[Closed] Legal advice - dodgy flooring and CCJ

Apologies that I haven’t read the full post, but my first thought is CAB.
Have you considered contacting them?
Not something I have personal experience, but I’ve heard positive stories.

Get the refund for the flooring and let the £350 roll - life's too short to go through the hassle of chasing that.

And if you costed your time doing the chasing you'll spend a lot more than £350! 🙂

Have you had the floor moisture checked yet? you said you had a mate who lays liquid floors check it was level, he should have the device, I wouldn't start anything till that is checked.

and they basically pass any liability to the fitter.

You didn't have a fitter though, you had a joiner

Buy cheap buy twice covers this, I'm not rich but Id chalk the £300 loss down to one of those experiences.

If you'd picked up the Karndean and had it fitted by a trained fitter, they'd have taken the floor moisture levels first to check for excessive moisture and if there was, remedy it before fitting the floor and leaving you with a 30 year guarantee.

Get the refund for the flooring and let the £350 roll – life’s too short to go through the hassle of chasing that.

After reading what you have been through I'd tend to agree with that ^^^

Sounds a shit situation though.

I'd just go for it and put every penny you can think of in your claim, including your time.
Hit them with a big claim, you'll either get it or more likely it's a starting point for them to negotiate you down to what you actually want.
The costs of say a £1k claim aren't any different to a £2k claim, theres a couple of 'jumps' (£5k IIRC) but for a smallish one like yours just go for it

I've got to say I'm really impressed my your tenacity and so unimpressed by the other posters' let it slide comments. Just so predictable and downright wrong.

So many companies get away with producing shite as they know most people won't complain, they'll just suck it up and buy again.

If we keep accepting this then shit companies will prosper, good companies will fail and the environment will continue to get shagged. What percentage of the stuff we buy just gets binned and replaced because people CBA?

Here's someone who can BA and I wholeheartedly applaud him.

Wasn't it Campagnolo who nearly went bust a few decade ago because their products were so high quality that people had to replace them less often and so didn't buy as much and the company nearly folded as a result? Or was that an urban myth?

Or was that an urban myth?

Shimano came along and wiped the floor with him....

Back to the OP.

Whilst you might be 'right' suing through the courts won't necessarily get you any money. Even if you win you still have to get your money which can mean going back to court for an enforcement order then hiring bailiffs etc. A lot of hassle for bugger all.

If you’d picked up the Karndean and had it fitted by a trained fitter, they’d have taken the floor moisture levels first to check for excessive moisture and if there was, remedy it before fitting the floor and leaving you with a 30 year guarantee.

That's what we went to the shop for, they talked us out of it and said this stuff was the next best thing and didn't need a specialist to lay it.

I even offered them to re-supply Karndean and fit and and credit what we're asking and they refused. This is an issue of their doing, surely?

You didn’t have a fitter though, you had a joiner

Isn't a time served joiner with a BSC Hons in construction too not capable of laying a product labelled as 'for the DIY'er'?

Here’s someone who can BA and I wholeheartedly applaud him.

Thanks.

Hmmm. What sort of bins do they have?

As above chasing it is a loser except for the sheer vindictive embuggeration factor. I personally couldn't be arsed but if you can I say go for it. They'll at least be put through a tedious administration nightmare. For which you can take great pride.

Whilst you might be ‘right’ suing through the courts won’t necessarily get you any money. Even if you win you still have to get your money which can mean going back to court for an enforcement order then hiring bailiffs etc. A lot of hassle for bugger all.

I am aware of this, but i've credit checked them and they have no CCJ's. This is about principle and brinkmanship.

Ironically i read a google review and a guy had got them out to measure a carpet, arranged £300 price and left a key to fit the beige carpet when he was at work. When he came home they had fitted a blue carpet. When he rang the up he told them it was the fitters fault and to take it up with the fitter.

You are missing some steps before the CCJ!

1. Does the T&Cs of sale for that supplier have any formal dispute resolution process? I'm not sure if it will be mandatory, but often there will be something like mediation by the association of floor fitters or something! If it is mandatory and you haven't followed it - he'll have a basis to reject your claim.
2. Having tried to resolve it you need to issue a letter before action. That lays out the basis for your claim, and how much you want. Personally I'd include the refund for the flooring too, otherwise if he pays that it becomes confusing and he can say "but I've already paid what he asked". There are template LBAs online
3. Then you have to take it to court. I have in my head that you might have moved to Scotland? if so you can't use MCOL.
4. Then the court will issue the docs to him and he can pay (no CCJ involved), or defend.
5. If he defends, he'll presumably come armed with the "independent reports". He may or may not do that in a way that makes them admissable as evidence, but you'd probably need a lawyer to challenge it (which is not the intent of the small claims approach) unless the judge rejects it completely.
6. If he's switched on (or the judge is) you'll probably have an issue with any random stuff you print off the internet that backs up your version - its not expert evidence.
7. Even if the judge says the product was defective, I'm not certain you'll get paid for the skirting or installation. That may depend a lot of whether he believes you told them exactly the plan and what they said about fitting etc.
8. The judge will decide, and then if he decides in your favour they will have the option to pay within a month.
9. If they don't pay you get the CCJ registered, and then can ask a bailiff/debt collector or pursue it for you.

