There are several threads that mention rising energy prices, cost of living and the environmental affects of western lifestyles.
So, assuming you're already double glazed and insulated and were lucky enough to have some capital to spend, what's the best way to do it?
Solar panels? Battery storage charged up for those cheap 4 hours 1230-0430. A modern emersion heater to supplement the combi boiler?
Book marked with interest.
A modern emersion heater to supplement the combi boiler?
Not that unless you are powering it from solar.
After the price cap rise in April electricity is still 4x more expensive than gas per Kwh. Gas 7p leccy 28p.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/what-is-the-energy-price-cap/
I'm currently thinking now may be the time to retire my 32+ year old Baxi boiler for a more efficient modern boiler and better controls.
whats frustrating is the rise in standing charges. the cost of delivery of electricity and gas hasn't gone up, yet my daily standing charge has doubled overnight.
i borrowed a infrared camera from work and it's interesting viewing. found one bit cold patch upstairs where clearly there is a area of insulation that is missing or been moved. about a metre square was ~3deg cooler than the rest of the ceiling. you can also 'see' a cold draft coming in under the front door and where it goes.
Double glazing already sorted, just finishing off insulating under the suspended floors, cavity walls done and loft 300mm thick. Fortunately the previous owners fitted a very good gch system with big rads, large bore pipe and modern boiler so the house heats fast and maintains easily, changed the controller over to the vailant v smart which gives much greater control over the old style controllers.
4.2kWh solar install went up in 2018 and it's been well worth it, Mrs f is at home during the day so we capitalise on the generation throughout the day, we use about 1/3 of our generation and the rest gets sold back to the grid. Looked at batteries at the time but they were expensive for fairly small capacity, fast forward to now and we could make them work. Seriously considering 10kWh+ storage and switching to an e7 style tariff for charging over winter in night rates. We're already generating enough by the end of Feb to fill the batteries during the day, I'd estimate we'd use another 1/3 to 1/2 of our generation with battery storage.
Heating wise a log burner (possibly boiler) is going in in spring. Had one in the previous house and it made a huge dent in our heating bill (solid walls, 19th century terrace, cost a fortune to heat with gas and got cold very quickly) hadn't intended to fit one in the new house as it's a lot more efficient and actually cheaper to heat even though it's more than twice the size, but with gas prices heading through 10p pkWh and access to free logs it's a case of either be poor, cold or fit a burner.
If gas prices continue to rise then the log boiler will be coupled up to the central heating system and the gas used for hot water only, after that if it remains high over the coming years then a cylinder will be going in for hot water which will be heated from an immersion heater in the summer and the log boiler in the winter and cut my reliance on gas completely.
I've also been looking at split air to air heat pumps for air conditioning and heat output to run purely off solar generation when it's available. My only issue with them is the noise of the external heat exchanger, we live in a very quiet area and the drone from them could get irritating.
So just to preface this a bit, I've been a solar design engineer and more recently project manager for commercial solar systems for just over 4 years now. I'm obviously biased in saying that if you have a viable rooftop for solar then there are certainly benefits, however I'd take a careful approach to it and certainly do a quick scan of the area surrounding your house. Any tall trees or other shading concerns from almost directly east, following round to the south, to almost directly west could cause shading of the modules, and you only need a very small section of a panel's cells shaded (around 10% depending on if the panels are oriented landscape or portrait) to stop that panel producing. For panels next to each other, if on the same string, shading of 1-2 modules can knock off an entire string's generation.
We are looking to replace our old double glazing with new triple glazed. Plus sadly it looks like the original part of the house can't take cavity wall insulation so might have to go external insulation.
We looked at solar but that plus a battery would have had about a 15 year payback which just isn't worth it considering we don't seem to use a huge amount of electric and gas anyway.
Battery storage charged up for those cheap 4 hours 1230-0430.
The only problem with this is that if they stop cheap electricity at those hours (which is possible as more EVs get charged overnight) then the battery becomes less of a good idea.
PV is good regardless of what anyone says. We've had it on two houses since 2012 and I wouldn't be without it - in fact I'm looking to expand it quite a lot at one place - but you need to use the generation sensibly.
We’re already generating enough by the end of Feb to fill the batteries during the day
@flicker - so how much are you generating/day at that point and are you diverting to an immersion?
however I’d take a careful approach to it and certainly do a quick scan of the area surrounding your house. Any tall trees or other shading concerns from almost directly east, following round to the south, to almost directly west could cause shading of the modules, and you only need a very small section of a panel’s cells shaded (around 10% depending on if the panels are oriented landscape or portrait) to stop that panel producing. For panels next to each other, if on the same string, shading of 1-2 modules can knock off an entire string’s generation.
We went for a solaredge system with micro inverters for exactly this reason, the shading only affects the one panel not the rest in the string.
