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Unlikely!
You have to deal with the world as it is, not with how you’d like it to be.
Until you grasp that simple fact, you’re never going to get into power
This sums it up to me. I'm not a natural socialist, although I'll vote for them to try and reduce the local Tory MPs majority. I'm not interested in any idealogical purity, I wanted an electable alternative to Boris and Brexit, and/or that would have created a fairer and more equitable society and the only party that could have done that completely failed. Twice.
And now I'm watching you all squabble on here and I understand why. Those Red Wall voters may not have swung to the Tories if Labour had stopped it's internal faction fighting and come up with a coherent policy to explain who's fault it was that those communities were suffering, and how a Labour government would help them support them, and that needed to start with coherent, practical messages that would have got through despite the right wing media.
Like it or not, Boris united the Tories by ousting or silencing the Eurosceptics and convincing the electorate that he could "get the job done". I'm not sure the voters cared what that job was, provided it wasn't the chaotic presentation of the Labour party policies that was put forward so poorly.
If Labour doesn't unite behind Starmer - even if it means the Corbynites leave - and stop providing squabbles for the media to focus on, it hasn't got a hope of winning the next election. Sort yourselves out, hold your noses where necessary and pull together to create a party that will appeal to enough people to get the Tory bastards out.
hold your noses where necessary and pull together
How do you pull together with people who call you a racist? Because that's what they're doing.
If you don’t want to be called a racist, don’t be a racist
It’s not difficult
How’s that alternative reality working out for you Daz? The one where there hasn’t actually been an independent report published today with all the evidence against Corbyn of antisemitism?
Just because you don’t agree with it you can’t just pretend it never happened.
Your attitude seems pretty typical of the rest of the cult members. I don’t want to believe that about Jeremy, therefore it’s all lies and none of this actually happened
It’s ridiculous!
Apparently,
Mr Starmer added that those who reject the report’s findings, or who think the issue is exaggerated or a factional attack were “part of the problem too”. They too “should be nowhere near the Labour party either”.
Well that’s a fair number of people on here it would seem, myself included.
Just received an email from the local party sec stating '...with a heavy heart and after much soul searching, I'm standing down and resigning from the party...'
It's clear where his loyalties lie.
Wow. Thought I'd drop in on this thread to observe the doublethink required of the cult of St Jeremy. And it still managed to surprise me.
'Bout time Jezza ****ed off for good and took his unelectable shambles with him.
Have you read the report binbins?
With any luck the flood of people leaving the party and the withdrawal of union funding will send it into bankruptcy.
Bet it doesn't, bet they don't.
Corbyn walked in to a trap that had a big sign above it that said 'it's a trap!', just as he did repeatedly in the past. I'm a Labour voter that doesn't really pin myself to any leader but Corbyns lack of political nous is what finished him for me.
Lots of evidence of him handling AS badly but not of being AS.
With any luck the flood of people leaving the party and the withdrawal of union funding will send it into bankruptcy.
If you look at all the Corbynite blather on social media, apparently they’re going to split and form another party dedicated to pure socialism, with the bearded messiah at the helm
However, it’s worth bearing in mind that they’ve been saying that since 1971, including them definitely, definitely, definitely going to do it during the Blair years
Absolutely no doubt that a lot of this was a put-up job by the Tories in league with some of their prominent/rich Jewish supporters.
WOW! You are actualy an anti-semite, try and find any member of the "cult of St Jeremy" saying something simiar on these threads- you wont.
Honestly some of the comments from the corbynistas are amazing.
he presided over a party that did a crap load of things wrong and interfered with allegations of anti semitism.
The report is pretty clear and how could they possibly think that what he did was OK. I am not accusing him of being racist but his naivety is astonishing.
as for the back biting lot, what do you actually want a party that actually means something or a bunch of squabbling children who accept racism.
It's astonishing
he presided over a party that did a crap load of things wrong and interfered with allegations of anti semitism.
The report is pretty clear and how could they possibly think that what he did was OK. I am not accusing him of being racist but his naivety is astonishing.
I also don't think he personally was racist/anti-semitic but he certainly didn't deal with that issue, or many others, at all well. And that's the impression that was sent out and made all the Red Wall Brexiteers opt for a Tory brexit rather than a Labour one
WOW! You are actualy an anti-semite, try and find any member of the “cult of St Jeremy” saying something simiar on these threads- you wont.
Nope. I am saying that some inevitable dovetailing of interests occurred as the Tories were desperate to pin an 'ism' on Labour and so many of the jewish voices stirring the pot were Tory supporting ones. The politics came first in much of this.
It is not anti-semitic to point out a link that was reported at the time and was, to a certain extent, giving Grandpa the rope to hang himself with. And he happily obliged.
Still, you keep on putting up the straw men and knocking them down if that is what gets you off.
