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The bloke really is a dangerous muppet.
Thing is... he doesn’t care what You think, what the WSC think, what any other country or persons in their respective countries think.
He only cares about himself and his supporters.
Ok, so we’ve made that clear... can we move onto calling Trump names and making fun of him please.
We are in a new era where what You thinks doesn’t matter in the slightest. He, like LyingBloHard will just do what they want and dismiss any accusations or negative comments against them.
And some of you voted for it.
So, you get what you vote for.
No, he's a muppet.
And he is very happy to name call everyone else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nicknames_used_by_Donald_Trump
I thought that Iran and Iraq hated each other, having been at war, so why was he in Iraq?
The whole area is a mixing pot of alliances, rebellions, cooperations, "understandings" and proxy warfare. Enemies will become friends if they have a further common enemy, friends will become enemies, and some people (and countries) will sit on the side and profit from the whole mess. Russia is kind of good at that.
Sometimes you can have a third "independent" country act as a mediator or go-between for whatever their own ends happen to be at that time. Most of the region has a fairly common aim of stopping Iran getting a nuclear weapon. It is fascinating but also really confusing. I cant for one second believe that Donald Trump understands any of it.
I thought that Iran and Iraq hated each other, having been at war, so why was he in Iraq?
Saddam & the Baathists didn't get on with Iran, as the former were socialist Arab nationilsts & Iran is religious (shia) nationalists
But Saddam was ruling over a 2/3rds shia 1/3rd suni country & surpressing all religion, plenty of Shia Iraqis didn't agree with the war, , when he was killed all the Sunni - Shia stuff got stirred up.
And then the wahabists (ISIS) took power - wahabism is the ultra strict Sunni version of islam that the Sauds teamed up with & used to completely control saudi arabia. (Obviously it got out of control & birthed Al, Qaeda ISIS etc)
They were brutal to everyone, especially shias
Shia militias backed by Iran, teamed up with Kurds & USA! to boot out ISIS , Solemeini also fighting with Assad to boot them out of Syria , but also terrorising many Sunnis in Syria & brutally putting down the FSA
(meanwhile Iran was also supporting Houthi rebels in the brutal civil war in Yemen that has been mishandled so terribly by the Saudis who support the Yemeni government & Sunni militias there)
Ever since trumps sanctions on Iran came in Shia militias have been fighting against the American backed Iraqi military rather than just saudi, Israeli (via hezbolah) & Yemeni (via houthi) interests as they had been until then...
Dunno where this leaves the UK & Trump , there are no good guys, but we do seem to be on the side of those starving out millions in Yemen, helped create AlQaeda & dismember journalists whilst alive at their embassy...
Anyway it's a mess
But we should remember the Iranians are provoking the USA.
Look at this diagram...
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Current Iranian regime wasn't at all popular with most of Iran so this really is a massive own goal from the orange one, he's bolstered a regime that was on the wane. I really hope we don't get dragged into it
Current Iranian regime wasn’t at all popular with most of Iran so this really is a massive own goal from the orange one, he’s bolstered a regime that was on the wane.
You make that sound like a pro western Iran would be a good thing for trump and most of the republican party, it wouldn't. There's huge political capital in opposing a "bad" Iran, especially with the sort of core support trump has. It's a very good way of deflecting attention from US support of iran's oil rich neighbours and the potential outcomes are at the very worst end of the spectrum, only likely to bolster support for a (markedly profitable) hard line on Iran even from the less hawkish elements in US politics. One thing you can count on is US citizens take actual attacks on Americans (especially if that ends up being on US soil) very much as a bad thing, regardless of the attacks being easily traceable to US foreign policy, any real Iranian retaliation means no scrapping of sanctions and no appeasement will be saleable from either side of us politics.
In likelihood the major impact will be on Saudi and oil supplies, which means increased arms sales to Saudi and higher oil prices. As a major supplier of those arms and a roughly net exporter of oil the US won't be hurt too badly (beyond maybe a small ish body count which, as above, is politically a good thing in the run up to an election where you're looking to pick up /hold votes from angry people) and for trump and the majority of rich republicans increased oil prices for no increase in production cost is a significant boon as most of them are heavily invested in oil and arms (precisely because its profitable).
