Well that’s you innit? I am certainly not surrounded by Tories.
Okay, so you still have much to learn. Why are you hanging around on this forum as you won't learn anything here?
Why aren’t you a Tory btw? You sound like a prime candidate!
What makes you say that?
Why aren’t you a Tory btw? You sound like a prime candidate!
Possibly because they don't stick exclusively to Tory echo-chambers?
The only way you can still be a Tory supporter is if you refuse to expose your opinions to challenge. You can do that by either keeping your mouth shut or making sure you only express your opinion in places where you know you will receive support.
Believe it or not, this place is absolutely not an echo chamber. You will be challenged on pretty much any opinion you express. Even people who agree with you will challenge your opinion.
It’s human nature.
It's human nature not to want to argue politics and instead find like-minded people whose political opinions you can agree with?
I'm not sure about that.
Why are you hanging around on this forum as you won’t learn anything here?
I have learnt loads...... the innermost thoughts of middle-class "liberal lefties"!
Amongst many things I have been genuinely astounded by the lack of tolerance. I had actually no idea that I was such a liberal until I came here.
What makes you say that?
Well you appear to be in an environment where everyone else is a Tory so I wondered why you didn't turn out that way - why you appear to be the black sheep.
Amongst many things I have been genuinely astounded by the lack of tolerance.
I suspect I know the answer to this, but the lack of tolerance towards whom?
Well you appear to be in an environment where everyone else is a Tory so I wondered why you didn’t turn out that way – why you appear to be the black sheep.
Always have been. I did come from a working class background but even my very working class dad voted Thatcher which I thought was wrong even when I was 11 and my arguments with tory voters started at that point!
People I mixed with at school were left leaning until I went to a Grammar school to do A levels where I got my first taste of tory ****ers and have been in their presence since then really as lucked into a well paid job and nice area to live which are generally the preserve of privileged (but don't tell them that) tories.
Wow. You even knew it all at 11. Remarkable.
Certainly angry and unhappy about what tories have done yes.
That's genuinely interesting kerley. I was brought up in a left-wing (Labour) and very anti-fascist environment. I went much further to left rejecting social-democracy but I didn't start to develop my own independent veiws until I was about 14/15. It was a highly political environment though and no one was allowed to talk when the news was on. I first started reading the Guardian when I was 10 years old, basically because it was there and I wanted to understand why adults were so interested in politics/current affairs.
Are we really getting into an ‘I saw politics first!’ Argument?
There it is: the ANGER of the left.
Why would one (no matter what your leaning) not be angry at the current chaos and rudderless government.
This is what scares me about
the leftpoliticians in general and why they need to be resisted. Always with the need to control, censor, silence and stoke division.
Projection is the current approach by the shower in power now and it seems to be catching.
It’s not what I’m driving at, People don’t leave forums ‘just’ becasue they’ve been called troll, or whatever, people leave becasue they can sense that the weight of the forum doesn’t align with their politics or beliefs so just naturally go somewhere where it’s more like them. It’s human nature.
Again isn't this a good thing?
Each forum evolves around a certain set of shared interests / beliefs and attracts / keeps people who are happy with that.
Eg I live in a very middle class, Labour voting street. However, I have one neighbour, who's pro-Brexit, pro-Tory, racist and I have no interest in ever hearing anything he has to say about anything. IMO he's a grade A ****. I really don't want my life inc forums to have anything to do with people like that just 'for balance'.
Are we really getting into an ‘I saw politics first!’ Argument?
I don't think so. Why, do you want to make a bid for the title?
Edit: I don't approve of lowering the voting age to 16 partly because I believe children need a period to fully develop their political views. At 16, despite being brought up in a far more political environment than any of my friends, I was unsure what my veiws really were - I was still exploring and trying to come to solid conclusions.
I first started reading the Guardian when I was 10 years old,
LOL so you're really in touch with the general population too. Think I was reading Doomlord in the Eagle around 10yo.