Dig that hole Dan! Binbins are you going to call out this blatant AS?
Dig that hole Dan! Binbins are you going to call out this blatant AS?
Ha ha ha. How long have you been waiting for a crack at this?
Silly, silly little person.
Absolutely no doubt that a lot of this was a put-up job by the Tories in league with some of their prominent/rich Jewish supporters./rich Jewish supporters.
Either you don’t know that you’re an anti semite, or you don’t care that you are. I suspect the latter
Also, reported
? The one where there hasn’t actually been an independent report published today with all the evidence against Corbyn of antisemitism?
I dont suppose you will provide that evidence will you? Please quote the exact page(s) where it states he was antisemitic.
Either you don’t know that you’re an anti semite, or you don’t care that you are. I suspect the latter
I don't have to worry about it, because I'm not.
If you can't see the dovetailing of interests here, you are indulging in doublethink.
And that is not a dovetailing of interests because of religion. It is a dovetailing of interests that are 90% political and just happen to have a religious element.
Also, reported
On what grounds?
With any luck the flood of people leaving the party and the withdrawal of union funding will send it into bankruptcy.
And there in one sentence is the mindset of the loony left, no wonder the Corbyn cult failed.
Ha ha ha. How long have you been waiting for a crack at this?
Silly, silly little person
How long have I been waiting for you to say something AS? WTF are you on about?
I'm silly, you're stupid. What you said is classic anti-Semitism & you can't see it!
I don’t have to worry about it, because I’m not.
Right. Perhaps, then, you should reflect on your earlier remarks.
Ha ha ha. How long have you been waiting for a crack at this?
Silly, silly little person
How long have I been waiting for you to say something AS? WTF are you on about?
I’m silly, you’re stupid. What you said is classic anti-Semitism & you can’t see it!
dannyh you appear to have captured in that one post, what all of this has been about.
Edit: sorry, that’s not clear. I mean the first of these posts of yours.
And there in one sentence is the mindset of the loony left
Hardly, I’m not even a socialist. I’d definitely describe myself as left wing, but not in the narrow and outdated definition of old school socialists.
The point is that the Labour Party was founded to represent the interests of working people and redress the balance of power between capital and workers. Today it does neither, it simply exists to win a political game, a bit like a football match, and anyone who challenges that is smeared and bullied as racists, cranks, extremists or nutters.
The Labour Party doesn’t challenge power, it just wants it for itself. No different to the tories, and the cause of everything that’s f***** up in this world. Nothing will ever change until we recognise this simple fact.
I don't see why it's controversial to suggest that as well as genuine failings and problems with anti-semitism under Corbyn there was cynical weaponising of the issue by right-wing Labour and the Tories. I know this is the internet but both things can be true.
Are we at the point now where it's anti semitic to wonder why one third of the current shadow cabinet is a member of Labour Friends of Israel - 'a Westminster based lobby group working within the British Labour Party to promote the State of Israel'. The same Israel that's accused of mass human rights violations.
It’s controversial if you equate right-wing Labour and the Tories with “the Jews”
I don’t see why it’s controversial to suggest that as well as genuine failings and problems with anti semitism under Corbyn there was cynical weaponising of the issue by right-wing Labour and the Tories. I know this is the internet but both things can be true.
It's not. But to suggest that it's a Jewish conspiracy, as dannyh did, is an anti-Semitic trope.
He actually called them rich Jews.
I don't think it's a Jewish conspiracy. I think most of the people pushing it weren't Jewish.
I do think there is a well funded and concerted effort by Israel to paint any and all criticism of the Israeli state and it's actions as anti-semitic though. It's difficult because some of it is, but not by any means all. That's not the same as believing in an over arching Jewish conspiracy.
Edit: I'd only seen this bit
I am saying that some inevitable dovetailing of interests occurred as the Tories were desperate to pin an ‘ism’ on Labour and so many of the jewish voices stirring the pot were Tory supporting ones. The politics came first in much of this
I do think anyone supporting a party headed by Boris Johnson that's responsible for the appaling treatment of windrush immigrants etc calling out anyone for racism is a bit rich really.
I don't understand why the Tories get a free pass on their racism/islamophobia.
I'm going to try to enunciate this clearly and once and for all. Two reasons for this. Firstly this is the Jezza thread, so people looking for hidden meaning, straw manning and general looniness is a given. Second because I am going to bed.
Do I believe Corbyn foolishly trod a line too close to racial prejudice (and probably over that line) on his own part and by his inaction with other members of his party? Answer = yes. To my mind he was politically clueless when presented with the post-truth 'asymmetric warfare' practised by the populist right. But he also did not get on top of antisemitism he tacitly legitimised.
