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FWIW I think the mods and STWers have got it about right. On 'Trans' issues we are 10,000,000 times more woke than Mumsnet.
If people see posts that are personal, abusive or break the rules we all need to hit the report button.
Why should it be upon the forum to work out what it needs to do? , have comments been made directly to yourself ?
The list of excuses and justifications from those who perpetuate these microaggressions, in race, in gender identity , in sexual orientation is long and you can never tie them down. There is always a loophole of some sort which turns the offence back on the the offended or the complainant. Not coincidentally, the perpetrators are often straight white males who enjoy a privileged position sin society, for whom the greatest discrimination experienced is to be called privileged.
I spent a lot of effort on here calling out racism or cultural insensitivity when i saw it, not once do i remember anyone recognising that what they said might not be OK, and only once did someone accept that they might change their behaviour in certain circumstances. The mods have not been supportive on occasion posting racially insensitive material themselves.
If people see posts that are personal, abusive or break the rules we all need to hit the report button.
how about a reconsideration of the rules?
ransos
Subscriber
What do you think?
I think I asked you a question and didn't get an answer
Yesterday there was a hoo-hah about the use of an offensive word. When I was young you would hear that word daily, it has taken decades for that change.
where was that?
Firstly I find your contributions valuable. You have taught me things about trans issues I needed to know. There are complexities in that the needs and rights of different vulnerable people can appear to be mutually exclusive ie woman's refuges. However one thing you showed me was that I do not know enough to have an informed opinion so I tend to stay out of these debates
On moderation there has been a clampdown and one effect of this is it makes it harder to call people out for nasty posts. I was warned for calling someone out recently and because of my history on here I will always be on a shortly peg and this makes me reluctant to call people out as I seem unable to do so without falling foul of the mods
Report the posts Rachel and don't give up on us please
Some people are dicks unfortunately, and recently seem to be abusing freedom of speech, to justify continuing being a dick.
I know it's easy for someone else to say Rachel, but all you can do ignore it (I know you shouldn't have to) and carry on.
Whilst I would not want to defend any of the more bigoted or spiteful posts that have been made, I do often feel that several people on here are genuinely confused re sex, sexuality, gender,… etc. The whole area is relatively new and whilst some people have been dealing with the issues for all their lives, many are only now beginning to consider them.
Really? What's to be confused about? Just because someone can't imagine feeling a particular way about their own gender/sexuality/whatever shouldn't prevent them from understanding that someone else does feel that way. Nobody has a problem with people asking questions to try and understand something - the issue is using dismissive/derogatory terms that make people feel bad or excluded.
I'm really sorry that Rachel is upset about all the trans posts on here however being "woke" and accepting everything the TRA's say is not canon. There are debates to be had especially about gender recognition, self id, transgenders in sport etc.
You don't have to accept the "born in the wrong body" mantra to be kind, accepting and understanding of the no doubt invidious position of transgendered people.
I’ll admit to having read threads and posts by the usual suspects you list in your post (rene59, technicallyinept and geetee in particular) and thought “what does Rachel think about this?”. I doubt they realise that ther are trans people using the forum, but more scarily I don’t think they care.
Rachel,
I'm sorry if anything I've posted has upset you.
I am concerned at:
- the level of hatred directed at gender critical women on social media (twitter especially)
- the sports situation (especially in youth sports e.g. Andrea Yardwood),
- real (not literal) violence when women want to meet (bombs threats, masked protesters),
- twitter bans/suspensions for people (including transsexuals) for such wrongthink as quoting the definition of rape in UK law etc etc.
- the 'transing' of confused kids (many of which would grow up to be gay)
I cannot believe you support this either.
Anyone who thinks I'm anti trans, you are deliberately misconstruing what I'm saying.
how about a reconsideration of the rules?
Why not? What new rule would you suggest?
wrongthink
Your duckspeak is ungood.
What some middle aged muppets on a bike forum say is a shit metric by which to measure your worth
you are deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying.
or maybe what you're saying isn't what you think you're saying?
You only have to glance through the thread Rachel refers to in her OP to see that there are some on here as thick as the average Youtube commenter..
Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society. As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.
Utter nonsense, this place is incredibly liberal, open and inclusive. If I walk away from my desk and up to the mechy workshop*, within 5 minutes I'll have heard some form of racism, gay jibes or other nonsense, this place is nothing like that.
In general, society is way more tolerant than it's ever been, but you get the odd dick here and there, fact of life I'm afraid.
*Thankfully, these kinda attitudes are dying out, but they're still about.
should we have a sweepstake?
Why not? What new rule would you suggest?
I would suggest the following is more clearly defined as a rule rather than an ethos
The ethos of this forum must be one of mutual respect for everyone who uses it.
and some clearer operationalisaton of
when the argument becomes heated or abuse begins to creep in, then you will have crossed the line. If you don’t step back from it then you will likely be moderated.
which appears to allow abuse, so long you step back. Also, why only 'likely'?
you are deliberately misconstruing what I’m saying.
or maybe what you’re saying isn’t what you think you’re saying?
