Photos and video released of the BUK launcher allegedly in the area the missile was fired from.
Along with photo's of the BUK launcher when it was allegedly seized from the Ukranian base that was taken, and an interfax press release from June 30th where Ukranian officials confirmed a BUK launcher was at the base, but claimed it was 'not operational' (no definition of that, so it could easily have been engine/mechanical issues)
http://interfax.co.uk/newsinf.asp?y=2013&m=9&d=23&pg=4&id=517080
Photos and video of what could be the BUK launcher on the back of a low loader being hastily moved back to Russia.
Well, there are numerous photo's of one moving round on a civilian truck, seemingly both before and after the shootdown, we have no confirmation of where the video was taken, other than a claim that it was near the Russian border.
Blocking of anyone trying to get to the wreckage and bodies.
One minute they've being criticised for not securing the area, the next criticised for not letting people near it - it seems that the Malaysian investigation team are still sitting in Kiev, waiting for the Ukranian govt. to give them clearance to go to the area.
Black boxes removed and location unknown.
Apparently in Donetsk, where the separatist administration have said they are waiting to give them to international investigators, but haven't met them yet (One can imagine a significant level of to and fro with the Ukranian government saying they have to go through them as they are the legitimate government for the area, and the rebels saying no they are not, and the international teams must approach them directly, the sort of endless round in circles officious posturing by both sides that marks the whole region)
Looting of wreckage.
That would never happen here, would it? Although record shows us there were several arrests for looting after Lockerbie.
Bodies being left, some being moved to a railway carriage.
Just how quickly can you gear up a recovery operation for that many bodies? let alone in what is effectively a war zone. What facilities would you expect to have in place to receive that many bodies ? IIRC in lockerbie they used the local ice rink as a temporary morgue, in the middle of nowhere rural Ukraine, a refrigerated train doesn't seem an unreasonable solution.
The vice video (and I cant stress enough how good the vice dispatches have been regards this whole conflict) seems to show local people acting with a fair bit of compassion and respect, in tragic and difficult circumstances
Some wreckage being moved, ruining any investigation.
As I understand it, they've been moving wreckage to look for bodies. Again we need to look at this in the light of being a war zone, if you watch the Vice video's you'll see some desperate stories of civilians being killed by Ukranian artillery (and no doubt rebels the too) - there's a lot of tragedy in that part of the world at the moment.
UN voting today on what to do.
Would be good if they forced a ceasefire between the Ukranians and Rebels, for the good of everyone in the region.
There should be a system already in place for a plane crash or similar even in a war zone or disaster zone. The UN should already be there and have the site secured and an investigation underway, not only as it involves an incident involving victims from UN members over a UN country that is not able to deal with it themselves due to war but as the people responsible are also members of the UN.]
Agreed, but what country wants to put their troops or investigators in the middle of a war zone?
You can imagine that on the whole the people who live in the area are trying to do what they can and do so respectfully (that certainly shows in the videos and photos) but it's the actions of the people that are responsible that are the concern (looting, destroying evidence, etc)
Yes it is a daunting task to sort out what to do with bodies and wreckage. I was surprised to see they did have the railway carriage already.
It all seems like the initial knee-jerk reaction was "f***, we've really screwed up here. How can be hide it/shift the blame etc etc....but they've not got any escape and now it's all down to damage limitation to protect the evidence that can be protected and found.
It is all too easy for them to now claim they were protecting evidence by removing it. Some may be true, other complete BS.
It's horrible thing to happen 🙁
Bloke I work with who has a Russian girlfriend is convinced that the Ukranian forces shot the plane down as they were after Putin who was allegedly flying in a plane near by. He also says that the pro russian guys are being massacred and women and children in the area are being rounded up and shot. No idea if this is true but I guess it is what his girlfriend is being told from the homeland.
All the Russian press are singing from the same hymn sheet. It was them there Ukranians in Kiev wot dun it guv! And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the bare-chested crocodile wrestler
I'm sure this universal point of view has nothing at all to do with the amount of Russian journalists who've met with unfortunate accidents when contradicting the line from the Kremlin in recent years
Bloke I work with who has a Russian girlfriend is convinced that the Ukranian forces shot the plane down as they were after Putin who was allegedly flying in a plane near by. He also says that the pro russian guys are being massacred and women and children in the area are being rounded up and shot. No idea if this is true but I guess it is what his girlfriend is being told from the homeland.
@Pigface thanks for sharing but that's the propaganda machine in full flow. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Putin would be flying over that warzone and as for the women and children that's pure diversion story.
How about the Sky journalist rummaging through someone's luggage ?
He also says that the pro russian guys are being massacred and women and children in the area are being rounded up and shot. No idea if this is true but I guess it is what his girlfriend is being told from the homeland.
Don't know about round up and shot, but it certainly seems that the Ukranian forces have been bombing civilian areas heavily
(again, can't recommend the Vice news dispatches enough, some strong stuff in this one:)
Is the Russian media still state controlled?
And if so, what's internet access like?
Just wondering how easy it is to get hold of news from outside the Motherland.