I couldn’t live like that.
Agreed.
Just done my lunchtime hour on Zwift and this battle is still raging. I'm knackered and feel rather chilled.
That thread includes valuable contributions from people who claimed to have been banned from everywhere… including… a caravanning forum!
Isn’t there a rule that if you go thru your day meeting loads of aholes then it’s probably you.
TBH isn’t the first rule of caravan club not to talk about caravan club and the wild swinging lifestyle that comes with it. So easy to get a ban.
I first started reading the Guardian when I was 10 years old,
LOL so you’re really in touch with the general population too.
I think I was yes, why do you think I might not have been - because we had the Guardian delivered? I went to school, was in a scout troop, had plenty of friends my own age, lived in a very working class area.
My dad's strong interest in politics and current affairs didn't make me any less in touch with the general population, it's strange that you apparently think that it might have.
Edit: And btw I didn't start reading the Eagle until I was a bit older - probably about 12. It wasn't delivered to the house.
I've always assumed PH has a bit of a Right of centre tilt, it's mainly a Car forum so I'm assuming there's a built in anti-green/anti-woke bias, coupled with the fact that "Car-blokes" often seem to consider Clarkson some sort of God... But that's just my own biased assumption, based on a couple of infrequent browsings when looking for other info on cars and stuff. Happy to be told it's a hot bed of insightful and broad political thought, I'll still probably not frequent it as I don't have a massive lob on for cars, hence I have a bicycle forum membership...
This is what scares me about the left in general and why they need to be resisted. Always with the need to control, censor, silence and stoke division.
Sure...
Those poor right-wingers completely unable to communicate their ideas and opinions effectively, Just outright silenced and constantly having their freedom of speech stifled... Remind me again, which party currently runs the country? And who owns the biggest (by revenue) commercial news media group in the UK?
What 'Scares' me about the Right is their willingness to distort facts, stoke conspiracy theories, clutch their pearls at invented injustices or just outright lie in order to prop up their own miscellaneous agendas. Simultaneously playing at victimhood, while trying to dismantle any organisation that offers them a challenge or doesn't fall in line and uncritically parrot their propaganda.
What a weird thread. People talking about places they don't like but still visit. Why go there at all? Maybe PH and STW aren't as different as we all might think.
I think it's hilarious though that this thread is admirably demonstrating exactly what PH were claiming. They must be laughing their absolute tits off over there.
Sigh. Might as well join in.
Is there. What people and what comments are they afraid to make and what are they afraid of?
This is the "cancel culture" argument in different pants, isn't it. "I'm not an unpopular arse, I'm being cancelled!" Snowflakes.
Well that’s a pretty intolerant position to take, not to mention arrogant. If you don’t listen to arguments counter to your own viewpoint how do you learn?
I'm fairly certain that I don't need to hear any further counterpoints to decide whether I want to become a racist homophobe (for instance). Would you say that's arrogant?
You will be challenged on pretty much any opinion you express. Even people who agree with you will challenge your opinion.
No you won't. 😁
Edit: I don’t approve of lowering the voting age to 16 partly because I believe children need a period to fully develop their political views.
"Partly"? Why else?
I really don’t want my life inc forums to have anything to do with people like that just ‘for balance’.
I totally agree. After all there's a reason I don't read the Daily Mail.
As for any intolerance shown towards those with Tory-esque views, we might have to wait a while to find out but it'd be interesting to know whether similar levels of intolerance would be shown towards Labour supporters were they to have run the country into the ground over the best part of 15 years.
Edit: I don’t approve of lowering the voting age to 16 partly because I believe children need a period to fully develop their political views.
This implies that people over the age of 16 have more developed political views, which I fear is untrue. They just have less time left to live with the consequences of their decisions!
"Partly”? Why else?
Also general lack of maturity and the fact that they only need to wait 24 months and then they are likely to have about 50 years of voting in front of them.
Why the need to rush.....unless you think they might have changed their veiws 2 years later?
