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I’ve always earned a decent wage, but always been surprised by those I know on less with flashy cars and big houses. I guess debt has always been the answer to some.
I was bought up in a very happy but relatively poor household (Dad had polio as a kid so missed education - worked in factories until Ill health early retirement) so have always been tight on my own big purchases.
That GrahamS is like the wise old man (could be in his 20s for all I know) of this thread.
4K a month, single and complaining about single tax when you still take home a lot more than the average household income in the UK.
Some people need a reality check.
Yep. My ingoings and outgoings are roughly equal, but I'm perpetually a little way into the overdraft. I am however, a student in one of the more expensive bits of the UK, and have an expensive bike racing habit to keep up. I go through a yearly cycle of getting a little more money in over the summer, before going back to #debtlife for term time.
4K a month, single and complaining about single tax when you still take home a lot more than the average household income in the UK.
Some people need a reality check.
There we go, the people I was taking about that know nothing about my financial situation have appeared to be all judgey
if you read my post I fully acknowledge that I’m in a far more fortunate position Than most and I’m thankful for that. And I’m also aware that much of my situation is due to not making hay while the shined when times where good and we thought it would go on for years. but I’m still only one pay check away from things getting very difficult and losing the house.Of course if I don’t have the semi crippling debt that I currently have (although not for too much longer - brexit dependant) I would be pretty comfortable. But my point being, is that it’s semi ridiculous that someone who earns well and works hard for a living is not a million miles off not making ends meet.
Now I’m not saying woe is me, of course my debt is my debt and it’s my responsibility to repay it and I should of been more prudent in good times, what I am saying is s lot of people who you wouldn’t consider fiscally challenged just by looking at their salary alone are still finding it very difficult 10 years after the crash and are shitting themselves about the economic precipice we currrntly find ourselves on.
A decent income is good, but when you have s big outgoing it’s faitly meaningless. But again, i’m in The very lucky “things are tight” category rather than the “things are desperate - do I pay the bills or support is he kids whilst trying to have a meaningful life” category
but thank you got your judgement
semi ridiculous that someone who earns well and works hard for a living is not a million miles off not making ends meet.
stop spending so much then, it's not difficult.
stop spending so much then, it’s not difficult.
Player two had entered the game. And good to see @rene59 has a playfriend.
again good that you can judge what I spend with no information and make a decision that I’m profligate off the back of it.
Would it make you feel better if I said my income was low but my out goings were too? If so, how is that different to me saying my income is materially above the national average, but then again my outgoings are too - the vast majority of which are fixed costs which I can’t alter, the biggest of which (debt servicing & mortgage) are a leverage ratio of when my income was far higher (current income taking a significant step towards it - and it’s taken me 10 years to get back to this level - but lived many years earning half of what I do now when previously I’d earn another 50% on top of where is am now)
How is that different?
but again judge away
I'm not judging, just saying stop greeting, it's a choice. If outgoings are high and earnings are high and you are supposedly struggling, well... downsize, you don't have to keep up with the jones'. That is a choice everyone has above certain levels. It's simple arithmetic.
But you try buying three teens shoes, uniforms and bits in August…
Should have had fewer kids, or at least sent them out on the rob, eh Fagin?
I’m in the just getting by group. 42, Earn 32k, have two young kids, mortgage and 3k on a credit card. Funk Jr was ill when he was born which meant taking time off work, hence the credit card debt. Mrs F is a stay at home mum, so just the one income.
If I lost my job tomorrow it wouldn’t be good news. I’ll be paying the mortgage on our old, leaky two bed semi from beyond the grave.
We have an old Zafira and luckily my FIL is a semiretired mechanic. One bike, company phone and a Deezer account and gym membership are my only frivolous monthly spends. I feel guilty for having them, but music and working out keep me relatively sane. Still, I’m much better off than a hell of a lot of people.
but lived many years earning half of what I do now
I've lived my whole life on that, never felt poor.
Thought you lot would understand how western civilisation works by now.