It's likely made trump more electable and richer so not sure how it's an own goal for a man who cares little for anyone else.
Regarding anyone else mind we're likely to end up paying for it, especially now we're not going to be part of the pro normalisation EU block and will doubtless be tarred with the same brush.
I'm spending quite a bit of time sending people to read about the coup in Iran that we orchestrated to try and keep hold of Iranian oil which led to the Shah, which led to the Islamic revolution. It's a very interesting read and really is an important step to understating the whole issue.
And Iran Air flight 655 is an eye opener too.
The Iranian government is far from being blameless, but it doesn't take much time to realise that the US are worse. They just have a more effective way of spinning things.
That image showing US bases surrounding Iran is important too. Iran has been weighed down by US led embargoes for years, and that whole time they are literally surrounded by the war machine of a country that openly threatens them at every opportunity.
This latest move is clearly an attempt to distract from the impeachment process. And pleasing the gun-toting warmongering parts of US society is a proven vote winner.
The Iranian government is far from being blameless, but it doesn’t take much time to realise that the US are worse.
No, the Trump administration is the worst in living memory and the US has a long history of nasty meddling in other countries, but the Iranian government is much worse than the U.S. government. People vote with their feet. Not many people risking their lives to become refugees in Iran, tens of thousands in the U.S. Doesn't make starting a war with Iran a good idea, but the Iranian government is really up there when it comes to nastiness.
I'm speaking more generally. The US government's scope of disastrous meddling is much more widespread and catastrophic. The Iranian influence is far more localised, and you could argue that they limit themselves to issues that are on their geographic doorstep.
But yes, the Iranian government are awful.
Trump said he would retaliate if US personel or sites are attacked
They may not attack the type of "sites" we expect..
"Iran, one of the countries most strongly identified with the rise cyber terrorism and malicious hacking..."
https://techcrunch.com/2020/01/06/homeland-security-iran-cyberattacks/
Could get interesting.
The Iranian government is far from being blameless, but it doesn’t take much time to realise that the US are worse. They just have a more effective way of spinning things.
The American government has a very poor record in meddling to say the least but overall I would rather live in any place in the US than Iran. In 5 years Trump will be history however I am sure the Shah's and theocratic rulers of Iran will still be hanging gay people, treating women very poorly and ensuring that the hate campaign against the US (and Britain by extension) is still front and centre of every government poster and TV program.
I should add in fairness Irans probably still a nicer place to live than Saudi!
We should feel guilty about what we have done in the past to Iran and both the US and Britain are directly responsible for where Iran is now but lets be honest, when has the current Iranian government ever made approaches to normalize relations, it would never happen, they need bogie men just as much as the West (or East etc).
Also, and I may be shielded from the press (feel free to correct me) but not many governments are publicly criticizing Trump, more trying to distance themselves from what he ordered....I suspect he has done many people a favor but no ones wants to acknowledge it without getting caught in the backlash.
Also, and I may be shielded from the press (feel free to correct me) but not many governments are publicly criticizing Trump, more trying to distance themselves from what he ordered
That's because of politics. Most countries in private will be saying what the **** has that idiot done now and in no way would they personally support him.
However, taking the UK as an example, we can't come out and call him an idiot as
next month we will be trying to get a trade deal with that idiot.
Ethics and honesty are thrown out of the window when it comes to global politics...
"People vote with their feet."
As an aside, Iran's emigration numbers, whilst hard to come by, seem to be roughly the same as the UK's.
both the US and Britain are directly responsible for where
Iranthe Middle East is now
FTFY
Linda Smith had it nailed: "the problem in the Middle East is that, somehow, our oil has ended up under their sand."
.I suspect he has done many people a favor but no ones wants to acknowledge it without getting caught in the backlash.
Im not sure this is the case at all, most western countries are having to redeploy & bolster troops, on a personal note my MIL wont be going to visit my BIL in Dubai next month as all his leave has been cut & his ship is now on escort duty in the gulf. The financial costs to military budgets will be felt by governments, not to mention the rising economic cost on oil & stock markets that will be felt by all of us.
