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I've learned that Charlie isn't very good at internet debate. 😀
That was never my intention Joolsburger, but if this thread encourages open minded consideration of ether side then that can only be a good thing right?
Stephan Hoeller !!
I've learned that Charlie isn't very good at internet debate
Pah! I won you!
Tyger: The problem with using "miracles" to justify faith is that you overlook the millions and millions of times throughout the ages when people have prayed for one and nothing has happened.
For me it's the fact that in any natural disaster it's always thousands of poor and usually very devout people who end up dead that leads me to believe that there is really no one listening up there.
I have however, no doubt that religion has a huge capacity to make people feel better about themselves or their loved ones, so even if it has no basis in fact, it has meaning for the individual who believes and I for one am quite cool with that.
Life has no meaning; or equally it has whatever meaning YOU choose for yourself to give it!
Nah, Charlie, I'd be happy to concede a draw because as you rightly point out, I am arguing about things which I have little knowledge and even less experience. STW in a nutshell, basically!
Hah! you concede! Loser!
But really, do watch the Jessica Utts video. It's pretty long but if you understand Bayes, you can probably skip the first chunk.
Ok, I'll have a look.
My thoughts about ESP are that it's rubbish, but if the evidence shows differently, and is good reliable and repeatable I will accept it.
Has James Randi looked at it? I believe there is money to be won..
It was a meta-analysis of lots of ESP research, the evidence came down in favour of ESP
If the evidence is good, I would accept it, although I would admit it would pain me to do so...
i would get in touch with these then and claim my money
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
you can search the claims on there ,there are some beauties. A woman who claimed Jesus gave her the power to make people pee in their pants is one of my favourites.
I agree religion gves peole comfort and often and immense capacity for great acts - forgiveness for eexample. However the two main problems I have with it are.
1. Even if true they cannot explain what their god does - it is unknowable and has some serious problems with internal consistency. All loving and all powerful yet we suffer, free will or pre ordained by god , the devil,miracles etc.
2. It fails to answer the fundamental issue and you can then just say the same about god. How did god get here , what made god etc. At least we know we exist and have a reasonably robust [ fits the observed data better than creationism] understanding of how this came to be.
produce data/evidence of god and I will accept I was wrong.
how about:
1. We are born unto earth and not into heaven, here things are not under the control of God but nature, man and time.
2. God is not there to be proved but found. seek and you will find.
But don't expect to find the answer in books, on youtube, through others or even scriptures, they can only offer suggestion. opinion, comment, conjecture or confusion. (and it all comes in no particular order)
its all there if you are willing to look. seek and you will find. personally.
What you wibbling on abahyt now, Nutt? You bin smoking that funny baccy again?
FFS.
I wondered where you had got to, have you been reading little brother?
(and no, I'm drug free.)
Hi MrNutt
I've just stumbled across this thread, must be the most number of postings on any subject in a 24 hour period. Most of the debate has been quite erudite, too.
I think there's a difference between faith, being what you believe, and the practice of participating in organised religion. Any group activity can be either supportive and helpful, or offputting. I guess the trick is, if you want to explore faith, to find a group that suits your temperament. I'm an occasional CoE attendee (weddings, Christmas and Rememberance Sunday mainly), and I like the community aspect of it. I'd also agree with several previous postings that Commandments 6 to 10 are a pretty good basis for a moral compass (not stealing or killing seem like pretty good advice to me). Over the years I've read bits of the OT (KJV), and have enjoyed it as an allegorical story, plus the interest about how life was 2-3 thousand years ago.
I'm always just really depressed that there has been (and is) so much bloodshed in the name of religion. Not sure how to solve that one (so don't ask me to go to the Middle East).
Good luck with your search!
I have but found nothing but my wishful thinking. Still carry budishism with me and use this daily but I am not seeking nirvana.
good luck on your journey.
Nah, not read any of it. Boring, tbh. Same old same old, bin done on here countless times before.
Has Woppit turned up? I'm a bit worried about him, haven't seen much of his nonsense lately.
Elfinsafety - MemberWhat you wibbling on abahyt now, Nutt?
Can't make any sense of it Effin ?
Choosing a Faith is a bit like choosing a bike. Got to a shop, wander round, maybe even test ride a few.
Big brand? Niche brand? Full Custom? Off the peg or tailored to fit? Stick with stock components or 'upgrade' to suit personal tastes?
So yer Trek, Spesh, etc; they're like yer big religions; Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc. Then yer DeKerf, Merlin, etc; like Jainism, Zoroastrianism, stuff like that. Or you can have one made just for you; Agnosticism? Aetheism? Jones = some weirdo cult where people laugh at you a lot?
More than one bike = Pantheism?