Do I believe that the average (i.e. most politically neutral) Jewish citizen of the UK was offended/concerned by Labour's problem with antisemitism? Answer = yes.
Logically, therefore, there was/is a problem in the Labour Party with antisemitism.
Do I believe that the most vocal jewish critics of the Labour party would be more likely to be those who already supported the Tories? Answer = yes.
There will have been jewish Labour supporters who will have bitten their lip, there will be some that took a stand and their relationships will have suffered as a result. No doubt there will have been some name calling along the Uncle Tom lines etc. But this is all because there really was an underlying problem. Real, not imagined.
But much of the running, the endless reheating of the story, the strangely well-timed (politically) emergence of new details will have occurred due to political machinations. And Corbyn blundered headlong into these.
The 'put-up job' I talked about was not that the entire thing is a conspiracy of some kind of fantasy Jewish-billionaire cartel. The problem exists and has been gifted to Labour's opponents by Labour themselves. But the way it has been played out has largely been driven by political actors on the Tory side.
I hope that is clear. Looking back 'put-up job' wasn't a clever thing to call it. Unfortunately 'genuine problem played expertly by opponents with political considerations in mind' isn't quite as snappy.
Are we at the point now where it’s anti semitic to wonder why one third of the current shadow cabinet is a member of Labour Friends of Israel – ‘a Westminster based lobby group working within the British Labour Party to promote the State of Israel’. The same Israel that’s accused of mass human rights violations
You do realise that most of the world is accused of mass human rights violations - in particular most of the Arab world.
Is your problem just when the Jews do it? You’d have to embargo most of the planet and only trade with Sweden and Norway if you actually cared about it with equal measure.
It’s not. But to suggest that it’s a Jewish conspiracy, as dannyh did, is an anti-Semitic trope.
I didn't say that. Reference above my regret about the phrase 'put-up job'.
It is the weaponising of the issue that is the political bit.
No I'd find it very weird if there was a Labour Friends of Saudi Arabia group that lots of the shadow cabinet were signed up to as well. Is there?
Personally I don't see it as appropriate for politicians to be part of a group that lobbies for the interests of any country other than the UK. Can someone explain to me why it is?
I'd happily see us sever ties with Saudi Arabia, and sod the economic consequences. If we can wreck the economy for Brexit surely we can do it for worthwhile reasons too.
He actually called them rich Jews.
You don't get listened to by the Tories unless you are rich/prominent. It is sort of a defining thing.
Again, my wording was clumsy.
I didn’t say that.
I believe that you did. Others can read your post and draw their own conclusions. As far as I'm concerned, it was explicitly anti-Semitic.
I don’t understand why the Tories get a free pass on their racism/islamophobia
Because the media is full of the 'other lot' having a problem with their phobia. Which is the point.
I believe that you did.
Well, that ain't ever going to change, so I'll have to give up on that one.
Others can read your post and draw their own conclusions.
Hope so. At worst they should conclude that a hastily written short post on a controversial issue might not be wise.
Plenty of labour types willing to sell arms to other dodgey regimes as well grum.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2007/may/21/foreignpolicy.uk
But again, it’s only a problem when Jews go a bit genocidey.
It’s just a case of pick your poison and side with its cause. Personally I don’t GAF - humans doing human things....what’s new....but people who claim they aren’t anti-Semitic whilst banging on about the Jews are suspect to me.
I don’t understand why the Tories get a free pass on their racism/islamophobia.
Because the tories are openly racist. Maybe that’s where labour are going wrong? (Irony there BTW, I don’t actually believe that for the benefit of the trolls on here)
Just saw Angela Rayner on newsnight doing a rather amazing St Peter act of denying her previous idol. I vividly remember her singing his praises back in December on a stage in Manchester. This is how low some in labour have descended. She wouldn’t even say she didn’t think he was an anti-Semite. The tories must be pissing themselves.
Hope so. At worst they should conclude that a hastily written short post on a controversial issue might not be wise.
For reference, you said:
Absolutely no doubt that a lot of this was a put-up job by the Tories in league with some of their prominent/rich Jewish supporters.
Were you intending to play Jewish trope bingo?
But again, it’s only a problem when Jews go a bit genocidey.
This is a complete straw man. I have been against UK weapons exports to dodgy human rights abusing countries for years,as have many 'lefty' types I know, regardless of which hue of government was doing it. You'll be able to find examples on this very forum dating back years, most of it not relating to Israel. Very easy to throw these accusations around though isn't it...
She wouldn’t even say she didn’t think he was an anti-Semite.
I saw the interview and she clearly stated that she didn't think Corbyn is anti-Semitic.
Awesome.
Well we can forget Brexit then, we’ll have to strap giant warp drives to Britain and exit earth because apart from a select few European democracies - most of the planet is suspect in terms of human rights abuses.