Jeremy Corbyn

The problem there is the, to be polite, relaxed approach to accuracy becomes normalised.

This - some people may not use naughty words, but their influence is far more pernicious. We see it on the forum; we see it on the side of buses; we see it in the Oval Office.

I guess you didn't really think that through? Or look at the graph?
How are you realistically going to find an extra 8bn in taxation year on year every year for 10, 20, 30 years?

Yep, thought it through.
Nope, didn't look at the graph due to who posted it.

Ageing population has grown a lot over last 30 years without the adjusted levels of spending. It now needs a massive injection to bring it back to what it should have been but will slow after that. I don't expect the same growth over the next 30 years as we won't see increase in life expectancy so it should level out (oldest die, new over 60's replace them)

In the case of our resident purveyor of alternative facts, you're not really providing a valuable public service in correcting them - you're just providing the attention that will prompt him to keep coming back.

I'm not gonna link to the blacklist extension again, but in the mysterious absence of a well-deserved ban, I highly recommend using it.

It's so frustrating, because you want to correct an "alternative fact" and call out the alternativer, because lies do have momentum and they do cause damage... But as you say that gives them attention and basically repeats the "fact". It's like the brexit bus, every time you pointed out that it was a lie, it got it more attention and somehow reinforced it. The liars no doubt think this makes them geniuses as well as liars.

Hah. We should have got another bus and written "everyone knows this is pure shite" with a big arrow, and followed the brexit bus around with it

Perhaps you should all just agree on a process, every time an alternative fact* is posted, just reply by quoting it followed with 'This is a Lie' **

If you don't deviate from the process then it doesn't legitimise the attention seeking and you've highlighted to any other reader that it's not true. 🙂

I guess there's a chance it could be used against you though and get things that are true labelled as not 🙁

* I really don't like that term, it's not a fact at all.

** If it's incorrect and the poster know it then it's a lie, if the poster doesn't know it then replace with 'This is not true'

Just out of interest, how long do you propose the NHS should keep on getting that rate of spending growth for? And what other services are you willing to sacrifice to achieve it?

I don't think that NHS spending is keeping pace with inflation or population growth. If so, that's a cut in reality.

Jam isn't deliberately lying though. He just has a very strong pro Tory filter. We all have filters.

That's why it needs talking about.

because you want to correct an "alternative fact"

But you're stuck in the mindset that the 'alternative fact' in incorrect - its just another fact, presented just as selectively as the ones you prefer.

Glass is half full/Glass is half empty - both are equally valid facts, neither is a 'lie. its just that one doesn't suit your argument.

350 million was the perfect example - Everyone's spent a year and a bit screaming that it was a lie - no it wasn't, it was an officially published government figure. all the screaming about it just undermined the remain argument as being just as dishonest and selective in their representation of 'facts' as the other side.

We all have filters.

Precisely

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/138990531696/the-thinking-filters

Jam isn't deliberately lying though

That's almost as bad, and I wasn't specifically talking about any one poster.

But you're stuck in the mindset that the 'alternative fact' in incorrect - its just another fact, presented just as selectively as the ones you prefer.

Not at all, if it is [i]factually [/i]correct, it is true, no matter who posted it. If it is factually incorrect, then it's not a fact at all.

Glass is half full/Glass is half empty - both are equally valid facts, neither is a 'lie. its just that one doesn't suit your argument.

No, that's an opinion or interpretation of the fact, the fact itself is that the glass has half its available volume occupied by water.

How you choose to view that, positive/negative whatever, is up to you and for you to freely present your reasoning as to why that makes you happy or sad.

But you can't come on here and claim that the glass is in fact 3/4 full and so therefore everyone should be happy, or vice versa, that since you are happy it must be more than half full.

But you're stuck in the mindset that the 'alternative fact' in incorrect - its just another fact, presented just as selectively as the ones you prefer.

350 million was the perfect example -

350 million was the perfect example - Everyone's spent a year and a bit screaming that it was a lie - no it wasn't,

ah, [i]implication[/i]

right...

but you can't come on here and claim that the glass is in fact 3/4 full.

And however full it is, I know damn sure it will be more full under a Tory government - another 'fact'. Hold on and I will dig out the graphs that prove it.

ninfan - Member
ah, implication

right...

[b]then decided to derail any discussion with with endless word games designed to avoid the issues.[/b]

The prosecution rests m'lud

[quote=ninfan ]
But you're stuck in the mindset that the 'alternative fact' in incorrect - its just another fact, presented just as selectively as the ones you prefer.

[img] [/img]

My mum (a maternity nurse for 30+ years) is still certain that the NHS will be getting its extra money

[img] [/img]

So Sun readers were a bit more split than other Tory newspapers and lots didn't vote anyway, so their influence is fairly minimal.

Not so split on the EU referendum, where their usefulness was maximal:

Data from the British Election Study found that some 70 per cent of Sun and Daily Express readers voted Leave in the referendum, followed by 66 per cent of Daily Mail readers, 55 per cent of Daily Telegraph readers and 44 per cent of Daily Mirror readers.

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/study-readers-of-the-sun-express-and-daily-mail-strongly-favoured-brexit-in-eu-referendum/

*edit. And now the damage is done, former Sun editor turned-columnist expressed 'regrets': http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/kelvin-mackenzie-regrets-voting-for-brexit-he-reveals-to-sun-column-readers_uk_57710658e4b0d2571149fb53

You couldn't make this stuff up. Well you could. And then make a [s]good living[/s] load of filthy lucre as a tabloid editor/journo...

Everyone's spent a year and a bit screaming that it was a lie - no it wasn't

It was misinformation. You understand what that means, don't you?

Jam isn't deliberately lying though.

Really? I think he is.