Oh I dunno, something like that.
I'm too tired now I might go to bed early.
Has Woppit turned up
Ironically, he turned up, told us what we should or shouldn't believe, announced his departure, left. Then came back briefly only to leave again. However, some of us think he'll be back, perhaps at the end of the thread.
Oh I see:
What makes you think that life has a "meaning"? Life has no meaning. This is a good thing.
Bless him.
Must be awful, your life being 'meaningless'.
(Jew think that'll lure him out?)
[i]The surest cure for sea sickness is to sit under a tree[/i] - Spike Milligan
Suspecting that Mr. Nutt is trolling. Very disappointed as he has kicked off a very interesting thread. But postings on other threads and the infamous allotment thread make me think that this is an elaborate troll rather then a search for spirituality...
If I'm wrong, I apologise but previous form and all that...
Coyote, I give you my full assurance that I am not trolling, I don't expect apology, your opinions are undoubtedly justified, but this isn't a troll, I have picked up the Bible.
I am coming to terms with a Faith that I have always held but continually doubted and rebelled against, now I am trying to come to terms with Religion, to find the right Religion for me personally, if any.
This is very important to me, hence I have been honest, open and truthful throughout this thread. Trust me on this one.
hence I have been honest, open and truthful throughout this thread. Trust me on this one.
Yeah but in fairness, you haven't in the past, with yer sneaky trolling, which is why I've not taken this thread too seriously.
previous form and all that...
I'm going with that. Sorry, but I'm not convinced.
Mr Nutt, i am one in the minority on here as a fully signed up member of the God squad 😀 i to would encourage you to go on an alpha course and to have a look around at the churches in your area, any decent ones will welcome you and your questions however off the wall. We generally don't have rainbow jumpers/sandals with socks/tambourines and annoying cheesy grins all of the time even if our leg has just fallen off type of smile, you will get the 'odd folk' at church it just draws them but i have seen these people change and i know that it is God impacting their lives. *ducks down to avoid verbal volley's from stwer's* You are approaching this with an open mind well done for that. I approached it thinking there had to be more to life that what i had but also not believing in God, that was just over 8 yrs ago now and the journey continues through life's ups and downs. If you want to chat i am happy to just let me know 🙂
happy searching
[i]2. God is not there to be proved but found. seek and you will find.[/i]
Just as zero, one or many gods have made people without the capacity to see or hear, taste or walk, is it not quite plausible that people have also been made that are incapable of detecting these zero, one, or many gods, and thus will never be able to find, no matter how much they seek?
good point perhaps god forgot to make enough gullible fools 😉
IanMunro - Member
2. God is not there to be proved but found. seek and you will find.Just as zero, one or many gods have made people without the capacity to see or hear, taste or walk, is it not quite plausible that people have also been made that are incapable of detecting these zero, one, or many gods, and thus will never be able to find, no matter how much they seek?
ok, just so I know I've understood your question...
"is it possible that some people are created unable to find Faith or Religion"
I wish I could answer that Ian, I don't know why people are made without the capacity to see or hear, taste or walk anymore than I would know if they could find Faith or Religion. It is a personal journey.
I would suggest that they at least try to see if its for them, on their own terms, maybe even in the comfort of their own homes without hurting anybody else. 😉
Perhaps another question could be "Did God create strict atheists?" or "Does God care for those who don't believe in him?"
In answer to that I'd say that yes, I think that we are all ingredients in this "experiment",
I'd also say that once [u]you let yourself[/u] believe, it is then you see for yourself what you've been missing.
Thanks for the considered response MrNutt, and good luck on your journey.
its a pleasure, n' cheers 🙂
"is it possible that some people are created unable to find Faith or Religion"
There is a bit of that in the bible
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws him,and I will raise him up at the last day"
t
indeed there is, here's some further reading if your interested:
[url= http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/John316_637.html ]While John 3:16 Appears All-Inclusive,
Do John 6:37, 44, 65 Indicate a Restriction?[/url]
I'm not at a point where I could argue for or against Calvinism, I know that for many years of my life I could not consider nor could I bear the thought of having Faith at all, as I've said previously I have been the polar opposite of a good Christian.
I can't claim to received any sense of calling but I can categorically state that on the 20th 11th 2010 something changed, I knew that I could receive forgiveness for my immoral behavior and that my life was going to change, for the better, not immediately, certainly not fanatically, but for the better and forever.
No flash of light, no profound experience, just a realization, that is all, that is good and that is more than I had before. 🙂
If you need forgiveness, I'll do it.
Nutt - you are forgiven. I forgive you.
There you are, at least it's from something (ie: me) that demonstrably exists.
