheesh.

Then fast forward, Cameron said the ****ing same thing about Afghanistan. I had to pinch myself as by this point it was proving that Iraq wasn't and was racked by double-digit daily deaths from bombings and mass finds of beheaded men. So surely he'd have thought 'not the term to use'...

You need to make sometimes five or six times before you can be absolutly sure.

they don't play by our 1st world political and cultural stds.

depleted uranium

Link me to the research that actually shows DU munitions have adverse health effects. Apart from mild cases of death when hit by one (obviously).

I remember something sticking with me a couple of years after 'we' went into Afghanistan, and sums up the reason its such a mess now in Iraq, and will be even worse once we pull out of Afghanistan. One Taliban commander was interviewed, and asked why he thought they'd evntually triumph, the same as they did with the Russians. His answer: "we've got all the time in the world"

Link me to the research that actually shows DU munitions have adverse health effects.

I remember seeing on the TV news during the early stages of the Iraq War footage of British service personal recovering bodies from some sort of military vehicle that had been hit by US "friendly fire". They wore full protective suits simular to those pictured below (although that picture is of soldiers measuring radiation levels on a tank destroyed by depleted uranium in Kosovo) because depleted uranium munitions had been used.

I remember thinking "blimey, they're not taking any chances, despite telling us that depleted uranium is safe".

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LOLZ. The ideology goes back much much further than the gulf conflicts.

Muhumed Ali (not the boxer one) circa 1800, his son Ibrahim and the early "revolts". TE Lawrence and the "arab revolt". The betrayal post WW1.... even all that is pretty recent.

Heck, OBL even harped on about Andalucia being brough back into the Arab kingdom. They lost that circa 1600 with the reconquest.

The whole caliphate thing.... this is what they are after

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Although this time I doubt they are bringing science and a new system of numbers.

LOLZ. The ideology goes back much much further than the gulf conflicts.

The conditions under which ISIS has been able to seize control of major Iraqi cities is directly connected to the last Gulf conflict.

I don't know why that makes you laugh so much or why you might want to absolve those responsible for instigating the Iraq War.

Kurdish forces have retaken Kirkuk. Possible the advance is stretched too thin. Maybe Baghdad will be that city that proves too far?..

I reckon theyll retreat/consolidate.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/us-wondering-if-it-should-invade-iraq-2014061287499

As usual, the Daily Mash is pretty spot on with it...

Kurdish forces have retaken Kirkuk. Possible the advance is stretched too thin. Maybe Baghdad will be that city that proves too far?..

Or perhaps they weren't that interested in a city that they would struggle to hold so near Kurdish autonomous Iraq (if they even held it as claimed) preferring instead to concentrate their limited forces on the real prize - Baghdad, where there is a significant Sunni population ?

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/12/iraq-isis-kirkuk-baghdad-kurdish-government ]Iraqi Kurdish forces take Kirkuk as Isis sets its sights on Baghdad[/url]

[i]The crisis in Iraq escalated rapidly on Thursday as Iraqi Kurdish forces took control of key military installations in the major oil city of Kirkuk and the Sunni jihadi group Isis revealed its intention to move on Baghdad....

'Our final destination will be Baghdad, the decisive battle will be there,' that's what their leader of the militants group kept repeating.[/i]

"The conditions under which ISIS has been able to seize control of major Iraqi cities is directly connected to the last Gulf conflict."

Fwiw. Its directly conected to regional sunni loyalties, the confilct in Syria, Arab nationalism, the idea of creating an Islamic state, the ideology of holy war, the gulf wars, the house of Saud giving preference to American forces in 91, israeli conflict, the Soviet invasion of afganistan, the betrayal post WW1, the collapse of the ottomans, the reconquest of iberia, the iraqi supergun... and on and on and on! Its fueled by disenfranchised men from around the world and their mad ideological leaders. The idea that any one event caused this is ludicrous.

"why you might want to absolve those responsible for instigating the Iraq War."

Hahaha!!!!! Nice try. Did I actually say that? Why indeed? I meerly pointed out a but of history further back than new labour.

"I dont know why that makes you laugh"

It just does... the handwringing alone is worthy. Its a black humour sort of laugh mind... its a real human tragedy all this religeon BS. All this over fairy stories, dubious morals and imagined ramblings. LOLZ!!!

The idea that any one event caused this is ludicrous.

You then go on to ask :

Did I actually say that?

Brilliant 🙂

BTW I'm not sure why you left out John Smith getting a heart attack, which allowed Tony Blair to become Labour leader, when you made a list of things that are "directly connected" with what's happening in Iraq today.

Although I can see that doing so wouldn't have served the purpose of deflecting responsibility of how ****ed up Iraq is today away from the UK/US/West, which presumably is what you attempted to do with your rambling "history" lesson. I can't see any other purpose for it.

[i]Don't get me wrong, I think all religion is a crock or crap, but Islam is up there at the top.[/i]

Here you go fella. Genocides by their millions.
Biggest one by far is the colonisation of the Americas by errrm, aah yes, Christians. Keep counting down through the list, Christian, Christian, Christian, Christian. Hope this helps.

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll [/url]