Thick curtains with thermal lining.
For living areas you can have double curtains with one muslin and one heavy thermal fabric, so you can leave the muslin closed during the day when it's cold. Put one over your front door with a portiere rack (that opens with the door). You can also rig up a temporary curtain pole at the bottom of the stairs if you have them, this makes an incredible difference.
Cheap and very effective. And not exclusive to the other ideas.
Also reduce your thermostat and the runtimes gradually. I put ours down to about 45 mins in the morning, then I realised that there's not a lot of point in burning for 45 mins straight when everyone then goes out, so I've halved that time and put the temperature down another degree. Has made no real difference to comfort.
Wear a jumper.
Close interior doors. Our living room is heated very effectively by the TV and two sedentary adults when the door is closed.
We went for a solaredge system with micro inverters for exactly this reason, the shading only affects the one panel not the rest in the string.
Sensible but does make it quite expensive in that case compared to just using a single string inverter.
I've got a lot of spare space and would like to ground mount a further 4Kw if I can get approval from the DNO.
At that point a battery does seem like a viable option.... if I could find the money!
I put 4kwh solar on the roof
February production nigh on mirrored July's for me @300kwh.
The only 2 months I'd need leccy from grid to top up is Nov/Dec based on this year.
How ever the cost and lead time on batteries is prohibitive. - I was quoted 10k when I had the solar installed .... That's now risen to 15k - for a power wall.
Other options are the giv energy 8.2kwh but still the guts of 10 grand for them fitted and they just don't on paper look as good as the Tesla units.
My old man's got 10kwh solar half sun tracking half fixed.
Air-air heat pump heating the BnB and twin thermodynamic tanks + heat pump for the pool.
They essentially use no energy for all that during the day.
They are looking at giv energy units for theirs but they have plenty space in the basement for them
We did briefly consider an air source heat pump but the existing CH is micro bore and the sheltered side of the house away from the neighbours is the side that has the lounge and our bedroom which are the two rooms we spend most time in (we like our peace and quiet).
The domestic 4.7kW limit on solar, does that only apply if you export it? What happens if you use it all/store in in batteries or emersion heaters?
these really are useful. spot the cat...
And from the outside. My neighbours plastic front door and windows look horrible but it’s far more insulated than my very expensive accoya front door and windows..
@flicker – so how much are you generating/day at that point and are you diverting to an immersion?
A good day towards the end of Feb will see around 16kWh, it starts to ramp up rapidly from early March as we head into summer to around 30kWh.
Sadly no hot water cylinder as we have a combi.
Has anyone looked at installing a wind turbine either on the roof, or standing at the bottom of the garden) I like the idea, but only if they are 99.9% reliable.
5kW solar array installed last year and probably another 2.75 kW going in this year. Powerwall on order. Going by Trail_rat's post I'm glad I ordered it last year for £8k. I also have a Zappi EV fast charger which can divert excess solar to the car automatically. Considering replacing the gas boiler with a heat pump but as my house is traditional construction although double glazed with cavity and loft insulation I'm worried a heat pump may not be up to the job. I also share flicker's concerns re noise.
Good thread, as I've been thinking the same recently.
Stupid question on solar though - do they need to go on the roof? Ours faces SE to the front and the back gets quite a lot of shading until late in the afternoon. But the bottom of the garden gets the sun all day, all year with very little shade. So is there an issue installing solar panels at ground level?
My old man’s got 10kwh solar half sun tracking half fixed.
How do you get tracking? I have a large south facing wall, ideally I'd have a motor on it that would raise and lower the panels throughout the year rather than the day.
Has anyone looked at installing a wind turbine
They were available in B&Q for a while, years ago, but they weren't very good. You can only fit a small one, which means they need lots of wind and they have to spin quite fast which makes lots of noise and vibration.
Very interested in this. We’ve just had 20+ year old double glazing replaced with a mix of double and triple glazing and that’s definitely made a difference.
I need to underfloor insulate our suspended ground floor - but keep putting it off as I suspect it’s going to be a hateful job in a 2ft crawl space!
A full reroof is on the cards, with insulation added at the same time. I’d really like to take the opportunity to get integrated solar panels installed but roof space is fairly limited - suspect we’d get maybe 5 panels up there, but we do have a 45 degree south facing roof so seems a shame not to. Ideally I’d like a SolarEdge inverter system to counter shading and a Tesla Powerwall - although at the moment getting a solar company to return a message/call after an enquiry seems to be a major challenge. Suspect everyone is having the same thoughts regarding solar at the moment!
Could anyone recommend a solar company that would cover the Yorkshire area?
“ So is there an issue installing solar panels at ground level”
I see plenty of solar farms in, errr, farmers fields, so I’d say fundamentally, no, you can have them at ground level.
