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We really should have crowdfunded this to pay the fine or just buy some more dope...
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I think i passed the "close your eyes touch your nose/close your eyes bring your finger tips together/walk along a line one foot in front of the other".
If it's any consolation, I'm pretty damned certain I'd fail that stone cold sober!
A g/f used to gently mock my lack of poise and balance!
She had taken ballet lessons for years and karate as well, but she had a valid point. 😀
FWIW, I love cannabis & really wish it was legal in the UK. It should be available on prison canteens at least.
We don't get weed in UK prisons anymore because it can be tested for quite easily & cheaply, also the remnants/evidence/residue or whatever It's called can stay in the body for up to 30 days.
Everyone's on 'spice' now which is screwing people up beyond belief.
You lot however, won't hear about that or even give a shit.
Really? There's been stuff about it on the news in recent months, it's certainly no surprise to me.
But also, why should I give a shit? It's the responsibility of those in charge to stop the access to such things in prison.
[quote=CountZero ]I think i passed the "close your eyes touch your nose/close your eyes bring your finger tips together/walk along a line one foot in front of the other".
If it's any consolation, I'm pretty damned certain I'd fail that stone cold sober!
A g/f used to gently mock my lack of poise and balance!
She had taken ballet lessons for years and karate as well, but she had a valid point.
Can you juggle tho
do the dutch have an issue with stoned drivers? Or the Portuguese?
the only research I have seen on cannabis and driving showed little but some detriment - far less than drink driving. Perhaps a similar level of impairment to driving when tired. Also the mistakes tended to be less dangerous ones - such as driving too slowly, stopping at green traffic lights that sort of thing. The problem with post crash testing is that you cannot separate out cannabis from other stuff they have in their system as polypharmaceia is common or having had a drink as well. Drink and cannabis is a deadly combination on the roads tho. Even levels of drink that would be legal, when combined with cannabis makes for significant impairment
As for the powers that be keeping drugs out of prisons - you think they don't try? Its an impossible thing to stop and along with the synthetic spice there is also a significant heroin problem as heroin only is detectable for a very short time, cannabis for weeks. and you need a far smaller quantity of heroin so its easier to smuggle in. So bored inmates take heroin as its far less likely they will be caught.
ON driving there are two issues - driving whilst impaired and driving with above a certain level in your blood. I believe in England now there is roadside testing for cannabis and other drugs and there are prescribed limits but its really not clear if you are significantly impaired at the limit.
I have seen stoned drivers pass the impairment tests easily
Even astronauts get stoned
We were warned about the dangers of spice at "the talk" given at my son's school when he entered y9 I think it was. An ex copper who said to hope that your son gets into weed because it's far less dangerous than legal highs and especially spice.
thing is there is only a market for these "legal" ( no longer) highs because of our stupid prohibition laws.
Look at the dutch and Portuguese experiences to see that being relaxed about cannabis leads to far less problem drug use.
[quote=tjagain ]thing is there is only a market for these "legal" ( no longer) highs because of our stupid prohibition laws.
Look at the dutch and Portuguese experiences to see that being relaxed about cannabis leads to far less problem drug use.
Maybe, or maybe there's a difference in the culture? Clearly we have problems here with abuse of a quite legal drug - I'm sure we're not unique in that, but neither is it a universal problem.
Portugal went from a very punitive approach to complete decriminalisation - and a few years in the problems with drugs in their society is much less than it was.
Prohibition and "the war on drugs" has failed. A harm reduction and healthcare based approach is proven to reduce problems with drug use.
Some of you lot would love it over here. Get caught with a trace in your system and it's pretty much an immediate 12 month driving ban with 3 monthly testing throughout the ban. Fail a test and your ban starts again. Miss a test and it goes out another 3 months.......
One of my team got done about 10 years ago. Had to tell me as he sometimes has to drive cars on the public highway for work. This meant it had to go on his file, it's just a tick box, yes or no for vehicle/factory gate access. Probably 95% of the people in the company have a no. But because his changed everyone wanted to know why. HR, my boss, factory manager, everyone who could see the change, most of them wanted to sack him. Including the guy who was still on a suspended sentence for alcohol related violence..... not his first either.