If you lose you'll have all the hassle and the court costs.
If you win you'll have all the hassle and might eventually get the money, but might have a long wait for it.

This is the reason that Amtico, and I think Karndean insist on their certified fitters installing it!

Personally? Issue the letter before action hoping that makes them pay up - if not cut your losses and forget about it. an expensive lesson in why not to go cheap

I would go after them as the what generalist says is true.

Also, I guess the only reason they talked you out of Karndean is they had no stock.

I had a new hardwood floor fitted by a specialist flooring company 3 years ago, they did an excellent job, got them to quote for another room this year, same flooring, different style, the cost for materials had doubled.

This is about principle and brinkmanship.

Beware - judges aren't huge fans of the small claims system (or indeed the courts) being used for points scoring.

All sounds a bit crap but personally I'm in the camp of take the money that's been offered and move on. Although you said you specifically mentioned it being for a conservatory have you actually got a record of that? I'd imagine there's a lot of ways they could get out of being fully liable (if they chose to offer a defence). Possibly a chance you could even lose the £300 refund offer (although not sure if you can accept that and then file a claim against the outstanding amount?, if you can I guess you may as well apply for a CCJ for the remainder).

This shop isn’t in West Yorkshire is it? I’m about the buy some flooring and want to give them a miss!!

This is about principle and brinkmanship.

Move on. Life's too short to bother with this sort of thing. It's not a life changing sum of money and I suspect the defendant doesn't give a toss about a CCJ, they're hardly life ending events.

There was some chap on here who'd dedicated his life to slagging off SuperStar bike components as they'd sold him a duff set of wheels and he'd sued them. He'd totally lost the plot, just consumed by rage over an untrue pair of cheap wheels.

I’ve got to say I’m really impressed my your tenacity and so unimpressed by the other posters’ let it slide comments. Just so predictable and downright wrong.

The OP is trying to claim for something that was not sold to him by the shop. The shop are refunding the cost of the flooring they supplied.

The chances of getting consequential losses back are very, very slim.

Some people thrive on a challenge though - so crack on!

It’s not a life changing sum of money

Might not be to you, it would be to me right now as my wife is stuck at home isolating and can’t earn any money on her zero hours contract.

FWIW, I once bought some unfinished engineered oak flooring and, on the recommendation of the shop, I sealed it myself with Osmo UV oil then, once dried, a coat of Osmo PolyX (hardwax) oil. The PolyX wouldn't dry (still tacky after a week) and quite surprisingly they shop admitted fault, resupplied the flooring and even organised a fitter to lay it for us (and he did a better job than the fitter of the first set.

Some 10 years later I still remain impressed at their response - no questioning of what I had done or denying they recommended that mix of sealants, they just accepted responsibility and sorted it without fuss. I wish there were more businesses like that.

The OP is trying to claim for something that was not sold to him by the shop. The shop are refunding the cost of the flooring they supplied.

More than that, they gave him incorrect advice on what to use. The product might be ok but if they have him wrong advice they may be liable for the costs that advice caused.

I sued Paisley freight for being a bunch of useless halfwits.
As per the OP, it was their intransigence which really got to me and pissed me off more than anything.
Sent invoice for costs sent reminder letter, sent second reminder, sent letter before action, filed claim online.
They finally got in touch the day before the hearing, backed down and paid up.
I expect that is what would happen if the OP did it.

How thick was the screed you laid?
It takes 24hours per every mm of depth for it to dry out properly, it very much sounds like the floor was laid way to early, trapping the moisture below.

This would have huge repercussions on natural or engineered wood, and it can't be good for the rigid lino stuff.

What brand is it?
When we do kitchen or bathroom projects we often fit Quickstep Livyn vinyl floors, sound the same as what you have laid and have never had any problems with it

More than that, they gave him incorrect advice on what to use. The product might be ok but if they have him wrong advice they may be liable for the costs that advice caused.

If he can demonstrate this in court, they may be liable. Do you have the advice in writing?

Without the RH reading taken at appropriate times, given you had just been setting screed, and the damage could be described as moisture related, how are you going to demonstrate that the subfloor was sufficiently dry at fitting? Given that you've used a separate fitter, this seems to me to be the minimum level of evidence you need before you can move on to suggest defective materials.

They've refunded the cost of the ruined flooring, is there anything to stop them counter-claiming for this plus other costs if you back them into a corner? Presumably this was a 'gesture of goodwill' rather than any admission of liability.

Have the skirts been destroyed? Why are they not available?

Thanks all, i was listening to LBC last night as I was walking my dog and they had a legal hour at 0pm, so rang in and spoke to a barrister.

Explained the case and he said they are liable for the installation and skirting boards.

Are you retired Op? Get out and ride your bike more.

How thick was the screed that was laid?

TBH you only have yourself to blame. You tried to do it on the cheap and your gamble didn't pay off.
Why didn't you use the shop's recommended fitters?

It's like Deja Vu all over again. How can we get the business owner on here?