Whether that’s different domestically, however, I don’t know
Whether that’s different domestically, however, I don’t know
I imagine space & shade is a major consideration for domestic.
Wish I'd gone solar when I bought the place 9yrs ago but don't intend on staying here.. But the gutters need doing as well...
I need to underfloor insulate our suspended ground floor – but keep putting it off as I suspect it’s going to be a hateful job in a 2ft crawl space!
That's about the same height crawl space I have under our floors. I pulled up the carpet and underlay in a corner of each room and used a multitool to cut out a small access hatch and posted myself and the insulation rolls through 😀
Noticeable difference to room temperatures and comfort within 24 hrs. I did my boys' rooms first as they're on the north face of the house and are coldest throughout the year, the rooms now retain heat far longer than they used to and are far more comfortable than they were prior.
I used 100mm loft insulation (4" beams) and a breathable membrane stapled under the beams to support it all. I'm considering adding another 100mm at right angles at some point this year.
Well worth doing.
Could anyone recommend a solar company that would cover the Yorkshire area?
If they’re getting a surge in demand already I suspect a project of that scale might be a bit of an ask.
The first task should always be to gather data. Otherwise you're stabbing in the dark a lot.
Smart meters and heating controls can allow you to build a really good picture about how your behaviour and your house affects your consumption and potentially make significant savings with very little capital investment.
Thermal imaging cameras are relatively cheap these days and are vital for checking if your insulation is actually doing its job (builders are notoriously bad at installing it) and finding cold spots.
I managed to halve our gas consumption from ~34,000kWh/year when we moved in to. ~17,500kWh now. That was through a forced boiler replacement (old one died after a few months) and a proper heating control system (not just the timer and boiler stay).
We managed to reduce our electricity bills (£ not the amount of kWh used) by switching to an EV tariff (a few months before getting an EV) and shifting some load (dishwasher, washing machine) to the night time. That requires no investment really. I was confident it would save us money as I had the granular data from my smart meter so I could model it myself in a spreadsheet.
Next up is a solar PV + battery system. Our roof is less than ideal in size and orientation, meaning the payback period is a bit long but I got a bonus this year so I'm not worried about that.
We're also looking at a comprehensive retrofit of the house (c1890s solid wall, conservation area) with internal wall insulation, window upgrades and draught proofing.
@flicker That’s really good to know, thanks. We already have some access hatches (small ones!) that I’ve poked my head down but have seen an adult human broadband engineer fit down so it’s doable! I was thinking of using sheep wool to make the job a bit less miserable. Rigid boards obviously not an option as the access hatches are too small, can’t imaging using fibreglass matting would be anything but horrible. I was wondering how best to fix it in place - could you let me know what breathable membrane you used please?
@swanny853 Thankfully the roof replacement isn’t because it’s leaking - so no particular rush. I’m more interested in getting a solar company and a roofer lined up to work together and get one the waiting list - in the knowledge that it may be well into next year before I get it done.
I just had a qoogle and it seems my loft insulation isn't thick enough, has anyone used loft stilts and chipboard flooring to raise the level of the floor so that proper thickness insulation can be fitted?
I certainly can, it was this one
https://www.wickes.co.uk/Easy-Trim-Master-Integrated-Breathable-Membrane-112gSM-50-x-1m/p/144022
You can use plastic netting but I'd read that the membrane prevents heat being pulled through the insulation on windy days (it's surprising how strong the air flow is under the house)
It's a fairly miserable job whatever insulation you use 😀
Old clothes, mask and beanie hat with built in torch and off you go
Superb. Thanks.
Solar installation here (Glasgow). 12x385W panels coupled with a 3.65kw inverter. South facing, not shaded, 45 degrees. Total cost with solar immersion boost 5k. The payback just doesn’t seem to work with added battery storage, but I dare say in the future it may. For us, wife working from home, I’m on shifts means we utilise the majority of energy during the day. Habits have to change though. Washing/dishwasher/showers/hairdryer etc during the day. February this year produced nearly 300kwh, which, for Glasgow is pretty impressive. Smart export guarantee at 5p/kWh (no FIT). We’ve exported 120kw in Feb.
One thing you need to be careful of is DNO regulations & MCS guarantee. I opted to stay safe and limit the inverter to the lowest maximum without having the DNO to survey the system. Potentially anything exceeding 3.65kw export could require a survey at the householders cost. Also, the MCS guarantee is needed to get the SEG. Although most smart inverters have system settings to change the export amount.
So far this month, the solar immersion boost has allowed us to turn off the hot water completely from the gas boiler. Doesn’t work if there’s if everyone has showers at night etc though. This is a massive cost saving that generally doesn’t feature in solar payback calculations.