In hindsight, I'd have just changed his work orders so he didn't have to drive.
AFAIK he had 8 "random" drug tests in the two odd years he still worked for me (all passed). No one else had any, out of a dozen or so.
the only research I have seen on cannabis and driving showed little but some detriment - far less than drink driving. Perhaps a similar level of impairment to driving when tired. Also the mistakes tended to be less dangerous ones - such as driving too slowly, stopping at green traffic lights that sort of thing
They must have been either using very weak cannabis or biased research then, in my own very limited experience leaving a motorway service area via the entry slip road & riding a motorbike convinced that you have a puncture but not stopping because you don't want you pillion to realise how stoned you are = pretty impaired & dangerous.
I did once see some proper acedemic research on this but can't find it now
I apologise for the mail link but IIRC the site changes it. NOt hugely good research but gives an idea. Of course these people were concentrating on driving well - its possibly the lack of concentration that causes issues so this test will not be reliable.
"Then Evans started driving. After smoking the small amount of pot, he was more than five times the legal limit with a reading of 26 nanograms but drove normally.
Underberg also measured above the limit with a 21.7 nanograms. But his driving, while a little slower than normal, was excellent, Jackson said."
Fifth gear also did some testing with the same results. Can't find the video
Alpin, easier said than done but worrying will not change or help in the slightest - so don't. Occupy your head by planning for the worst and expect that to happen. Chances are it wont come to that but if it does just execute your plan. Pinkies crossed for ya maaaan!
p.s As a recent member of the non-smoking gang (6 weeks or so) i had conducted many of my own tests over 25+ years. My conclusion matches tjagain somewhat - on the odd occasion i drove after a smoke (several hours after btw) i drove like i'd just passed my test. Slow steady and even did the [i]passing the wheel through the hands thing on corners[/i] that i never do. This sedate pace was coupled with many years of driving/observation experience (in car/bike/motorbike) so i believe i was driving better. You might argue that my brain was addled (and i could fly etc) that's why i thought like this, but i don't believe this to be the case. I'm sure if measured accurately, my reaction may have been slightly slower than normal - but i was driving a lot slower/smoother than normal (and i generally smooth anyway (queue the swooning 😀 ). Not because i couldn't go faster - i was happy going slow and trying to be the perfect driver. In the right dosage (weak) it made me concentrate more. I didn't attempt to drive if heavily stoned.
Or maybe you were doing like some drink drivers do and overcompensating to try and hide the fact you had been smoking weed.
Drac - yes he probably was being more cautious because he had been smoking - but both the test I posted above ad the fifth gear test showed that unlike drunk drivers stoned drivers drove reasonably well and cautiously. co ordination is not impaired until you reach very high levels. a similar test with alcohol showed obvious impairment even below the (english) limit
The blood levels were brought in in the UK at least because even folk who were obviously stoned did not fail the impairment test. I have seen this for myself while working with the police. I think it is right that there is a blood level - it gives objective evidence. However what is not clear at all is what the levels should be. I think these are far too low but of course that is my opinion only.
on the odd occasion i drove after a smoke (several hours after btw) i drove like i'd just passed my test. Slow steady and even did the passing the wheel through the hands thing on corners that i never do. This sedate pace was coupled with many years of driving/observation experience (in car/bike/motorbike) so i believe i was driving better.
I know several drinkers who argue the same 😯 but I prefer your...
You might argue that my brain was addled
Anyway OP good luck with sorting the dependency out. That seems to be the most important issue as others have noted already.
I know very little about weed, but I'd perhaps posit that:
a) Comparisons with alcohol are probably unhelpful, a straw man even. They're different drugs with different effects.
b) I'd have thought that the best [i]objective[/i] judge of degree of impairment is the person using the drug? It's almost Dunning-Kruger, the nature of an impairment is that it also impairs your ability to analyse / recognise it.
Could be wrong on both counts, just my idle musings.
Everyone's on 'spice' now
How on earth is it getting in in sufficient quantity that "everyone" is on it? I can sort of understand it in dribs and drabs, surreptitiously palming it during visiting or something. But this would suggest it's happening on a much larger scale?