While Iran have said that they will start enrichning uranium again
The Iranian government is far from being blameless, but it doesn’t take much time to realise that the US are worse. They just have a more effective way of spinning things.
Yes, they want Israel wipe out that is why Israel constantly sees them as a the main constant threat (also getting closer territory wise) so have to cosy up to US administration. Iran makes themselves a target with their constant threats. In fact they don't know the advantage they have without even needing to use threat. Just become a prosperous nation and nature will take care of itself.
The American government has a very poor record in meddling to say the least but overall I would rather live in any place in the US than Iran.
That is the nature of American as they found themselves to be far capable, militarily after WWI & WWII, than any other nation in the world so use that to their advance. "Gun boat diplomacy" anyone? But the world is changing and in the near or far future the line will be drawn between two systems of East and West and this time clearly.
In 5 years Trump will be history however I am sure the Shah’s and theocratic rulers of Iran will still be hanging gay people, treating women very poorly and ensuring that the hate campaign against the US (and Britain by extension) is still front and centre of every government poster and TV program.
Nothing last forever and Trump will finish his second term with some major mistakes made. As for trying to criticise Iran for the way they govern themselves that is their prerogative. It is their country and only their own people can change that. Not the western democratic/pluralistic ideology as that is imposing by force. Historically, many major empires/dynasties fell not because of being defeated but the true downfall came from their own people who want change. As I have said many times over don't force change on others just because they don't have the same mindset like you (referring to the leaders), invite the people to come live here (west) if you really care about them.
We should feel guilty about what we have done in the past to Iran and both the US and Britain are directly responsible for where Iran is now but lets be honest, when has the current Iranian government ever made approaches to normalize relations, it would never happen, they need bogie men just as much as the West (or East etc).
Why feel guilty? It is human nature to grab what they can when they have the advantage to do so. From the far east to the far west. Human nature dictates that if you have the power to grab by force you do it. The question is how will you cope if the table is turn?
Also, and I may be shielded from the press (feel free to correct me) but not many governments are publicly criticizing Trump, more trying to distance themselves from what he ordered….
Why criticise Trump if they are the backbone to the Western military prowess? In the far east we all know that the so called distancing from American is just a joke. They can't. On the other, in a similar way, have you seen Islamic countries condemning Iran wanting to wipe out Israel even they are slightly different in their approach to their religion?
I suspect he has done many people a favor but no ones wants to acknowledge it without getting caught in the backlash.
The other countries (on both sides) know that but just can't do anything about it or simply couldn't care less because it is also in their benefits.
In fact they don’t know the advantage they have without even needing to use threat. Just become a prosperous nation and nature will take care of itself.
They were, then had a revolution. Of the worst sort.
They were, then had a revolution. Of the worst sort.
Prosperous for those at the top, not saying it's better now, but the Shah was not a pleasant regime for all, is an authoritarian monarchy probably better than an authoritarian theocracy?
And which revolution, they've had several,, the last Was driven by anti- western sentiment as much as anything and that goes back to Churchill refusing to let go of the empire & BP who were the only oil company allowed to operate there, resulting in Truman kicking out the only democratic government Iran ever elected to be replaced with the Shah
They were, then had a revolution. Of the worst sort.
Not necessarily as Iran has a young population if I can recall which outweigh the traditional ultra conservative. Let them live out in their own ways or systems and if they got bored they will change it. Stop meddling in others affairs but be prepared for the inevitable. If they invade Israel it is still not too late to act considering the fire power the West has. Only US can carry out a fight to other nations. Israel is no push over as well as seen in their 7 days war.
Prosperous for those at the top, not saying it’s better now, but the Shah was not a pleasant regime for all, is an authoritarian monarchy probably better than an authoritarian theocracy?
Regardless of what regime they have and if then people cannot stomach it any more they will overthrown the government. Note that unlike western democracy the middle east or eastern ideology is to see the leader as someone they respect with not much questions asked. In a way it is the people who give the leader the power to become an authoritarian/dictator etc.
And which revolution, they’ve had several,, the last Was driven by anti- western sentiment ..."