After all there’s a reason I don’t read the Daily Mail.
The reason I sometimes read the Daily Mail is because I am interested in what they have to say. The fact that I am highly unlikely to agree with them is quite irrelevant.
I remember the first time I was in Middlesbrough with gout.
People talking about places they don’t like but still visit.
...like Middlesbrough?
The reason I sometimes read the Daily Mail is because I am interested in what they have to say. The fact that I am highly unlikely to agree with them is quite irrelevant.
Yeah fair enough. This might be a bit head in the sand but I made a decision a number of years ago to cut out spending time on things that made me angry (precipitated by Twitter arguments with people advocating against Cycleway 9 in west London).
Succession only just about makes the cut sometimes tbh.
Also general lack of maturity
I don't know what you mean by this. They can't vote until they've stopped playing with dolls and Lego?
and the fact that they only need to wait 24 months and then they are likely to have about 50 years of voting in front of them.
Why not raise the age to 21 then? or 30? People are living longer on average, if we're setting the voting age at time of expected death then extrapolating backwards 50 years, that's going to keep rising.
Why the need to rush…..unless you think they might have changed their veiws 2 years later?
Well, you said yourself, you weren't sure at 16. If you don't think they might've changed their views two years later then what's the issue with allowing them to vote at 16?
Apologies if it's just me being dense, but none of those arguments make any sense.
Apologies if it’s just me being dense, but none of those arguments make any sense.
Well you will be relieved to learn that it's okay not to agree with me 🙂
Those poor right-wingers completely unable to communicate their ideas and opinions effectively, Just outright silenced and constantly having their freedom of speech stifled…
Haven't you been paying attention? The poor dears are the majority, but they're being drowned out by a minority of vocal lefties because something about the site owners who obvs control all the content on the forum.
Why the need to rush
I see it as a point of principal. We are happy to extract tax from a 16 year old's wages if they get a job and we are even ok as a society with starting them in basic training to learn how to shoot someone if they sign up for the army - It seems a bit weird to not let them actually have a vote.
Well you will be relieved to learn that it’s okay not to agree with me 🙂
Yes, imagine my relief.
It's not that I don't agree with you (in this case). Rather, I don't understand. Young people shouldn't be allowed to vote because they're young?
...I have no interest in ever hearing anything he has to say about anything. IMO he’s a grade A ****. I really don’t want my life inc forums to have anything to do with people like that just ‘for balance’.
Racistist.
No you won’t.
Oh yes you will!
I've been practising wheelies recently, not only that but I've just made myself a bunnyhop bar. Will I have to leave STW?
I stay here for the exciting threads like this one.
/popcorn
Why do you need to have a rigid set of beliefs before you can vote? Or any beliefs at all for that matter?
Why do you need to have a rigid set of beliefs before you can vote? Or any beliefs at all for that matter?
Brexit shows us that people with beliefs (alone) shouldn't vote.
BoatyMcBoatface shows us that no one can really be trusted to vote, but that we have a sense of humour.
My personal belief is that we should leave national government up to a king/dictator, and make it a punishable offence to complain.
Local government should be handled by the local Monster Raving Loony candidate.
Everyone's happy.
(Except some of the permagrumps on here, but they're in jail/on the wall so who cares)
I see it as a point of principal. We are happy to extract tax from a 16 year old’s wages if they get a job and we are even ok as a society with starting them in basic training to learn how to shoot someone if they sign up for the army – It seems a bit weird to not let them actually have a vote.
That's a really good point.
There's a huge discrepancy in this country between various legal rights at various ages. You can have sex at 16 but you have to wait two more years before you can watch someone else do it. You can enlist in the army at 16 (and the UK is an outlier here), can't buy alcohol until you're 18 and most shops have a 'Challenge 21' policy to buy cigarettes.
Up until as recently as last year you could get married at 16, it's 18 now. How times have changed there. By the letter of the law you could be planning your second child by the time you're allowed to marry, I'm amazed the god-fearing types haven't been up in arms about that. (I wonder how long it'll be before the age of sexual consent is raised?)