Now cheer up, forget about all this god b*llsh1t and enjoy your life.
What makes you think I need forgiveness from something who's existence needs to be demonstrated?
I don't. And its not about being unhappy, I was very happy half the time and not at all the other half.
Now I am actually enjoying my life and not because of my belief in gravity, sainsburys, petrol, the flying spaghetti monster, a haunted fish tank, the new lifecycles film (only shown in the north of england) or anything else, but just my Faith.
It works for me Woppit, you never know you may end up in this very same situation, hell three months ago I'd have laughed my arse off if you'd shown me this thread!
Strange life this one, not everything makes sense and sometimes the least expected can be the most profound. Just because its different and you don't understand it, doesn't make it wrong, maybe one day you will be walking in these very footsteps.
Just as predicted he has arisen again
Praise be - i cant spell hallelujah
CharlieMungus - MemberHas Woppit turned up
Ironically, he turned up, told us what we should or shouldn't believe, announced his departure, left. Then came back briefly only to leave again. However, some of us think he'll be back, perhaps at the end of the thread.
sorry, only read the last page, but this (^) - v good Charlie 😆
Mr Woppit & Junkyard, do you ever fear you may just be invoking the PaddedFred Obi Wan paradigm?
It was supposed to be the third day, but I'm a bit pushed for time.
As I understand it, Nutt is now saying that he wants to be forgiven by something that doesn't exist.
In which he has faith.
Ooooookaaaayyyyyyyy....
[i]"Oh look, he's so stupid because he doesn't think the same as I do"[/i]
Mr Woppit, if Ignorance was a bucket, it would be firmly wedged upon your head.
I know its dark in there.
Woppit needs threads like this. He needs something he can oppose, Religion being just one of the many, many things he is opposed to in his life. He needs to be seen as superior, above the common herd, special. It's not just about expressing his opinion; he has to prove that his opinion is the only one worth considering. He isn't actually interested in any debate or discussion at all.
Thing is, he might be able to achieve this, if he were to meet up for a pint with us sometime. Then, we could hail him as Our True Messiah, and give him the attention and adulation he so obviously craves.
Come on Woppit, tis the Season Of Goodwill To All Men and that.
X
MrNutt - Member"Oh look, he's so stupid because he doesn't think the same as I do"
Mr Woppit, if Ignorance was a bucket, it would be firmly wedged upon your head.
I know its dark in there.
Ooh. Abuse. I thought it was only vicious atheists like me who did that sort of thing. Allegedley.
Reviewing my posts, I see that nowhere did I accuse you of being stupid, so - fail on that one, Nutt old boy.
1: You've said you want to be forgiven.
2: You've said that you DON'T want to be forgiven by something that exists.
3: You say that you want to be forgiven because of your "faith".
I conclude that you want to be forgiven by something that does not exist, in which you have faith. If I'm wrong, please point out where.
PS: Having abandoned piety and then humour in favour of personal abuse, I'm interested to see where you go next.
Junkyard, just been having a rummage through your link to the million pound prize for proof of paranormal antics and the log of applicants is really quite astounding, some choice applicants:
ROSEMARY HUNTER - Paranormal Urination
TAMARA USMAN & BRENT HOWARD - Breast abnormality detection
ERIK BOSTROM, Canadian Malcontent
ELAINE McGUCKIN, Asteroid Prophet
Tyrone Shoelace, Fecal Magician
Tis a big old world out there...
feeble trolling sir, misquote me if you like, what I said was:
I knew that I could receive forgiveness for my immoral behavior and that my life was going to change, for the better, not immediately, certainly not fanatically, but for the better and forever.
now read it again, did anywhere in that statement I say that I want forgiveness?
what I also said was:
What makes you think I need forgiveness from something who's existence needs to be demonstrated?
Read that again, now I refer you back to the first quote:
I knew that I could receive forgiveness
This is something that has come about as part of my Faith, it was not something that I had expected, but its nice to know. But in order to know what that is like and what it means, you'd have to believe, and in order to believe you'd have to have an open mind, something which clearly you are demonstrating that you lack.
and whats more, where did I say this:
3: You say that you want to be forgiven because of your "faith".
Further my humorous comment referring to
was not abuse, simply an observation, please consider it as my gift to you, you wear it well. 😉 😀Ignorance as a bucket
think yourself lucky that I've refrained from deliberately setting out to insult you, unlike your good self who thought nothing of posting:
Now cheer up, forget about all this god b*llsh1t and enjoy your life.
Just how offensive do you think that comment is to people without the same void of faith as you?
Oh. So you DON'T want forgiveness.
What exactly do you want, then?
think yourself lucky that I've refrained from deliberately setting out to insult you
Ooh, threats now. Scared.