I have a suspended floor made from concrete. I don't know what's under it, but I know there's some kind of void because it sounds hollow and I watched the surrounding houses being built. They were filled at least temporarily with huge bags which are apparently full of polystyrene beads. Not sure if they are still down there.
Anyway the ground floor is always cold, so I'm wondering if there's anything I can do about it. Insulating over the top would probably be the best option but there's only so much height you could lose.
I'm in a 80's built 3 bed semi, noticeable difference between the upstairs temp and downstairs (downstairs much warmer). The loft is insulated but I think this is to 100mm not 300mm, the windows are the original units, so double glazed but a poor seal around them, I am not sure if I lose a lot of height through the windows and loft with less then 300mm insulation or if my radiators upstairs are undersized and dont produce enough heat.
Dont have the cash to replace the windows, but have just ordered some foam tape stuff to see if I can get a better seal when the windows are shut. Need to remember to pop to B&Q to get some loft insulation to top up to 300mm. But, not sure how I can tel whether I suffer from heat loss or lack of heat, thinking of getting a man with a thermal camera in to see if it could be identified what was going on before dropping a wedge of cash on new radiators.
Our living room is heated very effectively by the TV and two sedentary adults when the door is closed.
Netflix and chill?
Not sure on this for us. Loft and walls insulated, new combi boiler just fitted, windows and doors could be better insulated, but will that pay for itself in the 8-10 years we have left here? Solar probably wouldn't be effective in that time.
Maybe if I replaced the wife with one who doesn't insist on having the upstairs windows open 24/7/365?
100mm loft insulation is nothing. I had 300mm and put another 300 down, it made a difference to heat and a big difference to noise.
Netflix and chill?
Yes, and it gets warm and cosy 🙂
All you heavy insulators - are you not having any problems with condensation? We live in a small bungalow that is fairly well insulated and we started having a LOT of problems with it. We now have to run a dehumidifier for a couple of hours in the evening. Cooking and showering times.
Embrace discomfort.
You’ll save a fortune and you’ll probably be healthier... 🤩
All you heavy insulators – are you not having any problems with condensation? We live in a small bungalow that is fairly well insulated and we started having a LOT of problems with it. We now have to run a dehumidifier for a couple of hours in the evening. Cooking and showering times.
No, but I've had 20+ years experience dealing with cold and damp in an old 19th century terrace with solid walls whilst bringing up kids, it was miserable trying to combat it and a big learning curve 🙂
High throughput extraction in bathrooms and kitchen, don't dry washing on the radiators around the house.
Fortunately we have quite a large ensuite upstairs so all the laundry is dried up there over winter with the extractor fan running and the door shut, the kids have grown up and one has moved out so that cuts the laundry down quite a bit too.
The best thing i did was to spend hours draft proofing. Made a huge difference - not just the obvious suspects but gaps under skirting, holes for radiator pipes etc etc.
Close interior doors. Our living room is heated very effectively by the TV and two sedentary adults when the door is closed.
Modern efficient TVs don't give off nearly as much heat 😉
Maybe it's not the TV generating heat #netflixandchill
I've got 300mm insulation in the loft, except for the central third that has been boarded out. Is this likely to be a big heat loser for me? I could clear out the loft and insulate over the top of the boards.
My front door is a bit draughty, but with a full height glass panel either side a replacement of it all is likely to be around £2k, which I'd rather spend on some roller electric garage doors!
The front north east corner of the house is remarkably cold. I wonder whether corners were cut with the cavity insultation, but it might just be its orientation in the house. I could probably work that out with a thermal imagining camera? Any advice on easiest way to borrow / hire / buy one?
I've turned out thermostat down to 12 degrees at night, from 14. No one has complained yet.
We work from home and my wife puts the heating on during the day. Seems like we are wasting money heating upstairs whilst we are only in one room downstairs. Perhaps smart TRV's would help?
Need to put some sort of draft exclusion around the cat flap.
I fitted fairly big inline extractor fans in the bathrooms when I refitted them, but its recently dawned on me that chucking all that nice warm inside air outside must have a heating penalty. I might turn the timers down. You can certainly feel the kitchen drop in temperature when the extractor is on full chat.
I wonder if any of the collective wonder on here have any experience of using thermal store/heat batteries in Lieu of a traditional hot water cylinder?
The space savings in our small spare room could be significant but I wonder about the running costs?
To be fair I’ve always absolutely hated hot water cylinders. But maybe I’ve only had rubbish ones. Caveat no gas here where I live so it’s electric only. Solar possibly soon if I can get the cash.
For example this kind of unit?
https://sunflowltd.co.uk/sunamp/
I’ve turned out thermostat down to 12 degrees at night, from 14. No one has complained yet.
You have the heating on at night? To be honest your house shouldn't dip that far down anyway, so no wonder no one has noticed 👍