That's because the West stick their nose into their affairs. Thus, the West makes themselves the rallying call/target for their own internal problems.
Prosperous for those at the top, not saying it’s better now, but the Shah was not a pleasant regime for all, is an authoritarian monarchy probably better than an authoritarian theocracy?
As bad as each other, both dictatorships, but under the Shah it was a fairly progressive nation.
Was Soleimani a terrorist though? He did terrible things, and was a despicable human being, but he was the chief of staff of the armed forces for a large, wealthy internationally recognised independent state. Terrorist is pushing it.
The word terrorist is cheapened by the constant labelling of everyone that America doesn’t like as such. It’s a convenient way to justify all manner of international extrajudicial nastiness.
Things just escalated!
Attacking USA bases seem more of a gesture from the reports so far.
But the aeroplane crash is ominous ... and without doubt terrible news!!
The trade sanctions against Iran if anything have helped keep the theocrats in power, people have been impoverished but they are encouraged to look to an external enemy. Normalising relations would give domestic dissidents more of a chance to bring about progressive change.
We seemed to have forgotten that Iranian proxies and Kurds were until very recently allies in the fight against ISIS. Then we find the Israelis set up field hospitals in the Golan heights to patch up ISIS fighters to go back and fight the Iranians, the Kurds were abandoned to be attacked by Turkey and now the US is attacking Iran and politicians and the media just seem to justify whatever it is that is going on. What a kin world we live in.
By way of a footnote, my Muslim colleague told me this morning that in Iran civil servants are obliged to attend any state event like a funeral or risk sacking or wose. So how genuine was all that chest-beating?
I'll add that I've been in a few countries when 'anti-west' protests were going on, especially the flag burning thing.
It was very surreal, as I have always been with a friend or colleague waling past it happening, with the western camera crews getting right in their faces. The my friend says "hello bob" to one of the 'protestors' who comes over for a nice chat, shake of the hand, pleased to meet me, then back to flag burning for the cameras.
Its a load of bollocks.
Its a load of bollocks.
I'm not convinced, it's like royal weddings, I can't imagine anyone giving 2 hoots about it, but you always get some crazies draped in Union jack's who have got the train to Windsor & camped out the night before to make sure they catch a glimpse of the glorious monarch 🤪
globalti
...in Iran civil servants are obliged to attend any state event like a funeral or risk sacking or wose. So how genuine was all that chest-beating?
In the 1970s when I was in the Australian Public Service I got an official reprimand for refusing to stand outside the office with the rest of them when the Queen went by on one of her visits.
Does that happen here?
Does that happen here?
We're still required to throw our cloak over puddles so the Royal rangerover doesn't get muddy, if you're poor you're to lie face down instead as there's a chance you're cloak might leak.
You know the Evil Empire in Star Wars...
If anyone wants to know the roots of Iranian distrust of the West and in particular the UK and USA, this is worth a read.
Regardless of what regime they have and if then people cannot stomach it any more they will overthrown the government. Note that unlike western democracy the middle east or eastern ideology is to see the leader as someone they respect with not much questions asked. In a way it is the people who give the leader the power to become an authoritarian/dictator etc.
Many authoritarians and dictators claim to have been granted legitimate rule by the people, or put another way that they have a valid social contract with the people. This is impossible, because once you consent to be ruled in such a way you cannot withdraw from or alter that contract. You have forfeited pretty much all your fundamental rights as a human to that ruler, and it is therefore illegitimate.
If you can justify authoritarian rule in this way, you will also have an easy time justifying slavery, which coincidentally was only outlawed in Iran under the Shah in the 20th century.
It is possible to hold the Iranian regime in absolute contempt for the same reason that most people abhor slavery, without being a war mongering cultural imperialist.
Interesting CBS article. During that period they told locals that 'BP' stood for 'Benzini Pars' ie Persian Petroleum.
Many authoritarians and dictators claim to have been granted legitimate rule by the people, or put another way that they have a valid social contract with the people.
Doesn't matter if they are legitimate or legitimate they will Not last forever if they start tightening the noose on the people. They can be there for one or two generations but not forever.