(apologies - I grew up in the '80s and '90s, and Russian stereotypes are still in full effect)
Is Russian media state controlled? Most of the TV channels are run by the government, and follow the official Kremlin line, but there are a couple of independents which seem to have a really hard time (TVRain?).
The Internet is currently largely uncensored, Facebook, BBC and Twitter are all available, but your average Russian wont understand English so wont be interested in the western viewpoint. Same as we dont read Russian media.
There's tons of foreign media published in Russian, just like there's tons of foreign media published in English - and few people read them because they're too busy talking about Big Brother/Dom on Facebook/Vkontakte.
Bloke I work with who has a Russian girlfriend is convinced that the Ukranian forces shot the plane down as they were after Putin who was allegedly flying in a plane near by.
Is your bloke's girlfriend a journalist for Russia Today?
Just looking through this collection of photos and spotted this:
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/jeroenakkermans/14515216568/in/set-72157645790319631/
🙁
Quite a lot of close up photos of the damage. Looking like an engine strike at the moment rather than the fuselage from the pics I've seen so far.
another one that stands out 🙁
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/jeroenakkermans/14721749853/in/set-72157645790319631/
The Internet is currently largely uncensored, Facebook, BBC and Twitter are all available, but your average Russian wont understand English so wont be interested in the western viewpoint. Same as we dont read Russian media.
Fair point.
Andyl - does that mean a heatseeker then?
How about the Sky journalist rummaging through someone's luggage ?
Kay Burley was there...?
This is a pretty grim question, but my 12 yr old daughter asked me earlier. How did/do most people die in a situation like this? Clearly hurtling into the ground at x mph is going to be a killer but am I right in thinking most would not survive the sudden decompression at 30000 ft and 500 odd mph. I tried to explain to her that fortunately this would be the case and they wouldn't have known (I hope) I couldn't however explain why it happened!
I think the answer for a 12 year old would be that the lack of oxygen would lead to them passing out in seconds and not feeling anything - theres some videos on hypoxia blackouts in pilot training on youtube
unfortunately, from what I remember of the Lockerbie postmortems (I had a couple of friends involved in the clearup) thats not always the case, and they had some cases of people conscious after impact 🙁
edit - here: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Lockerbie+10+Years+On%3A+The+dead+girl+still+had+tufts+of+grass+in+her...-a060628228
very sad
Watching the footage of Putin demonstrating his martial art skills on Newsnight.
Do you reckon if we stopped short blokes, who've clearly got a complex about it, having access to power (and weapons systems) all this kind of shenanigans could've been avoided?
He really is international politics answer to those angry pint-sized blokes who starts on you in the pub for looking at their pint!
Putin is 170cm. he's not tall but he's not remarkably short, either
I bet you wish Cameron was as hard a man as a Putin, or at least half of it.
It depends what style of news you fancy West vs East, meanwhile in Israel ...
Andyl - does that mean a heatseeker then?
No, I still believe it's the radar guided missile from all the scenario evidence but after looking at those images the debris in the wing sections didn't seem to tie up with fan blades from below the wing.
I then spotted this:
[img] 
[/img]
Which would seem to be the side of the cockpit and it's not hard to make out what looks to be the story there.
Looks like maybe the front port side and the other images show the outer section of what I think is the port wing that has torn off.
This image looks like the tail section:
based on the width, seems to be cut outs on either side and the red stripe is close to the cut out. The section in front is like a wing box and the horizontal stabiliser is normally a single piece that passes through.
Here is the vertical stabiliser/rubber. Bit chunk missing on the upper leading edge so maybe an impact with another bit of the plane? The way the crop is splayed out looks like it landed nice and flat.
Also spotted seat row 31 which is behind the wing box. D-H is the middle section so we can expect complete separation of the tail from the back of the wingbox which supports the tail section, rear door section etc that are all seen scattered away from the main crash site.
The main crash site with all the fire seems to have at least one engine and one rear undercarriage leg, possibly and probably 2. Looks like the bulk of the centre section of the aicraft and this is obviously were most of the fuel is hence the fire. Looks like it hit the ground very hard. The is also the underside of one of the wings visible.
It looks like the explosion was in the front port segment - ie along side the cabin and infront of the port engine. I think the gashes I can make out on the wing are from the blast not from the engine and the marks on the cockpit definitely looks like they are direct from the blast and it was close.
Will be interesting (from a wanting know what happened and engineering sense) how the plane broke up.
The photo above was released yesterday morning.
It is indeed the port side of the 777 cockpit and shows textbook marking off a hit by a SAM. All of the small puncture wounds around the main hole are consistent with the SAM detonating within approximately a 20m distance from the aircraft as they are designed to do - they send a shower of hot metal at the target for maximum chance of damage.
The large hole in the middle will have been from the rapid decompression just after impact - consistent with the hole looking like it was punched from the inside out.
I bet you wish Cameron was as hard a man as a Putin, or at least half of it.
I dunno, I think even Cameron is tough enough to shoot a wild tiger (that's already been drugged out of shot of the cameras).
