Forum menu
A Christmas Day board game took an unusual twist when the topic fictional characters popped up.
My sister in law had written down Jesus Christ.
Massive family argument ensues...
Can people point me to some balanced views either way?
Ooof
A fictional representation of a real person is perfectly common and doesn't necessarily call into question the existence of the individual on which that representation is based or intended to parody.
Good answer. I couldn't resist saying a VERY fictional representation but that wouldn't help
I think it shows a lack of common sense and social skills. Does she always put her foot in it like that?
I wonder what ever happened to that old Yamaha he had. 🤔
We had the same scenario years ago. Ours was with the names stuck to your forehead.
The person who wrote it believed he was fictional like father Christmas and the person with jesus on their head was a church going Catholic.
In my opinion, the evidence is there that he existed. The real question is did he do all the stuff mentioned in the bible?
I'm an ancient aliens fan so Ill leave it there. 🤣
On the balance of probabilities Jesus was a real person, born about 4BC and died about 33AD and was crucified.
He was Jewish scholar and religious leader, was tried by a Jewish council who turned him over the to the Romans for judgment.
There’s a lot less evidence to prove the accounts in the gospels, and they were mostly written 50 years or so after his Death, but had been changed continually since, partly because of translators own interpretations of older texts and often by people in power to suit their own ends. But they have never been ‘sold’ as being his words or ‘Gods’.
So, IMHO not Fictional. He’s a bit like Andy McNab (forgetting for a moment that’s not his real name) real person, but the Bible is probably about as accurate at Bravo Two Zero.
I’m an ancient aliens fan so Ill leave it there
At least there can at least be a debate about whether JC existed, so the Christians are one up already.
the Bible is probably about as accurate at Bravo Two Zero.
i quote like that as a quote.
Can people point me to some balanced views either way?
LMAO. Good luck with that.
I wonder what ever happened to that old Yamaha he had.
Superstar...until he hit that slick
Have a look at Richard Carrier on youtube. If anyone knows then he knows.
Probably a real person, just not all he's claimed to be.
God would be a fictional character though.
I suspect he was real but his achievements were massively inflated. Like many stories of olden days, they are based on a fact but the story is embellished.
Think there is a Jesus mentioned by a Roman historian (Josephus, History of the Jews?) written about 70AD, which ties in with one of the posts above. Both Jewish and Muslim texts refer to him as being a prophet of theirs, so it seems likely there was a real person upon whom the whole Bible thing got pinned.
If you want to wander down some blind alleys, I think he is mentioned in the Gnostic gospels, the ones the Catholic church decided not to include in the Bible, but you end up popping up in the Da Vinci Code 😄
they are based on a fact but the story is embellished.
Yes, for example the truth was a nice bloke turned up with some bread and fish and shared them around with a few people.
Given that there is no contemporaneous evidence for the existence of JC and as mentioned above the first mention is 35 years after his “death” I’d go with he’s a fictional character.
Can people point me to some balanced views either way?
Can't you just Google it for yourself?
50 years or so after his Death, but had been changed continually since, partly because of translators own interpretations of older texts and often by people in power to suit their own ends. But they have never been ‘sold’ as being his words or ‘Gods’.
I believe it’s closer to 30 years & that the texts have changed by a very small percentage since they were written. Luke’s gospel was specifically written to detail Jesus ministry through investigation of eyewitness reports
Yes, for example the truth was a nice bloke turned up with some bread and fish and shared them around with a few people.
Pity he didn't teach them to fish, they'd have been set up for life then.
I wonder what ever happened to that old Yamaha he had. 🤔
Nah, he rode a Street Triple with a loud exhaust.
There's nothing in the actual historic record from the time (which are extensive) indicating an actual person existed.
The whole shebang of christianity can be traced back to sun god worship. The vast majority of the really good bits (virgin birth, death, resurrection) can be found on hieroglyphs inside the pyramids of Egypt - so about 2500 years beforehand. (Which is why many previously devout christian egyptologists abandoned their faith).
If you're looking for "balance" you cannot get it when people's belief is bound up so tightly in it. - Remember: believing is a verb - something you do - which is "thinking something is one way, despite evidence to the contrary".
There's overwhelming evidence that all of the religions of the world are a crock of made up shit. Made up shit that make people feel good, maybe, but made up shit nonetheless. Not least christianity - the origins of which can be clearly traced back many more years before Zero AD than we are past it.
I'd personally feel secure in the knowledge that your family member is correct, that christianity is dying out in the civilized west (whilst the catholic church continues to forbid condom use in devote AIDS-riddled parts of Africa, resulting in untold suffering (including baby-rape)) and that we're beginning to emerge from this fog of violent, misogynist idiocy.
But you'll believe what you want either way. 🙂
Jesus was a real person, born about 4BC
Seems like he was ahead of himself.
