Ludicrous to think this began with Tony's crusade, sure didnt help but the muslims, christians and jews have been slaughtering each other since the day some goon dream't up their tosh.
Back to the here and now I quite like Boris's summary.
Mr Johnson also said that politicians had to “make a hard and sharp distinction between that religion – and the virus of ‘Islamism’.”
He said: “This is a sinister political agenda that promotes a sense of grievance and victimhood among a minority of Muslims.
“The Islamists want universal Sharia law, and other mumbo jumbo. Above all, they want power over others: and so they prey on young men who feel in some way rejected by society, and they fill those young men with a horrible and deluded sense of self-importance.
“They tell these people that they are not alone in suffering injustice; that they belong to a much wider group of victims – the Muslims – and that the only way to avenge these injustices is jihad.
“These Islamist evangelists have no allegiance to the western society they live in and whose benefits systems they abuse: far from it – their avowed intent is to create a sexist and homophobic Muslim caliphate.”
Mr Johnson continued: "We must not give the killers the thing they crave above all – the prize of dividing us. They say they want a “war”, or, as others have put it, a “clash of civilisations”. That idea is bunk, and we can show it.
"To prevent any such temptation, we must be clear in our heads that there is no sense whatever in blaming Islam, a religion that gives consolation and enrichment to the lives of hundreds of millions of peaceful people."
I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.
Quran 8:12, "The Spoils," Dawood, p. 177
I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.Quran 8:12, "The Spoils," Dawood, p. 177
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
Unknown site to me, make of it what you will
It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom.
IanW - MemberLudicrous to think this began with Tony's crusade
I can't see where anyone has done that - can you ?
But very few people would deny that arming, training, and financing, Osama bin Laden, for example, was a disastrous foreign policy blunder..... to say the very least.
And still policies which will clearly have long term counterproductive consequences are being pursued. Western foreign policy is, as is much of domestic policy, based on short-termism, and inevitably, greed. Plus of course the need of politicians facing reelection for immediate results.
As an example of domestic policy short-termism fueled by greed and the need for immediate results, look at the disastrous consequences for the West of the "live for the moment" banking attitude, which seemed such a good idea at the time, despite many people knowing that it probably wasn't.
.
....muslims, christians and jews have been slaughtering each other since the day some goon dream't up their tosh.
You then immediately provide a quote from Boris Johnson in which he claims it isn't the fault of religion.
According to Johnson :
[i]... politicians had to “make a hard and sharp distinction between that religion – and the virus of ‘Islamism’.”[/i]
and
[i]we must be clear in our heads that there is no sense whatever in blaming Islam, a religion that gives consolation and enrichment to the lives of hundreds of millions of peaceful people."[/i]
How is that backing up your claim that it's all the fault of religion ?
What saddens me the most, is that we as a society appear to be fundamentally ignoring the real issue behind this, which is the fact that there is growing anger and fear amongst the population. Anger and fear which are manifested in the actions of these two horribly messed up young men, in the minds of followers of the EDL/BNP, and in the minds of people deluded enough to think that UKIP is 'the way forward'.
Instead of eventrying to understand exactly why people,especially young men from poorer backgrounds, are becoming so angry and hateful, our government merely introduces even more draconian socially restrictive laws (what a wonderful excuse to force through the Snoopers' Charter), which take away even more of our 'freedoms'. All in the name of 'Freedom'.
What worries me, far more than the perceived 'threat' of 'terrorism', is the steady erosion of liberties that is happening in our society. Whilst I agree that there is a need to impose certain restrictions on total freedom of behaviour, I also recognise the need for opportunity for resistance. Laws rushed through in the name of 'the war on terror' are being abused; it's not just potential 'terrorists' who are being surveilled and monitored, it's potentially all of us, including anyone who might possibly offer any ideological resistance and opposition to the will of the elite.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/31/trade-union-blacklisting-bob-crow_n_2050010.html
Instead of focussing concern on things that do actually impinge on our everyday rights and freedoms, the media creates a diversion, so that we don't see what's really going on. Tv and newspapers parade ranters like Anjem Choudhary, so that we join in the Two Minutes Hate, and don't see the real potential effects of the increasingly restrictive and oppressive laws that are quietly being pushed though.