I think they may be in their middle class bubble so probably not.
I prefer the term "Just scraping by"......Apparently the missus expects more ambition...expect another "divorce" thread soon.
I look back sometimes at the things we have purchased and think wtf, then realise that's where the money went.
I could have gone chasing the £££ work wise and still could now but would probably mean lodging away etc, as it is I've seen every milestone for the kids, sports days, nativity plays, parents evenings etc, so that has meant more to me than money.
We've got luckily zero unsecured debt, mortgage is 80k on a 230k house but we still work on the basis of if we haven't got the money we can't have it.
However this remortgage was the first without a little "extra borrowing" and we're looking to hammer and over pay the capital this time with our savings and mrsws' extra earnings if she gets any each month.
What does OP mean by living beyond means?
Is that having CCJ’s, declared bankrupt, debt collectors on the door?
Having loans etc is making good use of finance.
What Ton says, been overpaying what you lot darn sarf would consider a small mortgage for a few years now, in 3 years time at 46 it'll be paid off, and we'll be a grand a month better off.
No credit card debt, relatively small savings, though freeing up mortgage cash will help that.
It's a happy medium, too many people I know have worked like donkeys, looking forward to retirement and a healthy pension, only to fall over not long after said retirement. My dad included, retired with a full FS ICI pension at 50, gone at 52.
I mean by having things you cannot afford.
im a married father of two young children, who is lucky to have parents that have been very generous to me. We’ve been able to do things we deffo couldnt afford, such as buying a new car. Had we not had this we’d be in serious debt.
We just see a lot of folk whom seem to have all the latest and greatest everywhere we go.
I am also the current sole earner and my salary is just under 25k per annum.
Apologies for the briefness, I don’t particularly enjoy typing on the phone.
What does OP mean by living beyond means?
I would guess it means buying things you can't afford. For example you have no spare money but take out a loan for a new £4k bike (even though you already have 3 bikes in the garage).
I don't think I have ever lived beyond my means but I do use up all the money I get. Why wouldn't I?
No. Im the tightest person I know with a small house, old van & generally scruffy appearance. I never made the lifestyle choice to get married or have children as they seem a moneypit.
Earn far more than I need to get by & overpay my pension to remain in the 20% tax bracket. Looking forward to early retirement.
I get huge satisfaction knowing the government arent stealing more of my money that is absolutely necessary.
I used to be careless with money and that led to an awful lot of stress.
6 weeks of unemployment in 2009 was the wake up call and I basically stopped spending, I didn'y buy as much as a magazine for four years and I paid student loans, car etc off early and stopped silly spending.
I'm a bit too far the other way now. Pretty much a tight arse but in the black.
Used to be terrible with money always on the overdraft and credit card buying things I didn’t need. Loans for expensive cars. No savings. Got made redundant during the last recession and the act of being jobless and penniless was a real kick up the ar53. Managed to get a good job a few years down the line after doing a bit of freelance work and cleared my unsecured debts. Now my outgoings (mortgage food bills ) are half what I earn. Car is 12 yrs old and paid for. Only debt being the mortgage. I buy my bikes off eBay and when I have a bit of spare cash it goes in savings or the watch fund.
I live within my means and always have. I think it's down to my parents attitude to money and debt. When I was on minimum wage, young and single I lived extremely cheaply as a lodger in someone's house, thought carefully about every penny I spent, would only have one or two drinks if out at the pub, chose value range food shopping but would get treated by my parents to a holiday or meals out sometimes and a nice birthday present so I felt very privileged and they paid for my uni education so I was lucky not to be saddled with debt when starting out in life.
I did take on a small amount of debt when starting my business and over the years as my income has risen so has my spending though I had to actually consciously tell my self to stop watching every penny and enjoy my earnings once I was better off. Having had a partner with a very good job and no kids for several years now things are much more affordable and I don't really want for anything but we're still sensible as hoping to go part time in a few years.
Mortgage 94k left.
Car loan off in laws £7k left.