If he isn't, then I think he must have a serious psychological problem that prevents him from understanding what truth is, coupled with a very bad memory that prevents him from remembering that he posted something recently and that it was corrected.

Occam's razor and all that.

I'm not sure he [i]knows[/i] he's doing it but I'm damn sure he's doing it

ah, implication

right...

It is like the argument Bill O'Reilly's lawyer put forward while defending him. Fox had paid out millions of dollars to victims of sexual harassment t of O'Reilly in out of court settlement. So O'Reilly is innocent of all charges.

When asked he just said OReilly had not been found guilty of anything, so why the payments, round and round.

Just makes me wonder how these people are wired up.

With the NHS though it isn't just more funding, they need to have medical professionals and people that actually understand the issues in management roles and as the Minister in charge of the NHS

How can a man so universally hated and derided as Jeremy Hunt by the NHS been in charge of public health, i can't think of a single member of the NHS that actually thinks he has done a good job, they have no respect or belief in him at all.

It is not just funding, some of the targets set are ridiculous and cost money and time, my wife is a Lead Radiotherapist in a large hospital's cancer department. it is my understanding from listening to her after her numerous "bang your head against a brick wall" moans about work, that some cancers are non-aggressive, so they can schedule treatments quite far apart, but this may not conform to the Government targets, so they are often treating non-essential patients when they don't need to be treated in what were the normal clinic times of monday - friday 8-6, but they have patients that it is essential they be treated asap, such as cord compression's etc, so often they are now having to work outside of those hours and being called in at weekends.

They used to be able to schedule these essential cases in during normal clinic hours normally apart from very minimal skeleton staff. But she is now having to work every third weekend on rota and be on-call for another weekend, and as we live in a rural area with no mobile reception, she has to sit at home and wait.

So the departments wage budget is up something like 42% for overtime since the targets were introduced, she often works 10-15 hours unpaid a week, yet hasn't seen a pay rise for the last 4 years, not even in line with inflation?

That's not just a need for further funding, that's actually having a minister in charge who has a clue and isn't a bell-end

I think he must have a serious psychological problem that prevents him from understanding what truth is

The same disorder we all suffer from. That's why there are so many bitter rows on the internwt.

We all have to make an effort to overcome our natural biases. Acrimony doesn't help this process.

We all have to make an effort to overcome our natural biases

Indeed. But some don't even try.

This was sent from Tory HQ to a local campaign.
Just unbelievable!
[img] [/img]

From here:
https://t.co/NKj8rOYmw9

Doesn't jambaya claim to live on mainland Europe someplace? If so, why is he paying VAT in the UK?

Farron's just resigned.

I genuinely liked the bloke.
Honest, came over well.

Not his fault, imo, the LD's were just not relevant to this election.
In more normal circumstances I think he'd have been very successful.

"In a statement, he said he was "torn between living as a faithful Christian and serving as a political leader"."

He'd have got on well with the DUP. [sorry, forgot joking smiley 😀 ]

The same disorder we all suffer from

What i have said is he wants to have opinions on facts and he wants to be able to ignore facts when they are presented that disprove his opinion.
if you do this then you will make a name for yourself and get special attention. Some of that will be OTT but his posts are often factually incorrect and ,of late, it seems wilfully so

A shame about Farron, he seemed a genuinely principled guy even if some of his principles are alien to me, and he obviously struggled with reconciling that to the job. But in the end, his reasons for quitting are exactly the reasons people expressed for doubting him

Wish I has said that.... i always word it more confrontationally than your measured tones

The forum might have picked up on that

That's because I'm a really great guy, and you're a ****.

(bloody winkyface just so I don't get banned again for abusing forum members)

true so i reported the post anyway 😛

****

Jamba is blindly loyal to his team. Wont say anything against them.

ctk - Member
Jamba is blindly loyal to his team. Wont say anything against them.

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO #

What has the Israeli Government got to do with a thread on JC?

[quote=ninfan ]350 million was the perfect example - Everyone's spent a year and a bit screaming that it was a lie - no it wasn't

I'm going to have to fact check you there. The context of 350 million was the sentence on the side of the bus "We send the EU £350 million a week" which however you want to try and spin it is a lie.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £17 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day. The rebate is applied straight away, so the UK never contributes this much.....

The claim that the UK’s membership fee is £55 million a day comes from the £20 billion annual UK payment to EU institutions listed in the Office for National Statistics' (ONS) Pink Book.

The ONS told us this isn’t the correct figure to use. It has another set of figures which actually represent official government payments, although this isn’t clear from the release.

The £20 billion figure includes payments to EU institutions by UK households, and so doesn’t represent what the government pays as a ‘membership fee’.

The Treasury has more up-to-date estimates than the ONS, and uses slightly different accounting methods. They show that the UK government paid in £13.1 billion in 2016.

its not an accurate figure we literally do not send that [and the figure above ignores the £4 billion we get back]and we all know it, therefore it is a lie.

Do you deny that the pink book, section 9.9, titled " UK official transactions with institutions of the EU" lists the figure 19.1 billion as the annual total debit?

So, just accept you are wrong, it is directly and officially recorded as a debit transaction.

So, just accept you are wrong, it is directly and officially recorded as a debit transaction.

Junkyard
The claim that the UK’s membership fee is £55 million a day comes from the £20 billion annual UK payment to EU institutions listed in the Office for National Statistics' (ONS) Pink Book.

ninfan -
Do you deny that the pink book, section 9.9, titled " UK official transactions with institutions of the EU" lists the figure 19.1 billion as the annual total debit?

JY stated that the pink book contained that very figure, which we know from the ONS is wrong.

Do you deny that the ONS said it was wrong?

The same disorder we all suffer from