I find it incredibly ironic that Trevor Kavanagh condemns Anjem Choudhary as a 'despicable' person; Trevor Kavanagh, editor of the Sun. A vile, frothing hate mongering shit sheet, owned and controlled by Rupert Murdoch. Rupert Murdoch, a foreign national who has far more influence on British Society than any British voter. Democracy, much?
Just went on a bike ride round London. The animal war memorial thingy on Park Lane has "ISLAM" spray painted on it in massive red letters.
Good to see everyone doing their bit for social harmony.
'Animal war memorial'?
quartz - Member
'Animal war memorial'?
this thing
[img] 
[/img]
i've never seen that, thanks.
So was 'Islam' sprayed on by a religious nutter, or by someone wishing to denigrate the faith?
Someone who couldn't spell Aslan.
Oh I see.
Yep, that thing. There were a few cops milling around, probably trying to work out how to clean it off before too many people saw it. I didn't stop to ask who put it there, I'm not sure they'd have known anyway. But I assume it was a "pro" type, as opposed to an "anti". Unless they got interrupted halfway through writing the rest...
No mention on any of the major new channels...
Russell Brand, who it turns out is a bit of a beacon in a sea of quite spurious modern moral commentary, offers some [url= http://www.russellbrand.tv/2013/05/woolwich/ ]thoughtful and intelligent[/url] words on the subject
Meanwhile, attacks on Muslim people spike:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/23/attacks-muslims-spike-woolwich-attack
In spite of the 'Muslim Community' denouncing the actions of the Woolwich attackers.
EDL in running battles with police on the night of the attack (no arrests made though, amazingly). Face**** awash with vile racist/phobic hate and incitement. Yet the media wheel out Anjem Choudhary.
Instead of eventrying to understand exactly why...
Unfortunately, and regardless of the topic, there are a substantial number of people who can't differentiate between reasons for people doing things and excuses for people doing things, and anyone who tries to explore those reasons is all too often shouted down by the baying mob. (In general, not specifically here).
Russell Brand, who it turns out is a bit of a beacon in a sea of quite spurious modern moral commenatary, offers somethoughtful and intelligent words on the subject
Indeed:
In my view that man is severely mentally ill and has found a convenient conduit for his insanity, in this case the Quran. In the case of another mentally ill and desperate man, Mark Chapman, it was A Catcher In The Rye. This was the nominated text for his rationalisation of the murder of John Lennon. I’ve read that book and I’ve read some of the Quran and nothing in either of them has compelled me to do violence. Perhaps this is because I lack the other necessary ingredients for extreme anti social behaviour; mental illness and isolation; either economic, social or both.
An issue that needs to be addressed is the fact that we seem to now have a lost generation. Young people completely disenfranchised, with no stake in society, virtually no prospects, and subsequently no ambition. Large areas of the country now have sky-high unemployment rates among the young, and no-one seems to care. In fact, they're now being actively demonised for their poverty!
This alienation and detachment is ripe for exploitation. Whether that's from extremist preachers, the appeal of gang culture, or the easy answers supplied by the casual violence of the EDL, its the root causes that need addressing. And no amount of police crackdowns, or hardline political rhetoric are going to solve the problem
Well said Binners.
Before we solve our own problems what is this with the govt(s)(UK & France - now trying to drag EU into the war) wanting to intervene in the Syrian internal conflict?
Shouldn't the govts put all their efforts in solving their own societal problems first? What a bunch of busy bodies trying to arm the opposition? The problem will come back to roost.
This concept of self appointing world police will back fire in future when, again, we are going to ask the same question again why this happens here again ...
If they arm the opposition then the others can also arm the other side.
Talking about creating Demo[b]n[/b]cracy ...
🙄
If they arm the opposition then the others can also arm the other side.
and all the rich fellas get mighty rich indeed.. happy times
An issue that needs to be addressed is the fact that we seem to now have a lost generation.
I'm trying to think of an era in which this statement hasn't been made in the midst of some moral panic. I got back to the Jacobeans and then gave up.
Meanwhile, life expectancy has never been higher, illiteracy never lower, and crime has fallen to their lowest levels in 30 years:
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/archives/33606
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/25/crime-rates-falling-austerity
http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/about/faqs/filter/about%20literacy%20in%20the%20uk#q713
https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_dyn_le00_in&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:GBR:JPN:CHN&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false
Yet there is increasing obesity, education will become less accessible to more and more people, and with increasing unemployment and financial hardship, coupled with the enforced reduction in police numbers, crime will most certainly rise.