Personal loan for kitchen. £3k left
Two incomes in our house. Both earn an average UK wage income Large wedge is spent on childcare.
Never have spare money after we save £250 a month because I do stupid things like buy 4k TVs, run three cars, three mobile contracts etc. Foolish stuff. But we do save £250 a month so it ain't bad.
Pre kids we used to have brand new cars on PCP and stuff. Never again.
I live a nice life in my eyes. I would always like more but who wouldn't?
Out of curiosity, how many are arranging the finances in preparation for Brexit?
How common do you think doing so is for the wider UK population?
Certainly for myself the income stream that justifies my employment is already struggling. Won’t take too much of a knock to receive a P45.
Won’t take too much of a knock to receive a P45.
I know where there might be a job going in Inverness....
😂
Its not me you need to convince
I think it's a cultural thing. In my 20's, I had a good salary but only spent what I absolutely needed to. All my furniture was secondhand, anywhere I went I camped, etc, so that I could build up a buffer. My friends and colleagues were the same; if you couldn't afford it, you didn't spend it. I only borrowed for a mortgage - and yes, house prices were lower, but the mortgage interest rate was 15%.
Student loans have, I think, encouraged debt. If you owe £30k, what's another 5k?
Shed loads of debt here. Built up from loans for cars (used 7yr old ones, not new) and unexpected repair bills, setting up a business for Mrs pp that hasn't done as well as intended, and what must be general living beyond our means. Had a big wake up call this year when we consolidated all the little overdrafts and CCs into one loan and spending has been massively cut back since then.
What is most frustrating is that we don't live some sort of lavish lifestyle. Holidays tend to be camping in the UK or occasional weekends, never had these fancy all inclusive Spanish holidays or anything like that, majority of furniture is bought second hand. Then I look around at all the crap and clutter in our house (3 young children and all the mess that brings) and hate myself for letting it get to the state it's in.
We're now at the point where we are paying off the debt, but will be doing so for the next five years, meaning that it's virtually impossible to save anything at the same time. We have no-one to blame but ourselves and will work our own way out of it.
I earn a good living, and OrangeSpyderWoman works and does decently too. Cost of living in the Paris area is comparable to London, but I shouldn't complain. I do waste a lot on frivolous items that I don't need but want. Debt is only mortgage to pay back and a loan on a car that I could have bought outright if I'd eaten into savings, but money is relatively cheap to borrow at the moment.
I do buy a staggering amount of tat and gadgets that I don't need and if I'm honest I could (and should) change that and start putting more away for a rainy day or for my kids. At one point I improved things just by counting on a monthly basis all the stuff I wasted money on and that was a stark realisation. I should do that again.
Only dept is the mortgage which will be gone in 2 years. Then we squirrel away everything for 10 years and take early retirement.
Cars are old. Bikes are old.
We have "nice" stuff, but that is paid for by saving up front and getting the best deal possible.
Pffft. I'm still riding 26" wheels...
We had this argument tj, and you are taking the same path as the previous arguments which means you can’t make the distinction between a simple pragmatic statement and your whole world view of “stop moaning if you take home more than £5k a month”
The distinction is simple to grasp, and let’s face it you are underneath an intelligent fellow.
Please stop arguing over a pragmatic statement I made that I still believe to be a fair view of income requirements in the Capital.
Obviously I have to again point out that that £5k includes all the subsidies and tax credits and child care allowances..
But hey, you enjoy the stage... off you go tap dancing 🕺
The original question wasn't about debt, or lack of it though - it was living within or beyond your means.
To me, living beyond your means implies spending more than you earn. If you have debt (regardless of the amount) and you're paying it off and it's not getting any worse, then you're living within your means.
For those to whom being financially competent comes easy, it's a skill, just like any other. Some have it, some don't, some work to get good at it, some find the ability to budget difficult. Just because it's easy to you, doesn't mean it's the same to everyone. Some people are naturals at riding bikes and would struggle to understand why someone else might find it difficult. The worst thing you can do is get on your high horse and be judgemental about it as that's what leads people into depression and suicide over (comparatively small amounts of) money. Ask me how I know how that feels..