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/legal-advice-please-cancelling-a-new-car-dispute/

OP did it start to warp when the temperature outside started to rise and conservatory warmed up due to more sunlight?

Have you any pics you can post? I work for a flooring manufacturer so can give you an opinion

Ah, the Ling's Cars OP; thought I recognised the user name.
My suggestion - attempt to negotiate a higher offer; if, as is likely, you are unsuccessful accept their previous offer - if still open.
The moral - buy cheap, buy twice.
Next time ask for a supplier-approved installer and be clear at the outset about liability.
Karndean and another product I cannot recall are specified by supermarkets for cafe floors - because they are proven products and installers are supplier-approved.

Karndean and another product I cannot recall

Amtico?

Thanks all, i was listening to LBC last night as I was walking my dog and they had a legal hour at 0pm, so rang in and spoke to a barrister.

Explained the case and he said they are liable for the installation and skirting boards.

Nice!

The reason why so many people get screwed over by bad service and bad products is down to the attitude of some of the posters on this thread “life’s too short, forget it, move on”. Why should he if he’s out of pocket through no fault of his own?
If he succeeds not only will he be put back to a position where he is not at a loss but hopefully future customers will get better advice.

OP did it start to warp when the temperature outside started to rise and conservatory warmed up due to more sunlight?

Exactly what happened. When I asked them for technical data sheet they couldn't show any of the standards that every other flooring manufacturers have on theirs.

I spoke to Karndeans technical people who told me themark which products they have are not suitable for conservatories. But I had to go through this whole ordeal to find that out.

Ah, the Ling’s Cars OP; thought I recognised the user name

I expected this to be mentioned much, much sooner than this 🤣

The moral – buy cheap, buy twice.
Next time ask for a supplier-approved installer and be clear at the outset about liability.

To be fair it's £45 a pack, we originally found asked for Karndean and was told stock was thin on the ground as we'd just come out of lockdown. We mentioned it was for a conservatory, they asked was the floor level and said it was for the DIY'er. Of they'd offered installation we'd have taken it because we had a nightmare finding an installer.

My opinion not a professional fitter but have had experience in flooring. Sheet vinyl target etc when glued down and welded trap ant moisture beneath due to obvious reasons, plank vinyl karndean etc is glued down but not sealed on the joints therefore moisture can evaporate through the joints, so technically moisture can escape, very slowly admittedly.
Personally if you we willing to pay the price for karndean then this is a principle issue more than a money issue, so being a principal kind of guy I’d say issue them with a letter stating your intentions, threaten to involved the local paper. But ultimately I kind of agree with some other opinions and put it down to lesson learned..

Explained the case and he said they are liable for the installation and skirting boards.

That legal advice is worth what you paid for it.

You have two issues. 1) You have to prove the flooring was faulty. 2) you have to prove the incidental losses are because of the faulty flooring

You have two issues. 1) You have to prove the flooring was faulty. 2) you have to prove the incidental losses are because of the faulty flooring

Agreed, however, the owner and the importer have both been out. If the owner didn't think there was an issue with the flooring i.e. it was fine then he wouldn't have sent the importer out after that to looks at it after he has.

Also, my issue is they have absolutely no technical evidence to prove the flooring has been tested to any standard whatsoever.

Looks at any flooring manufacturers website and most floors have undergone around 30 tests for wear, lightfastness, Chair leg test, fire resistance, swelling, moisture tolerance, UV etc etc to name a few.

They knocked up a word document and sent it then said that's all they had.

How can they blame the installation making the flooring warp when the floor hasn't attained any standards whatsoever??

Irrelevant

You have to prove that the flooring was faulty. Thats how it works. What evidence do you have the flooring was faulty?

Seriously - you will need to prove that there was a manufacturing fault with the flooring and its nothing to do with the installation.

then they have offerd you the money for the flooring.

Proving the skirtings are the flooring sellers fault not the installers is virtually impossible

Where is your expert report on the flooring?

How can they blame the installation making the flooring warp when the floor hasn’t attained any standards whatsoever??
Shouldn't you have established that first?

They have offered to refund the cost of flooring at £300.
You also refer to them offering to refund their profit of £104.
CCJs are used in claims where money is owed.
I think you would be hard pressed to prove they owe you money.
The burden of proof sits with you as the claimant; as you're looking to make this a legal matter don't be surprised if your claim is thrown out as you cannot prove that money is owed - it's just your opinion.
The retailer may decide that they're tired of you pushing the issue and say...OK, we withdraw any and all previous offers to resolve this; see you in court if that's what you want to do.
Think carefully; courts don't have much time for what they consider to be time wasting - and it's their view that counts - not yours.

What was the depth of the newly laid screed?

As much as it grinds, it sounds like they will blame your fitter, and thats hard to prove otherwise.

I'd take the refund, condense your first post into bullet points and post them a lovely review on google, and name them on this thread (STW is well ranked on google!)

As others have suggested, its not worth the anguish/time and how you will feel when inevitably they get one over on you. I reckon the only real chance you've got is they offer a gesture of goodwill to avoid the hassle of the CCJ but it doesn't sound like they will.

PS Tile it!

What Jim said. Floor was laid too early.