We are in danger of losing an entire genration. Complacency is not going to address matters much.
Konabunny - that's missing the point a bit though. The fact is that there is now a generation of young people for whom the aspirations their parents had are now an impossible dream.
Their chances of decent jobs or careers, access to education, or housing - things previous generations took for granted - have been completely removed. Meanwhile the welfare state is being systematically dismantled around them, depriving them of any safety net, or hope of help.
Then to top it all off, a government consisting entirely of multi-millionaires (all inherited wealth of course!), granted all the advantages they have been denied, and representing exclusively the interests of their rich friends, uses a right wing press to put out the message that all the countries economic woes are somehow all their fault - the ****less idle!
And we the wonder why they then feel so alienated from the rest of society that they will riot and loot at the drop of a hat, regard violent drug gangs as a family, or become so indoctrinated by a hate-filled ideology that they'll hack someone to death in the street
The story is 2 men run down deliberately a young man and attack him and kill him in horrific circumstances.
So we add in the folowing words, army, terorists, terrorism,road rage, beheaded, black men,london,police shoot them,slow police responce,panic,revenge atacks etc etc.
and you have a long running media storywhere as if it had been someone with undiagnosed or diagnosed mental illness it would be front page for a day, and thenn disapear.And there have been quite a few reports of mentally ill people attacking strangers and killing them.
The media do seem to like whipping up a frenzy - seems that the brutal murder of someone's father and grandfather did not warrant such an outcry - stabbed to death in the street and evidence seem to point to his head being stamped on during the attack.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-22348820 ]Killing of a Grandfather[/url]
A bit of balance may help to put some context into things as well as make for a more enlightened debate. Not sure the media is up for that approach at the moment.
Ropger the cat thats a terrible story,sadly it hardly makles a headline,but someone still died in tragic circumstances
Coyote - Member
No mention on any of the major new channels...
this RAF one was also done:
http://www.london24.com/news/crime/london_war_monuments_targetted_by_vandals_1_2211197
If they arm the opposition then the others can also arm the other side.
[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/28/russia-delivery-missiles-to-syria-anti-aircraft-_n_3347844.html?1369768982&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008 ]Just like this then?[/url]
Great- two nuclear nations at each others throats over someone else's war 🙄
Meanwhile the UK seems intent on arming an Al Queda 'opposition' (or terrorist group depending on who you ask). Surely this will backfire spectacularly very soon.
Great- two nuclear nations at each others throats over someone else's war
TBF Russia's announcement that they will deliver "state-of the art anti-aircraft missiles" to Syria appears to be one of the most sensible things I've heard concerning Syria in recent days. The anti-aircraft missiles will be completely useless against the rebels as they don't have any aircraft. They can however be used against any country which tries to interfere in the Syrian crises. As your link states :
[b][i]He said while he understood concerns, he thought the delivery of the missiles could "help restrain some hot-heads considering a scenario to give an international dimension to this conflict".[/i][/b]
Hasn't Israel vowed to destroy them the minute they are deployed on Syrian soil.
The fact is that there is now a generation of young people for whom the aspirations their parents had are now an impossible dream.Their chances of decent jobs or careers, access to education, or housing - things previous generations took for granted - have been completely removed.
I'd still like to think of my self as "down wiv da kids" at 26 and can confirm that while some peoples lives are probably shit, the above statement reprisents absolutely no one I know.
As the great philosopher Penate once said
"I've good food in my belly and a licence for ma telly, and nothings going to keep me down".
Well that's that cleared up then.
Hasn't Israel vowed to destroy them the minute they are deployed on Syrian soil.
Yes, that's what they've said.
Although I suspect if was really that simple and straightforward they wouldn't be kicking up such a fuss about it.
The Syrians and Russians (and Americans) appear to believe that these missiles will pose a serious enough challenge to Israel's god-given right to bomb whoever they fancy, that they be well worth the money and effort.
Well given recent history, the AAA may well be protection for Assad from France, the US and us!
Their chances of decent jobs or careers, access to education, or housing - things previous generations took for granted - have been completely removed.
I think that is over stating it by quite a lot.
I'd agree that prospects aren't as good as they once were but they've not been completely removed, after we still have something like 45% of students going to University, in my parent's day it was only 5%. OK, my parents got grants and now you get student loans, but we still have Universities full of students....