Such as? Though maybe this thread is not the place, perhaps someone would like to start another personal attack thread.
Whilst I would not want to defend any of the more bigoted or spiteful posts that have been made, I do often feel that several people on here are genuinely confused re sex, sexuality, gender,… etc. The whole area is relatively new and whilst some people have been dealing with the issues for all their lives, many are only now beginning to consider them. I have seen posted “go and read about it”, but sometimes I think people need to talk things through with others. It may take time to see the change people want/expect, but things will progress.
I'm going to out myself here, in more ways than one. My youngest (12yo) is having severe gender identity issues and we are part of the way down the process of a FTM transition. I personally don't really know how I feel about this other than i love them dearly and will do anything to protect them. Rachel has provided some sage advice already and i know I can turn to her again at any time, and I'm saddened if she feels she is not welcome here. I too have read some stuff recently on here and thought whether I need to step away.
I'll also out myself in the sense that even as someone who has inevitably read and spoken to more sources about this than i suspect many on here, I still haven't much of a clue about navigating my way in this area without causing offence, but I also think I can spot someone who 'doesn't know better' and someone whose intent is to stir shit up. And I think some on here fall into that category, I'm afraid.
I would suggest the following is more clearly defined as a rule rather than an ethos The ethos of this forum must be one of mutual respect for everyone who uses it.
I'm all for that, care to offer an example of something that has been allowed in the (say) the brain thread that would break a 'rule' version of "showing mutual respect". (The deleted stuff already breaks the rules and is gone.) If that became a rule the political threads would go, which would be a good thing IMHO.
which appears to allow abuse, so long you step back. Also, why only ‘likely’?
I'm all in favour of that. Abuse is wrong and should be reported and removed. I think you'd be hard pushed to find instances of reported abuse that haven't been removed. Maybe we're all a bit slow in reporting stuff.
Here was me thinking the thread title was going to be about some of the things Rachael has mentioned in the past.....
There are lots of opinions on here I find offensive but that doesn’t mean they should be shut down or closed off.
It's the same away from the internet too, no matter who you are you're always going to hear things you don't like or upset you at some point in life. It might sound harsh but you just need to learn to deal with that and ignore it.
If you can't do that you're just going to waste your life getting upset about things that are out of your control!
I’m all in favour of that. Abuse is wrong and should be reported and removed. I think you’d be hard pushed to find instances of reported abuse that haven’t been removed. Maybe we’re all a bit slow in reporting stuff.
lots of the racism stuff
abusive terminology, abusive language
lots of the racism stuff
abusive terminology, abusive language
You haven't provided any examples. Find me something racist, I'll report it, I bet it's gone by tomorrow.
If you want rule changes you really need to be specific. It sounds to me like the stuff you'd ban is already banned.
"Adieu, farewell, titty bye etc etc."
Some good has come out of this already .
I'm not really on here enough anymore to suss it, but I'm assuming rene59 used to be on here under a different alias?
Anyway seems like he's flouncing, sincerely feel free to never come back! Your posts have caught my eyes over the last few weeks as bigoted, racist and narrow-minded. You'll not be missed.
You haven’t provided any examples. Find me something racist, I’ll report it, I bet it’s gone by tomorrow.
It's been a while, but it wasn't when i reported it. Perhaps you have more influence
I was not aware you were Trans, and it should not matter, i simply thought you were a cool lady that rode motorbikes and liked Morocco, both things i've been lucky enough to enjoy also.
So just carry on being you, ignore the idiots unless they cross a line, then report them. Unfortunately there will always be fools, and any forum whatever it is based around, from mountain biking to knitting will be a mirror on the world in parts.
I have always enjoyed your posts and you have more than most to contribute, so please keep doing so.
I also think I can spot someone who ‘doesn’t know better’
Who hopefully can be educated
and someone whose intent is to stir shit up.
I know it's hard but they are best ignored.
There are clearly some blinkered views on the thread in question but I suspect it's largely ignorance and a touch of arrogance perhaps, rather than malice.
Utter nonsense
“Adieu, farewell, titty bye etc etc.”
Some good has come out of this already .
Ok look. Can we just leave the casual nastiness please? On a thread condemning casual nastiness?
Saying that a poster's opinion is 'utter nonsense' is caustic, corrosive and unpleasant. Those words are completely dismissive, and they can only be said to dismiss the contribution and belittle the contributor. Which makes people defensive and upset. I don't want to live in a world (or use a forum) where everyone is dismissing each other all the time.
Likewise the snide comments about someone leaving. Not at all helpful, and it just spreads nastiness. If you make comments like this you are being part of the problem.
It’s been a while, but it wasn’t when i reported it. Perhaps you have more influence
Ok, I'll take your word for it. You've still failed to provide an example of anything that needs changing, which suggests to me they've got it right.
I think STW mods have got it about right.
Ok, today STW has made one person on one side of a debate cry, and one person on the other side of a debate flounce. That doesn't mean there's a problem with the site or the modding, that's just forums.
What has surprised me in recent weeks and months, is not just the output of the usual agitators and their crusade against women and lgbt persons, but the amount of 70's style casual bigotry that others have injected into those threads.
