[Closed] If you were 18 again would you be going to uni?

I wouldn't go to university but then I didn't first time round.
I'd had enough of full time education, wanted to earn some cash and wanted to start getting my hands dirty with a trade. I took an apprenticeship which had block release at a polytechnic. I'd do something like that again. Wonderful series of life and work lessons which I felt prepared me for the work environment really well.

I'm a huge believer in apprenticeships and am currently encouraging my current business to expand their apprentice scheme. The benefits are obvious for both the company and for the apprentices.

[i]I love what I do for a living. Could I do it without a degree? Yes, in my opinion.

Would any employer give me the opportunity to do it without a degree? Or even give me an interview? No![/i]]

My dad ran a graphic design company in manchester for many years. He'd have given you an interview. He didn't have much time for graduates, reckoned most of them were rubbish compared to those who worked their way up.

For lots of people apprenticships are a good way forward, we are looking for some as we are doubling our in take this year.
It's great to see some of the youngster (i'm old) leading teams or departments, it only seems like 5 minutes since they were learning to pilot a brush or their totectors were all shiney.

My dad ran a graphic design company in manchester for many years. He'd have given you an interview. He didn't have much time for graduates, reckoned most of them were rubbish compared to those who worked their way up.

If only everyone were as enlightened as your dad fella. Unfortunately when I graduated, you could take it as read: no degree, no interview.

I chose my course though as it had a bias towards actual practical stuff (print production etc) as opposed to spending weeks at a time 'conceptualising' like they did on some other courses. So I know exactly where he was coming from on that score. I've met plenty of graphic design graduates who didn't have a clue how to prep a job for print, and a ridiculous notion of actual deadlines.

I think he had plans for me to take over the business.
Unfortunately I'm shit at graphic design.

Whereas I'm shit at everything other than it 😀

Yes,

And I'd try and have a lot more sex this time, possibly cut back on the beer a bit though

Yes, I can't imagine my life in anything else than a scientific pursuit.

"I really get sick of the CBI constantly bleating on about the government not providing the skilled employees they want, well * start taking some responsibility for training them you *!"

@MSP
Given some of the young people we have tried to employ over the last 10 years, the CBI chap could have been refering to reading an writing, an rithmatic (dance to the tune of a hickory stick, sorry Louis Jordan School Days) and taking basic instuction he could have a point.

I do understand your point though, many companies had until recently stopped training young people but then complained they could not get the staff. Short sighted in my view. The standard complaint is that "they leave when we have trained them", that's right some will but you'd be a mug to let a good one leave. If other companies are training also, some of there staff will come to you. Thats how it used to work, some people would change jobs to rivals or companies in connected industries but may come back in a more senior role with greater experiance.

As I have mentioned on another thread, since the changes to uni fee and the recession our apprentice applicants general standard has improved markedly.

Yes I wish I'd of done better at school and instead of doing a Btec national diploma in travel I'd of done my A levels done a degree and applied to do Medicine at Manchester or St Andrews.
But I went and did Travel, and then joined the Army for 5 years then came out and did my Nurse training and qualified two years ago.

I chose my course though as it had a bias towards actual practical stuff (print production etc) as opposed to spending weeks at a time 'conceptualising' like they did on some other courses. So I know exactly where he was coming from on that score. I've met plenty of graphic design graduates who didn't have a clue how to prep a job for print, and a ridiculous notion of actual deadlines.

I'd say if you're too dumb to realise the fees are a non-issue as they aren't going to cripple you with debt then you're too thick to go to Uni anyway.

that was bold fuzzy, there will those along to have ago shortly.

binners - Member
My dad ran a graphic design company in manchester for many years. He'd have given you an interview. He didn't have much time for graduates, reckoned most of them were rubbish compared to those who worked their way up.

If only everyone were as enlightened as your dad fella. Unfortunately when I graduated, you could take it as read: no degree, no interview.

A wise man you dad, Samuri.

When we were a full service agency we employed a few graduates straight from Uni, and they were a proper pain in the bum. Clearly the degree they had chosen had made them infallible and so confident in their own ability I spent most of the first year of their time with us apologising to clients and fixing their work in between smoothing the ruffled feathers of good staffers who they had wound up to the point they were humming like that kid at the end of Torchwood.