Can people point me to some balanced views either way?
Jesus Christ the son of god is the figment of people's imagination. Wither someone called Jesus Christ actually lived at that time isn't relevant to anything.
Massive family argument ensues…
So you'd thought you'd share the love by starting one here lol
OP did you all manage to patch up your differences or were you all left with simmering resentment?
There’s nothing in the actual historic record from the time (which are extensive) indicating an actual person existed.
Really? Other than the Bible i thought there is little surviving today from that period. Do you have any references which are relevant to first century Jewish/Roman/other around Israel?
Jesus Christ fictional?
Doesn’t matter either way.
It’s the message that’s the important bit, not the messenger.
Oh he existed. He was crucified by the Romans. He was a dude, whatever you believe. Give me a a better role model, ever ?
@perchypanther
I'd agree with that if only christians would.
I don't think there's much in the teachings of Jesus that any reasonable person could disagree with. However, all the 'virgin birth', 'eating the (literal) body of christ', 'ascension into heaven', 'walking on water', 'feeding 5000 with a few fish', stuff means that it does matter. I believe in being kind to my fellow humans (except Crystal Palace supporters), resurrection, damnation for virtuous pagans, original sin, not so much.
@Loughan
There are extensive historical records for that period. some of them even mention Jesus - though probably not as many as you'd expect for someone who caused so much fuss. There's a good list here: https://reasonsforjesus.com/a-list-of-extra-biblical-sources-for-the-historical-jesus/of non-biblical mentions of Jesus
lol @ 'easily' link - "Ooops... Error 404
Sorry, but the page you are looking for doesn't exist."
... nope, nothing at all this time.
Well there we have it ladies and gentlemen - we finally have proof.
One more try:
https://reasonsforjesus.com/a-list-of-extra-biblical-sources-for-the-historical-jesus/
"First name?"- "Jesus."
"Surname?"- "Christ."
"Oh come on, really!"
"Nah just kidding, it's Josephson"
My understanding is that he's the son of Santa Claus so I guess it depends what your stance is on him.
I think it shows a lack of common sense and social skills. Does she always put her foot in it like that
Or she was bored of the game and pretty clever and knew what she was doing 😉 By throwing that in there and causing an argument its either going to bring the game to an end or provide some good entertainment so win win situation 😂
It’s the message that’s the important bit, not the messenger
I just love the irony in a carpenter meeting his end by way of wood and nails. If he was real then the bible does him a serious disservice. Turns what seems to be a top bloke in to a third rate super hero.
Was watching documentary on BBC a while back on Jesus Christ apparently there is no account of Jesus before age 30.
However, the speculation was that Jesus was in Afghanistan before that which is rather logical considering Roman empire stretch to near Afghanistan (Alexander the Great fought his last battle there?) so he could be on his "gap" year there, like any of young people today travelling to see the world.
Other speculation that they could not find his body after his crucifixion was because he was not dead and someone actually help him escape back to Afghanistan. Hence, there is a tomb in Afghanistan that the locals say is that of Jesus.
Therefore, Jesus was a real person according to the historians on the documentary.
Really? Other than the Bible i thought there is little surviving today from that period
The bible is not a historical record of the day. Most of it was written some time after what we know as the start of the new testament.
The bible is not a historical record of the day. Most of it was written some time after what we know as the start of the new testament.
Indeed.
Whatever evidence may or may not have survived today, the bible is not it. It is, at best, based on decades- or even centuries-old Chinese whispers. Had Jesus actually existed, he was already a myth / legend by the time anyone got around to picking up a quill. And that's before we consider that it was written in a language which requires interpretation rather than direct translation.
It's certainly plausible that Jesus existed, but his escapades and the whole "son of god" schtick not so much. For instance, it's not hard to see how the feeding of the five thousand came about by word of mouth over a century of embellishment passing on the story of a nice bloke who shared a packed lunch with his mates one afternoon. And of course, once something like that gains traction it's natural to allocate "Jesus did it" to good deeds etc done by others or even made up entirely.
It's much more recent history and we're still not really sure if Robin Hood existed. I highly doubt that anyone can really say with any certainty whether JC did or didn't.
I wish I had have read this thread before I dedicated my life to studying ancient manuscripts at the feet of professors (all at mainstream, world-renowned universities; NOT some wacky "Bible colleges") who themselves had studied at the feet of professors before them - all of whom have been subject to the review process by scholars in corresponding fields who are not themselves Christian, or even necessarily people of faith, but none of whom across centuries of scholarship have managed to distil the existence of Jesus down to the admirably simple formulae conjured up by the good folk of STW.
If only I - and all of them - had have had access to internet fora and social media years ago, we could have saved ourselves so much time.
Thanks, though. Better late than never.
SaxonRider, PhD, LicDD, FRHistS