Along with a defense of the agitators, by pretending that their bodies of posting history don't exist, and trying to isolate every single post they make as the only one on the subject.
But that is IMO where modding becomes very difficult. There was, for example, one regular poster who expressed deep concerns about sex crimes, each post he made could on the face of it appear quite reasonable, and frankly when taken individually nothing to report to the mods. But, when looking at the body of his posts he only highlighted and railed against sex crimes committed by muslim migrants, he had no interest in the victims or the crimes other than to use them as a weapon against a whole group. Very hard for the mods to pick up on such things though.
is 'flounce' a comment designed to belittle 😉
Yes, it is.
Ok, I’ll take your word for it. You’ve still failed to provide an example of anything that needs changing, which suggests to me they’ve got it right.
You can't do both those things.
But for what it's worth things may have changed considerably since i was last busy here, but i would often see racist / xenophobic comments here and either get caught in discussion with mods or report it, only to have the comments stand, excused by weasel words.
I really have no desire to search through post to find examples of offensive terminology just to get caught up in semantic arguments or excuses.
Fair play Rachel.
I am with scotroutes, I don't think this forum has become anymore offensive. Plenty of posters have said offensive things for years through basic lack of knowledge in the subject that they discussing, clumsy and thoughtless phrasing, or simply because they want to.
What has changed is that there is a wide ranging debate in society about gender and as you would expect that is then picked up here. Obviously this is a debate about something which is closer to your heart than probably anyone else on here and therefore there is a strong likelihood when confronted by opposing views you will find that deeply upsetting.
In a perfect world we would all listen to and be respectful of each others viewpoints, but unfortunately many are incapable of this because in their view, there is nothing to debate, everything is settled. We are all guilty of this to an extent.
Other than banning threads on certain sensitive subjects, I can't see what STW can do as I think it is too much to expect them to moderate everything.
Saying that a poster’s opinion is ‘utter nonsense’ is caustic, corrosive and unpleasant. Those words are completely dismissive, and they can only be said to dismiss the contribution and belittle the contributor. Which makes people defensive and upset. I don’t want to live in a world (or use a forum) where everyone is dismissing each other all the time.
Thanks Molgrips - I thought that illustrated my point pretty well!
Remember for every arseohle, there is a good person. the arseholes just stand out more.
I'd like to think there are multiple good guys for every arsehole, but the arseholes are more vocal.
All the best to Rachel - you're one of the people who make this forum a better place and I suspect you're the same in RealLife.
is ‘flounce’ a comment designed to belittle
I'm not sure. Doesn't it just mean "Person publicly leaving a forum"??? Maybe I should report my post and see what the mods do. If I'm still here tonight it's kosher.
I’m not sure. Doesn’t it just mean “Person publicly leaving a forum”???
It implies a melodramatic exit in a camp or effete way. Which could also be a bit homophobic.
Just goes to show how ingrained negative behaviour is when people don't even know they are doing it.
Maybe I should report my post and see what the mods do. If I’m still here tonight it’s kosher.
Bit draconian - maybe send yourself the handbags gif and even it out?
This has all rather passed me by I'm afraid - but I have noticed two things recently:
An increase in threads started about divisive topics with (it seems) the sole intention to start an argument.
An increase in the number of posters (or maybe just the number of posts?) who seem to post some stupid/outrageous shit. Maybe this is trolling, and they just get a kick out of riling people up - but I'm inclined to think that there is a trend at present for people with fringe views to feel emboldened to spout aformentionned stupid/outrageous shit, and demand that we all take their view seriously.
My own view is that this place is tolerant and friendly - but with the less tolerant and friendly voices somehow being louder recently. Maybe the rest of us with more informed/liberal viewpoint need to be more visible
Moderation on here (and everywhere else I suppose) is highly subjective, it's a series of judgement calls. We let something slide, we're accused of being too lenient; we delete something and we're too draconian; different moderators do different things and we're inconsistent or biased. There's an element here of damned if we do and damned if we don't, so we simply strive to do the best we can. We don't always get it right, but we try.
Censorship is a tricksy thing, and something I'm not a huge fan of. As soon as you start removing controversial opinions it's a slippery slope, where do you draw the line? Either you allow pretty much anything or you ban everything, any middle ground is where personal bias inevitably has to creep in. I can't comment for the rest of the team but generally when I see something I'm not sure about I'll err on the side of leaving it be unless someone reports it.
On That Thread yesterday I could have either started deleting posts with gay abandon as a moderator, or engage and challenge as a user. I chose the latter because I see nothing to be gained from brushing things under the carpet, but calling someone out might just make them (or other readers) reconsider their viewpoint. Optimistic and naive perhaps I know, and in hindsight it might not have been the correct call, but that was my thought process.
Rachel, I'm sorry if the discussion yesterday upset you. I've never met you but from your posts here you seem like an awesome person who has been through a lot. Some folk don't seem to realise that when they're frantically bashing away at their keyboards they're actually talking about real people, they could do to remember that.