Something else I know little about I suppose, my only knowledge of the prison service is based on Prisoner: Cell Block H.
(and WTF is spice?)
spice is a very potent synthetic cannabinoid that until recently was legal to sell.
Drugs are regularly brought into prisons by a variety of methods - from someone "plugging" some ie concealing it in a body cavity and deliberately getting locked up ie having a warrant out for them and then presenting at a police station then going into jail and selling it / passing it to the boss to drone deliveries to throwing it over the fence to almost anything you can think of.
drone deliveries
😯 Seriously? Wow.
all the kids are on Spice now.
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Totally pointless comparing it to alcohol to weed, different drugs with different laws.
Drones is for posh prisons tennis ball over the wall is far more common. Privatisation of prisons means low staff levels so the wardens can't control the drugs getting in.
A couple of interesting documentaries on iPlayer about Spice and Prison.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07prjfm/life-inside-wandsworth-prison ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07prjfm/life-inside-wandsworth-prison[/url]
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03ny2n5/the-last-days-of-legal-highs?suggid=p03ny2n5 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p03ny2n5/the-last-days-of-legal-highs?suggid=p03ny2n5[/url]
hmm, obviously no sympathy for anyone driving while impaired by drink or drugs, however if the THC test really does test for historic use rather than how ****ed up you are at the time of testing then that's a pretty messed up test.
I spoke to a few lads yesterday who have been in a similar situation.
One heavy user who had 7ng in his blood, received massive fines and a two year ban. The whole ordeal ended up costing him around 200,000€ when lost earnings are taken into account.
I've got a few recommendations of lawyers who specialise in drug driving. Will try and get an appointment with one of them before the test results come back. Want to be prepared.
One idea floating around my head is to go along to the town hall and deregister and disappear from Germany.
Everyone's on 'spice' now
I'm not! 😀
I just managed to get through an entire bottle of red on Sat night, on my own. 😳
One idea floating around my head is to go along to the town hall and deregister and disappear from Germany.
offer up info on your dealers in exchange for a new id and a place on the witness protection scheme 😉
Just how much of this old spice do I have to drink? all I feel is nauseous and slightly hairier.
Spice still sounds like something from Brass Eye
Sting on Spice
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He who controls the spice controls the wing
Really? There's been stuff about it on the news in recent months, it's certainly no surprise to me.
But also, why should I give a shit? It's the responsibility of those in charge to stop the access to such things in prison.
Well I think you should give a shit, up to now at our place alone the record for ambulances/paramedics called in ONE day is 13, to attend prisoners whov'e gone under on NPS. Now give a shit or not, that's a serious state of affairs is it not? & who's in charge, any ideas?
spice is a very potent synthetic cannabinoid that until recently was legal to sell.
Drugs are regularly brought into prisons by a variety of methods - from someone "plugging" some ie concealing it in a body cavity and deliberately getting locked up ie having a warrant out for them and then presenting at a police station then going into jail and selling it / passing it to the boss to drone deliveries to throwing it over the fence to almost anything you can think of.
Nail, head.
It's really REALLY stressful for prison staff, believe me. One minute you can be trying to save a life & the next he's trying to gouge his (or your) eyes out. It's already happenned, a prisoner in Yorkshire took his own eyes out, properly out, while on NPS.
Can't think of anyone doing that while using weed...
He who controls the spice controls the wing
& is the end of a very large purple bell.
One idea floating around my head is to go along to the town hall and deregister and disappear from Germany.
Bravo! That says it all for me.
Doesn't say much more than the fact he's feeling really scared, does it?
Isn't that one of the side effects? (-:
🙂
I can't say too much as typing on phone, but I am not defending in any way someone that gets behind the wheel of a vehicle, that isn't capable to drive it.
The issue, IMO, is how that capability is determined/measured.
Forget the rights and wrongs. THC is stored longterm in the body. In anyway doesn't that concern you?
I've the perfect solution to being a heavy toker. Don't get a license! 😆 Works for me anyhow!
Saying that though, I've been in cars many many times with people that are stoned. It's absolutely nothing like drink driving. Not saying it's correct either, but I don't fear for my life..
