You bunch of complete cretins. It may be your choice not to give your child the MMR vaccine because of some idiot quack mentality that makes you still think it can cause autism, but it's NOT our choice to not give it to our 6 months old. He's too young.
If you want your children to go blind or even die that's your decision but you're also putting my child at risk and that makes me angry.
Here's an interesting read from 2000 on the role of the local Swansea newspaper in the low MMR uptake rates in Swansea area.
http://jech.bmj.com/content/54/6/473.full
Can't you get him vaccinated?
Andrew Wakefield has a lot to answer for.
This ^
To be fair, I don't blame the parents (much), they think that they are doing the best thing for their children.
Who I do blame is Andrew Wakefield, who should hang his head in shame, and the national media for their appalling reporting of the study.
Who I do blame is Andrew Wakefield, who should hang his head in shame, and the national media for their appalling reporting of the study.
And Anne Diamond.
Can't you get him vaccinated?
They don't give it until they are about 8 months old or so. Children who have not had it because they are too young are particularly at risk if they catch it.
To be fair, I don't blame the parents (much), they think that they are doing the best thing for their children.
I take your point, but i would counter it with the fact that there has been enough publicity to denounce the flawed research and the quackery in the popular media that I don't think anyone is justified thinking that MMR is anything but safe.
Not forgetting Jeni Bloody Barnett
If single dose vaccinations were offered the uptake may well improve. Telling parents that it's Our Way Or The Highway is bound to have an adverse reaction.
My daughter got measles even tho she'd been vaccinated 😐
However not once did we question whether either of them should have the jab!
Telling parents that it's Our Way Or The Highway is bound to have an adverse reaction.
Or to put it another way - "look, we're the experts in this, we studied really hard and we've done our research. We're qualified to advise you and you really need to listen to us because it can save your child's life. If you chose to ignore us then it's not just your own child you're putting at risk, it's other peoples' children also.
I can understand that you don't yourself understand the science but that's not a good enough reason to discount it. This isn't a game and it's not a conspiracy. Just because we're the experts and you're not, doesn't mean we're trying to poison your children'.
If single dose vaccinations were offered the uptake may well improve. Telling parents that it's Our Way Or The Highway is bound to have an adverse reaction.
Everything I've read on the subject says that offering individual vaccines actually lowers overall uptake as the likliehood of missing a vaccination increases. It also can casue people to think along the lines of "if they are offering single dose vaccines then there must be something wrong with the MMR" which there isn't. N.B. At the time the only licenced single vaccine for measles was considered to be less effective than that in the MMR.
"Yes, I know you're a so-called 'expert', but Anne Diamond says I shouldn't" 😕
Ah, the Herd Immunity argument. If you've had your child immunised then why are you concerned about what other parents have chosen to do, based on their understanding of the issue? And how far would you take the compliance in the immunisation campaign? Exclusion from schools and nurseries for the unvaccinated? Benefit sanctions? Evictions from social housing?
I noticed that my doctor didn't call it MMR with my son - hopefully that means a few more get it done than otherwise. I do blame the parents - listen to your doctor.
Hmmmmmm - should I listen to my doctors advice? Or Anne Diamond?
If you've had your child immunised then why are you concerned about what other parents have chosen to do,
My son is six months old and is therefore too young to have it. So he is very vulnerable, which was my whole point.
And how far would you take the compliance in the immunisation campaign? Exclusion from schools and nurseries for the unvaccinated? Benefit sanctions? Evictions from social housing?
I think exclusion from schools and nurseries is a good idea and I would be in favour of that yes.
Not sure what differentiates 'social housing' from 'housing' so I can't comment.
Ah, the Herd Immunity argument.
Otherwise known as immunisation projects only work once everyone is immunised.
[i]the Herd Immunity argument[/i]
Argument? You mean that proven cornerstone of epidemiology?
Back in the day I visited the lab in Dublin that did the original (and unsurprisingly unrepeatable work for Wakefield) just after the anti-MMR hype started. They were a scarily incompetent bunch. It never surprised me that Wakefield was discredited. For the record I also told everyone back then that it was junk work - with some serious arguments from those that believed this junk.
Ah, the Herd Immunity argument. If you've had your child immunised then why are you concerned about what other parents have chosen to do, based on their understanding of the issue?
Herd immunity is the way that we ensure that those who either aren't vaccinated (e.g. are too young), can't be vaccinated (for whatever reason) or for whom the vaccine doesn't work are also protected. That is why everyone needs to be concerned about what other parents do. It's how vaccination works.
And how far would you take the compliance in the immunisation campaign? Exclusion from schools and nurseries for the unvaccinated? Benefit sanctions? Evictions from social housing?
You know there are parts of the US where such sanctions are imposed (well apart from the benefits and social housing). The freedom to choose what you do to and for your kids is not a freedom from the consequences of your actions and they can and do affect others. to put it another way, your right to swing your fists ends where my face begins.
The freedom to choose what you do to and for your kids is not a freedom from the consequences of your actions
<Applauds the eloquence of the argument>
I'm (nearly) 36, and I has to go back to have my MMR jab, as they couldn't find my records from when I was a kid.
I still don't like needles, AND I never got a sweet *harumpf*
Op
I think I heard someone from public health Wales say they'd dropped the age restriction to 6mths in the outbreak area...I may have misunderstood though...but if you live in South West Wales you may want to have a chat with a gp health visitor type person about it. Probably worth a discussion with health visitor anyway.