5k a month net is a good income.
However if you live in the South East/London commuter belt then it won't go very far.
A modest house in a decent area can easily cost £1500 - £2000. Throw in a few other expenses, season pass etc and that 5k quickly disappears.
1st World problem and all that but 5k a month does not make you wealthy. You're not poor but certainly not rich.
How any family can have a decent standard of living on less than £3k a month net, is beyond me. By decent I mean comfortable home, holidays, good food. What any reasonable person would expect a working family to be able to afford.
These things are all relative, I can see where bikebuoy and sofaboy are coming from in that even at higher incomes you can live beyond your means (this was the question, yes?) however those people could downsize and relieve the burden. Well, in Sheffield anyway, I have no idea how far out of London you would have to go to do that. Probably Sheffield.
Personally we're doing alright though there have been a few tight months, a year and a half in fact (how time flies when you're having fun) thanks to unplanned expenditures (car maintenance, funeral costs - the usual). Not beyond our means by any stretch and doing rather well but there is a clock ticking on my job and right now I have no idea what I'll be doing in 6 months never mind 6 years.
bikebouy - what you actually mean is you are struggling to have a comfortable middle class lifestyle in London on £100 000 a year. Its utter nonsense to suggest you are struggling in absolute terms.
Do you live in a crowded insecure rented flat? Or have you bought a house? Own a car or get the bus to work? Ever had to use a food bank?
Seriously dude - you need a large dose of reality and to get a clue what the reality is for most folk. You are among the richest few % of the countries population. that is a simple fact.
5k a month net is a good income.
However if you live in the South East/London commuter belt then it won’t go very far.
Yeah, we know. We get all the details from BB every time there is a money thread. TJ disagrees. Edit: As illustrated above.
Out of curiosity, how many are arranging the finances in preparation for Brexit?
I logged a shit tonne of hours on various Fallout games before the kids came along, does that count?
By decent I mean comfortable home, holidays, good food. What any reasonable person would expect a working family to be able to afford.
I think a big part of the problem is that the modern housing market means that, for those that didn't get on the ladder early enough, the "comfortable home" part of that equation accounts for more than two-thirds of their take-home pay.
We're OK. I have a pretty good job, but Mrs Lunge is now earning just under half what she was a year ago. Thankfully, we have a small mortgage, 1 old car that's cheap to run and relatively cheap habits. I do have a bit of a spending habit but am really trying to chop it down at the moment, doing more running (cheap) than cycling (expensive) is certainly helping that.
I could/should save more and I could/should be more careful.
a comfortable middle class lifestyle
That's because a £100k a year isn't "middle class" anymore if you have to spend nearly half of it just to pay for your house, before you even heat it or feed yourself.
Do you live in a crowded insecure rented flat? Or have you bought a house? Own a car or get the bus to work? Ever had to use a food bank?
The things you are highlighting are things people living in poverty have to do.
IMO Bikebuoy is a typical example of the modern UK, you can be an established professional person, with apparently a good income and have way less disposable income than someone in a similar position did 30 years ago.
How any family can have a decent standard of living on less than £3k a month net, is beyond me. By decent I mean comfortable home, holidays, good food. What any reasonable person would expect a working family to be able to afford.
This is the reality for vast numbers of people in our country. those things are so far beyond them that they will always remain a dream.
Out of curiosity, how many are arranging the finances in preparation for Brexit?
Only thing I've done so far is make sure that we've bought into some "excluding UK" funds under my daughter's JISA to spread the risk to her savings a bit.
Not honestly sure what else we should do? Don't really hold any investments beyond the trust funds for the kids. And we're fortunate in that I don't think our job security is likely to be impacted.
£100 000 a year not "comfortable middle class" Utter nonsense. It puts you firmly in the richest part of our society
If living in a insecure rented flat is poverty then half the country are in poverty. If not owning a car...........
Some of you really have no idea what the reality is for huge amounts of people in this country