Not paranoid.... Just scared of the potential cost and upset. But thinking about it now that my hangover has subsided, if the fine is that high then the authorities would come looking for me and if the fine is smaller then it's probably not worth the hassle....
Will try and speak to a lawyer tomorrow.
I've been in cars many many times with people that are stoned. It's absolutely nothing like drink driving. Not saying it's correct either, but I don't fear for my life
TBH I hate this attitude of stoners - their drug somehow leaves them more able to be off their tits and drive.
the only thing prisons tell us about drug use is if we cannot stop it getting in there with all the controls in place - not a dig at staff at all- then we sure as hell wont stop it in wider society.
A mature debate is required and is not going to happen till the older generation who believe reefer madness is a documentary shuffle off.
Most prisons would rather have stoned folk than drunk folk
I always remember the dutch cops reaction to drunk and rowdy english football fans - " they will be fine once they get to the coffee shops" !
Cannabis smokers cause little harm to society.
the only thing prisons tell us about drug use is if we cannot stop it getting in there with all the controls in place - not a dig at staff at all
All what controls? There's no staff to control anything, simple fact.
Most prisons would rather have stoned folk than drunk folk
As long as theyr'e not stoned on NPS. (Hooch is rarer now except for at Xmas & New Year)
Cannabis smokers cause little harm to society.
Or prison staff/Ambulance staff, which is why I'd love to see it legal in my place of work!
My experience is that is pretty much the case. It's just not the same as drink driving so comparisons arent really helpful.Junkyard - lazarusTBH I hate this attitude of stoners - their drug somehow leaves them more able to be off their tits and drive.
Tbh it must be a fairly easy thing to prove, must be stats about somewhere?
The evidence is - from memory when i did my degree
1. Cannabis impairs your performance on most tasks especially attention and co ordination
2. the effect is less in habitual users - ie they are more used to it
3. I know nothing about alcohol and i agree its almost definitely less but that is not to say that most smokers i know have no t riven in a state when their driving was impaired - even if it was still " good enough"
I went for actual research - its basically about 2 minutes worth
The researchers looked at 250 parameters of driving ability, but this paper focused on three in particular: weaving within the lane, the number of times the car left the lane, and the speed of the weaving. While alcohol had an effect on the number of times the car left the lane and the speed of the weaving, marijuana did not. Marijuana did show an increase in weaving. Drivers with blood concentrations of 13.1 ug/L THC, the psychoactive ingredient in cannabis, showed increase weaving that was similar to those with a .08 breath alcohol concentration, the legal limit in most states. For reference, 13.1 ug/L THC is more than twice the 5 ug/L numeric limit in Washington and Colorado.
http://time.com/3930541/marijuana-impact-driving/
ENT:
We review and evaluate the current literature on cannabis' effects on driving, highlighting the epidemiologic and experimental data. Epidemiologic data show that the risk of involvement in a motor vehicle accident (MVA) increases approximately 2-fold after cannabis smoking. The adjusted risk of driver culpability also increases substantially, particularly with increased blood THC concentrations. Studies that have used urine as the biological matrix have not shown an association between cannabis and crash risk. Experimental data show that drivers attempt to compensate by driving more slowly after smoking cannabis, but control deteriorates with increasing task complexity. Cannabis smoking increases lane weaving and impaired cognitive function. Critical-tracking tests, reaction times, divided-attention tasks, and lane-position variability all show cannabis-induced impairment. Despite purported tolerance in frequent smokers, complex tasks still show impairment. Combining cannabis with alcohol enhances impairment, especially lane weaving.
SUMMARY:
Differences in study designs frequently account for inconsistencies in results between studies. Participant-selection bias and confounding factors attenuate ostensible cannabis effects, but the association with MVA often retains significance. Evidence suggests recent smoking and/or blood THC concentrations 2-5 ng/mL are associated with substantial driving impairment, particularly in occasional smokers. Future cannabis-and-driving research should emphasize challenging tasks, such as divided attention, and include occasional and chronic daily cannabis smokers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23220273
If you are asking me whether i would rather get in the car with someone really stoned or really pissed i pick really stoned. however i dont really want to get in the car with either or have either on the road.