I think I heard someone from public health Wales say they'd dropped the age restriction to 6mths in the outbreak area..
That's good information, thanks for sharing. I am not in south Wales but there have been cases around where I live also, just not an outbreak like they've had there.
vaccination fans could try here for the (tinfoil hats on now) official opinion on things[url= http://immunisation.dh.gov.uk/category/the-green-book/ ]green book[/url]
well, yeah. MMR vaccine is over 90% protective vs measles after 1 dose, but that still implies up to 1 in 10 kids may not be well-protected by only themsleves being vaccinated - hence the need for less of it to be circulating in the "herd"Ah, the Herd Immunity argument
Nine month old son (second child) here.
Acquaintances have had neither of their children immunised. I am very keen that we don't see them until Udderlet 2 has had all his shots. Actually, I'm pretty keen we don't go near them at all, based on their appalling judgement.
At the time I wondered why the decision was made not to offer single vaccines. For in a short while they'd develop data that would trash Wakefield's arguement.
so you'll be writing to your MP asking for the NHS to give those parents the choice of single vaccines then - or will you post angry sh!t on a cycling forumIf you want your children to go blind or even die that's your decision but you're also putting my child at risk and that makes me angry.
Both ours have had all their jabs as recommended by the Health CTR. How do I know if that means they've had 2 shots of MMR, they're 7 and 9 now? Are both doses given as young kids or is it a later on booster?
What about me? How can I check - having had whooping cough last year I'm keen to avoid as many 'childhood' illnesses as possible thanks.
I guess the Health CTR can tell us, but don't want to waste their time if there's another way.
I wonder if there's a typical type of person who refuses MMR. Do some people not really understand the potential dangers of having measles?
At the time I wondered why the decision was made not to offer single vaccines
100% economic - the greater good argument as per OP
Give people a choice and they are more likely to take the choice you offer them.
theotherjonv - second MMR is intended to be before starting school at 5
read the green book chapter on scheduling - pretty sure it includes guff on "what to do with people who have lost their vaccination history" (assuming your GP doesn't have the records of course)
[i]Do some people not really understand the potential dangers of having measles? [/i]
No, they don't.
[i]so you'll be writing to your MP asking for the NHS to give those parents the choice of single vaccines then [/i]
No, the choice should not be available because they are less effective and [b]there is nothing wrong[/b] with the MMR vaccine.
so you'll be writing to your MP asking for the NHS to give those parents the choice of single vaccines then
No because as has already been established, the combined vaccine is both safe and more effective. Offering single vaccines is pandering to quackery.
I will however be writing to my MP to urge him to do more improve uptake and to consider the exclusion of children who haven't been vaccinated from schools and nurseries.
And, this isn't about individual choice, it's about societal good.
Given the choice, a lot of people wouldn't pay tax, or educate their children, but it's deemed to be for the greater good of society that they do, so the choice is removed. The same should apply here
I think that any sanctions against non-vaccinated children will break the ECHR and UK HRA.
Tony Blair did the most damage of all by refusing to reveal whether his son had been given MMR or individual vaccines - absolutely ridiculous when in reality the fall out form not revealing is potentially huge
Maybe parents should be forced to sign a form saying that by refusing MMR they are putting their child at risk of catching measles and list the potential dangers with stats. If I was a doctor and someone refused my advise I wonder if I'd suggest they find a new doctor.
Ah, the Herd Immunity argument. If you've had your child immunised then why are you concerned about what other parents have chosen to do
Because, as wrightyson demonstrated, immunisation is rarely 100% effective and relies on enough of the "herd" being immunised that the virus can't spread.
Maybe parents should be forced to sign a form saying that by refusing MMR they are putting their child at risk of catching measles and list the potential dangers with stats.
The thing is it may be okay for them to put their child at risk, but Herd Immunity means they are actually slightly increasing the risk to every child, not just their own.
Everyone had their part to play in the MMR issue.
Crap research, poorly reviewed by a supposedly high quality international journal, over-promoted on publication, with the inevitable media interest. Ignorant or wilfully exaggerated reporting in sections of the media (Daily Mail mainly).
Couple this with the pitiful, blustering response from the Department of Health, who initially outright dismissed the implied association between MMR, Crohns and autism without the strength of evidence to do so (that evidence is now in place, but certainly wasn't in 1998), and it's unsurprising that parents were and are both confused and distrustful of health advice.
Not many people come out of this with any credit.
Tony Blair did the most damage of all by refusing to reveal whether his son had been given MMR or individual vaccines - absolutely ridiculous when in reality the fall out form not revealing is potentially huge
I've got to disagree there. There is no way that the medical records of a child should be made public in an attempt to satisfy the public "concerns" for a non existant health risk.
I think that any sanctions against non-vaccinated children will break the ECHR and UK HRA.
Complete rot. Trumped by the rest of the population's right to healthy lives, preferably with their sight intact. An individual's human rights do not outweigh the safety of the rest of the population. Your interpretation, taken to its logical conclusion, suggests that incarcerating criminals would break ECHR and HRA.
I've got to disagree thereI've got to disagree there. There is no way that the medical records of a child should be made public
There's no way that commentary on parental decision-making in relation to a child's routine vaccination is, in any meaningful way, disclosure of medical records
Would knowing what the Blairs decided to do really have altered people's own choice?
Tony wasn't exactly known as the best decision-maker we've ever had.
Here's a thing, my daughter has had the MMR jab, yet she still got measles, albeit only a mild form.
