Looking to build a new streaming system, most likely to be based around a Naim NAIT XS3 or Supernait 3……
What have you got and what do you recommend….
Looking for advice, inspiration and real world experiences….
TIA
I use a Cambridge Audio CXNv2 with Dynadio LYD 48's and Dynaudio 18s sub very happy with the setup, I'm running Roon/Tidal and my own 2tb hd, if you have an existing hifi why not use a Wim mini/pro and save money over the Naim stuff, or the Eversolo kit looks very good, if I was buying now I think id go for the Eversolo A6 as it can do Parametric EQ and has a SND greater than the overpriced (my opinion) Naim kit
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I have a Naim Nait 5, a Topping DAC and stream through a Wiim Pro.
I am very happy with it and the Wiim app is excellent, they seem to tweak it and the firmware almost weekly.
The Wiim also has a Parametric EQ.
Alos, not all streaming services are equal. I was using Spotify and then I switch to an Amazon music subscription, which was slightly cheaper and sounded way way better.
And don't forget, you want a decent cable to connect the streamer to the DAC.
Try one of these they bring the music alive. https://www.futureshop.co.uk/nordost-odin-2-75ohm-digital-audio-cable
I was using Spotify
Spotify is only 320kbps,
I have Naim stuff driving Dalis but just using a basic Alexa bit of kit for Amazon prime and Spotify. How much difference would one of those Wim devices make?
I have Naim stuff driving Dalis but just using a basic Alexa bit of kit for Amazon prime and Spotify. How much difference would one of those Wim devices make?
Not much as Spotify is pretty lossey.
However, if you changed to Amazon or Tidal you will notice a difference.
Don't forget to upgrade your plug fuse. £4200 fuse.
I am using an AirPort Express to stream - either from phone or Mac. It seems to deliver good enough quality via a DAC.
What would the WIM offer me over that?
thanks
What would the WIM offer me over that?
In theory it can stream a higher quality signal to the DAC, 24-bit and/or 192 kHz, rather than 16-bit and 44.1 kHz.
I don't think most people would be able to tell the difference.
The Wiimm has a very good app and more connection options.
(Ought to have mentioned I have a Cambridge Audio EVO150 routed into Dali Opticon 2 mk2 in the snug.
I use Qobuz top tier subscription..
Naim system shall be for our main living space unless I can get a route for cabling from the EVOs second speaker output)
How much difference would one of those Wim devices make?
Very little in listing enjoyment I imagine,
I am using an AirPort Express to stream – either from phone or Mac. It seems to deliver good enough quality via a DAC.
What would the WIM offer me over that?
Same as above, some configurations of airport express top out at 16/44.1khz, if you have a lot of hi res files it will downsample. FWIW hi res is a load of bollocks (my opinion...again), what matters is how the music was mastered in the first place.
How big is the room? Try an old Nait 2 shoebox with a pair of Neat speakers (they are all voiced for Naim), Wiim and DAC of your choice.
I have a set of Neat Iotas that play remarkably well in a large room when backed up by a decent Sub. I’m running dual opposed design.
I hear at the Naim factory they use the same speaker with an old Unitiqute.
Room is 3.8m x 5.9m.
KEF R5 META or PMC Prodigy 5s currently shortlisted
Erin recently tested the KEF R5 meta using his klippel near field scanner (£100k of measurement equipment) below, he’s really impressed. I’d stay well clear of the PMC’s, very poor directivity and messy frequency response
"I hear at the Naim factory they use the same speaker with an old Unitiqute."
This definitely isn't true. Nothing against Neat though, good speakers.
For the OP, I'd just recommend going to a good dealer with that kind of budget and listen to a number of options. Some will let you home demo kit. That's a decent sized room to fill.
If you like Naim and you want a streaming system the surely you should be looking at a Uniti?
Personally I have never heard a PMC setup that I particularly liked, but as has been said, you really ought to go and try before you buy. Probably would be worth listening to something like the Kef LS60 as I would imagine they could be very good (not heard them myself).