Yes, I would. but I'd do industrial design rather than the poorly re-marketed maths course that Mech Eng was.

And then I'd move to Italy or Germany giving the bird to the SLC.

Oh yes.

There's shagging [i]in lumps [/i]at them unis, [b]in lumps [/b]ah tell thee!

Least there was when I was there...

I really get sick of the CBI constantly bleating on about the government not providing the skilled employees they want, well * start taking some responsibility for training them you *!

That is the role of the CBI, to demand someone else (ie taxpayers) subsidise them so they can give even bigger bonuses to their CEOs. Investing in employees is not the done thing in industry, exploitation is where its at now.

Indeed. Whereas the documentary [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b038669g/Make_Me_a_German/ ]Make me a german[/url] the other week showed, they favour proper apprenticeships, and investing heavily in training their workforce. And R&D. And providing decent wages and conditions for their employees, in return for high productivity

But then what the **** do they know! 🙄

Probably not. But then again, I didn't go to Uni after school in the first place. I did my degree much later in life (27 when I started) and did it part time while I was working. It was bloody hard work especially as my kids were born during the latter stages of the course. I missed out on the "fun" side of going away which is something I probably regret a bit. However, I was earning throughout so had no fees and it also meant that when I did the degree I knew what I wanted to do and the reason I wanted to do it.

I agree with other posters though - this country's obsession with having a degree is rubbish. It seems like an incredibly lazy approach by recruiting departments of sifting applications that is just as likely to sift out the good candidates. I would say there are a lot of jobs that "require" a degree that simply do not. The push by the last government to guide 50% of school leavers into higher education was little more, IMHO, than a scheme to delay the flood of school leavers looking for a job. Soften the potential hit on the unemployment stats.

I also agree that the CBI and businesses need to get off their high horse of expecting the education system to provide staff already qualified to do the work they want. Foxtrot Oscar to that one. Businesses need to be prepared to invest in properly training and developing their staff. What the education system should be doing (certainly pre graduate level) is providing young adults with a good, rounded general education and a decent awareness of living. We don't appear to be doing too well at that at the moment sadly, which also seems to flow through to a number of graduates who don't really appear to have a clue about very much despite having a "degree".

And Fuzzy, I suspect there may be a significant number of people who would suggest that someone who makes such a sweeping generalisation over attitude to fees is probably a bit too thick to understand the concerns over fees. While it is true that a lot of students will never pay off their loans for most of them they will spend a significant proportion of their adult life paying off their uni fees and as their income increases so will the repayments. Sure, they may not be big in the grand scheme of things but that is a monthly outgoing that affects your disposable income in a way that those of my generation who didn't have fees to worry about did not have to experience or pay for.

My advice for my daughter is that I will happily support her if she believes in the degree she is doing, is fully committed to doing her very best and has the confidence of achieving at least a 2:1. If the answer to any of those is no then to be honest I don't think it will be worth it.

Indeed. Whereas the documentary Make me a german the other week showed, they favour proper apprenticeships, and investing heavily in training their workforce. And R&D. And providing decent wages and conditions for their employees, in return for high productivity

You're not going to be accepted in the Tory party spouting that kind on nonsense!

nope, waste of time and effort back then and to add a massive debt on top no thanks.

No unless i was doing a vocational degree or going to a Russell group uni

I very much doubt the premium for a degree will exist [ to any real extent]when 50% of the population have them and the debt level is quite high as well

i dont think they could persuade folk in their 30 or 40's to take a £75 k loan out to get a degree.

IMHO we need to return to free uni education and also cherry picking of the brightest.
We need to combine this with the german system as mentioned above

not a chance. i would take the apprenticeship i was offered instead and be a fully skilled toolmaker and then get the company to pay me to get a degree later

I was very lucky to finished before tuition fees etc.

I'd think twice nowadays. Three years of boozing, shagging, playing sport and studying something I was really interested in was great. Still good mates with a few people as well.

But the job market was different then. I had a marketable degree from a good university, so I did ok when it came to getting jobs that were nothing to do with what I studied. Jobs were like that then!