At 16 you're deemed old enough to have babies, but deemed not old enough to vote. That's ****ed up.
I’ve just made myself a bunnyhop bar.
Oh, she'll like that.
We are happy to extract tax from a 16 year old’s wages if they get a job and we are even ok as a society with starting them in basic training to learn how to shoot someone
You say that as if there is universal agreement on those issues. I doubt that many 16 year olds actually pay income tax on their wages, and you are not allowed to shoot at anyone until you are at least 18 years old.
Personally I reckon there is possibly a case for full-time education or training (with perhaps work experience) until the age of 18. And also bringing the UK in line with other comparable countries and not allow under 18 year olds to join the armed forces.
At 16 you’re deemed old enough to have babies, but deemed not old enough to vote. That’s ****ed up.
I think you might be mixing up society recognising that there is little that can be done about 16 year olds getting pregnant, and, society believing that most 16 year olds are mature enough to start a family - ime they generally need support, from adults.
The only way you can still be a Tory supporter is if you refuse to expose your opinions to challenge. You can do that by either keeping your mouth shut or making sure you only express your opinion in places where you know you will receive support.
I seem to remember a post from a few years ago from someone asking why people voted Tory. He went on say he would just like to hear from people who voted Conservative because he wanted insight into their way of thinking.
Guess what? Cue loads of posts, mostly from the usual suspects, saying that they would never vote Tory, because they are all racist bastards, had blood on their hands, were selfish & intolerant bigots etc etc. Funnily enough, we never did get to hear from anyone who admitted to voting Conservative or get an idea of why they themselves thought that doing so was a good idea.
The lack of self-awareness from the people who did post was astonishing.
That’s a really good point.
There’s a huge discrepancy in this country between various legal rights at various ages. You can have sex at 16 but you have to wait two more years before you can watch someone else do it. You can enlist in the army at 16 (and the UK is an outlier here), can’t buy alcohol until you’re 18 and most shops have a ‘Challenge 21’ policy to buy cigarettes.
Up until as recently as last year you could get married at 16, it’s 18 now. How times have changed there. By the letter of the law you could be planning your second child by the time you’re allowed to marry, I’m amazed the god-fearing types haven’t been up in arms about that. (I wonder how long it’ll be before the age of sexual consent is raised?)
At 16 you’re deemed old enough to have babies, but deemed not old enough to vote. That’s ****ed up
OTOH we now have the situation in Scotland where under 25s are not being sentenced to jail beacuse 'scientific evidence' has shown that their brains are not fully developed leading to them being impulsive, risk taking & generally unable to properly assess the full consequences of their behaviour.
I was thinking more ‘completely’ than just your political views. Every time you posts it’s filled with bitterness.
I couldn’t live like that.
Lighten up, just the way it comes across and my 'style' of writing I guess. I couldn't live with having to buy a new bike every 10 minutes in a fruitless search for whatever you are missing in life but we are all different (clearly that was deliberately bitter and in jest)
They can’t vote until they’ve stopped playing with dolls and Lego?
Whut? I've been voting 30+ years and still play with lego.
I doubt that many 16 year olds actually pay income tax on their wages
You don't know many 16 year olds?
Anyone who leaves work and gets a FT job these days will probably be paying some small amount of income tax.
I know i was, on occasion, from about 14/15. (And almost all the time once i passed 16 and started working more hours).
Another post i noticed.
Yep. When I got into mountain biking again I joined and expected it to be all ‘edgy cool people’, bit like how most people into MTB seemed to be back in the 90’s. How wrong I was!
He can't have been paying attention. Many of the "edgy cool people" in 90's MTB were essentially try hard dullards, or just a little bit boring once you got them away from the photoshoots.
Much like the edgy cool people we have in MTBing today i suppose. 5% cool, 95% trying to be and making a right ucking mess of it.