Now everything seems to be considered from an 'investment' point of view. This is probably good in some ways, but I do feel like I was one of the last of the 'golden age' of further education.

I blame Blair's policy of selling FE as a sort of right rather than privilege. You can't have it both ways. You either put FE on a pedestal and make it something 'special' or you devalue it by giving a degree to everyone. Sad but true.

Milk round employers just switched their entry requirement for graduate trainee position from '2:1 or better honours degree' to '2:1 or better honours degree FROM A REPUTABLE UNIVERSITY'. The definition of 'reputable' was theirs.

Degrees in (comparatively) trivial subjects should not have been sold to school leavers as something they should just do as some kind of rite of passage.

If I was 18 now, I'd seriously be considering a vocational course. My major problem was that I had no idea what I actually wanted to do as a career.

In my view, graduates who have gone into an industry should really have to earn their corn to stay in line with equivalent people who have been on, say, an apprenticeship.

There was just so much less pressure when I went through all this. That was purely down to luck. I worry about my kids and their education now, they will have much tougher choices to make than I did.

Plan 2 (post 2012) student loan repayments are lower. But the interest is 6.3%.

If I had a debt of £27k - lets assume 3 years on a £9k course, and then earned £25k upon finishing uni, I would pay £30 a month on Plan 2. On Plan 1 (pre 2012) the repayments are £65 a month.

So, on Plan 2 I would pay £360 off a year. 6.3% interest on £27k is £1710. So while I would have more disposable income than my pre-2012 counterparts, my student loan debt would, in fact, be getting bigger, not smaller. So effectively, I wouldn't be paying my loan debt off at all, and I would be stuck with it much longer if I couldn't pay down any of the actual loan itself.

So, if I never earned more than £25k 30 years, the Government would only recoup £10,800 from me.

I fail to see the financial sense in the Government's plan, surely if they want to charge for education, they should charge in such a way that it means the fees will actually get paid back?? I mean, given that they're saying that we haven't got any money and we can't afford to pay for students to go to university and all that stuff, because [s]Labour[/s] the bankers [s]spent it all on welfare[/s] gambled it all away and had to be bailed out....

Although I flunked my course, I think that the peers you meet at uni inspire you to achieve, they certainly did for me.

In terms of career I'm on a level with most of my old uni mates.

The danger with not going is getting stuck in some low skilled provincial job thats hard to get out off.

So would I go again, yes, would I fail again, probably..!

Binners, there are companies that provide "proper apprentiships" and that invest heavily in training in the UK. Some of us are bit to busy to go shouting about it. Some companies having been taking on apprentices for years, even in tough times. It's a no brainer really especially with an aging work force with particular skill sets then certain types knowledge taken for granted at all levels in a company.
Our view has always been "train our own".

And then I'd move to Italy or Germany giving the bird to the SLC.

WRONG! They tracked me down in bloody Canada, they'll track you down in Germany no probs 🙁 Not that I'm begrudging paying the loan back, I was just pissed off that I'd fallen for the 'you don't pay it back when you're abroad' myth.

They tracked me down in bloody Canada,

Really? I wonder how. So what happened as the repayment is done through PAYE in the UK?

I wonder what they could actually do to you in Canada though, other than write threatening letters. Ultimately I think (unless someone actually knows better)that they couldn't enforce a contract under English law through the Canadian legal system, and would need to bring some form of legal charge against you in the UK that would require extradition. Which would seem an unlikely although possible scenario.

I suppose they could mess up your residency visa by telling the Canadian authorities that your a wrong un. But even then there would have to be some sort of official channel for such information to be passed over.

hey couldn't enforce a contract under English law through the Canadian legal system

Loans contracts would normally be enforceable otherwise international banking wouldn't exist.

They tracked my sister down in New Zealand, and she has now paid hers off.

I graduated 2 years ago. I'd do it all again in a flash, regardless of the debt (but maybe without the grimy student housing)

Knowing what I know now- I'd defer for a year or two, I was a child in my first couple of years, I wasted a lot of the opportunity. And not just the course but the social stuff. I had a great time at uni but it could have been better. TBH I never even really new it was an option to delay, it didn't seem to be on our radar.

I work in uni recruitment now and with about 20% of the kids that come through my door, I just want to say "Go and get a job, or go backpacking, or [i]something[/i]. Come back when you're an actual person."

But maybe I'm wrong, I did most of my growing up at uni, maybe that was a good way to do it and I just regret the what-wasn't without appreciating what was.

Yes, I would definitely, for the experience and also for the type of job I'd want. I would probably delay it for a few years and go as a mature student. I am sure I would have got more out of it both intellectually and socially.

Yes absolutely . It's where I grew up. It's where I became educated.

There was some stuff about Laplace transforms but it really didn't matter compared with everything I learned .

Simple answer?

No. I had no problem pulling the opposite sex and get pissed two/three tines a week.

Saying that Jesters nightclub in Southampton- THEY approached YOU. It was like mounting a 50calibre machine gun on a truck and entering an unarmed urban area..

Do you not also think you would have grown up if you had entered the working world as well?

As many have already pointed out, and I agree, when graduates enter the workplace they fall some way behind those who have worked those years in maturity, and actually still have a lot of growing up to do in order to catch up.

Having been in the recruitment game for a fair time, and currently working for a big multinational organisation in their resourcing team, I can honestly say that unless you're doing a vocational degree, or get on one of the better grad schemes then it doesn't really give you an advantage over the course of your career.

Having said that I thoroughly enjoyed my time at uni, so would defo go back, but not because of the educational aspect.

Even if you're taking a purely financial / economic approach*, it is very hard to second guess what is and isn't a good idea. Who would have guessed in 1950 that being a pure mathematician or a logical philosopher would be potentially extremely lucrative 10 years later.

Also, I don't know what people mean by 'a vocational degree', but if you look at degrees and what people end up doing, it is hard to see the point in doing something with a 'career' attached - only something like 25% of law students become lawyers, many engineers don't become engineers, probably the majority of traditional science graduates (physics, biology, chemistry etc.) from good universities don't end up in science related jobs, teaching, some teaching jobs are massively hard to get (I understand primary is a nightmare) and then even once people are qualified a massive drop-out rate into other careers, and I'm sure the same is true of most courses. People just don't follow that perfect well defined career path all the time. I don't know the figures for medicine, but I know they limit numbers quite strongly, so I suspect if you complete the course you are very likely to stay in medicine, maybe that is the odd one out.

I would worry more about taking a too vocational course, that it might limit you, in that you don't learn much about general stuff, so if you can't get the exact job, you're screwed. I've certainly heard that said about 'computer games development' degrees, both people in industry and people teaching the courses have said to me that kids would be better off doing a computer science degree if they want to develop games.

Oh, and I would do it again, but then I have a job which I really couldn't do without a degree or two.

* Which you obviously shouldn't, you should think, what am I interested in, and study something you're interested in, and aim to do well at it. No point having a useless 3rd in something sensible when you would be excited by Medieval French enough to get a 1st in it.

I did biochemistry and I'm still a scientist 25 years later.

yes i would. Instead of going in my late 20's like i actually did

worked out great though so i would study the same subject - geology

Damn right. Where else could you get a pint for 90p!

Oh, I forgot that was in 1995

On a serious note I would as there is no way I would be earning the money I am now if I had not, but on the other side of the coin I have become a wage slave.

I think there needs to be as great deal more emphasis on apprenticeships as going to uni does not work for everyone, and it is a real shame when you hear of people saddling up with loads of debt to do a degree in photography only to graduate and end up working for minimum wage in a retail outlet.

I have always said that the Government in this country is short sighted. If they knew where they wanted to take the country then they could subsidise the degrees that will train the future generations for the jobs that will be required.

Some interesting views guys and prob 70% saying no which is somewhat surprising!

They're not 'enforcing a contract' as much as pointing out that penalty clauses have apparently always existed, and that I'd be getting hit with fines and high interest rates if I defaulted when I could legitimately be paying back. This wouldn't be such a problem if I never intended to return to the UK of course...

Wether or not they could prove what I was earning over in Canada was another question, although there was veiled references to a 'treaty' between the respective revenue services which made me suspect that Canada could tattle on me to the UK.

Hot_Fiat, they just tell you your monthly amount and set up a direct debit.

Yes but I wouldn't do the post graduate studies.