I'm biased so you can choose to ignore*. My next system will be a dCS Lina DAC into a pair of active ATC's, yet to be decided. Super simple and small footprint.
(*I work at dCS)
My next system will be a dCS Lina DAC
Care to send me a Bartok Apex with headphone dac so I can see if there’s any difference in sound quality between my setup above?, I’m firmly of the belief that dac topology and engineering is a settled subject as every dac can now do sinad of 100db+, but if you’d like to dissuade me of my opinion then I await my Bartok Apex
😉
Good stuff ojom
Now we’re getting esoterically interesting!
I’m open to all opinions!
I have heard the ARCAM RADIA A25 and ST streamer, NAIM XS3 + ND5 XS2 stream the CYRUS CLASSIC combo and CYRUS XR combo range and the NAIM was best presentation so far….
Help - anyone got a paper bag?
I’m on a pair of PMC GB1i on the end of a decent old Musical Fidelity A1008 amp, and a BluSound Node/Qobuz source. I’ve never loved the speakers, can’t put my finger on why but sound a bit rigid, but they’ve been in a room with a wooden floor and shit acoustics for 10 years.
We’re redoing the room, and putting carpet down amongst other things, so have started looking at speakers again, and I’m going back to a compact standmount. Listened to some Dali Minuets last week, they were really sweet sounding and well worth a listen (Richer Sounds have them too, so easy to find a dealer).
It’s either that or sell the amp and CD player and have a really simple set up of the Node (maybe through a Benchmark DAC) and a set of AE1 Actives - which I’ve also spend time listening to and loved.
Are active speakers actually that good / true “HiFi” worthiness?
I think like passive speakers, there are good and bad examples of both. Nothing about the AE1s on paper looks remarkable, but they sound lovely - definitely worth an audition. Wired up to a Node or Wiim, it’s a very simple, good value and enjoyable listen.
Years and years ago (er, about 30) I bought some Mission 760i speakers - I think they were £150 new. I’m not sure I’ve had a more musical set of speakers since despite throwing a fair bit at it. I wired them up about six months again after they’d been sitting in the loft for about 25 years and they still sound awesome.
I think I just like little standmounts, and try not to let the price get in the way of expectations. Absolutely not saying anybody on this thread is doing that, but I’ve definitely been guilty of that over the years.
edit: sorry, just reread the thread and realised I’d missed your post further down about the Opticons, which renders my post a bit redundant. 🙂
The Opticons are a joy..
Im also a fan of stand mounts.
I had Celestion DL2s back in the dat hooked to a Cyrus One. Simple and effective….
Naim NDX for me. Good value second hand these days and paired with an Apple AirPort Express allows streaming from Apple Music. Playback from local network attached storage sounds best though.
I’m using some Naim n-Sat speakers which are also great value if you can find them second hand. Getting harder to find though.
I mean, you've got an all in one option, or separate DAC / AMP / STREAMER.
I don't think you'd go far wrong with a Wiim AMP to be perfectly honest. For 300 quid that's everything nailed.
The Wiim platform is really rather good. The connection is solid. I'm using a Mini via wifi and it's very quick to play something via Spotify connect, or any of the 100's of internet radio streams. The EQ is very useable. The Android software is impressive. Certainly the next step up would be something like a Blusound PowerNode which has a slightly slicker UI but in terms of functionality isn't massively more than what Wiim offers but the PowerNode is probably twice the price of the Wiim Amp.
My current second system has an old Marantz PM66 SE amp, Wiim Mini and an SMSL SU-1 DAC playing through Q Acoustics 3030i. An older Sony CD/SACD/BLUE RAY player connected via coax to the SMSL DAC. It just works and I like how it sounds.
Are active speakers actually that good / true “HiFi” worthiness?
Absolutely, yes. When you've got big players such as Kef and Klipsch as home hifi options and a myriad powered studio monitors, powered speakers are not as cack as they once were.
These are all worth a listen if you want to try an interesting set of active speakers:
Kii 7: https://kiiseven.com/
D&D 8c: https://dutchdutch.com/collections/8c-speaker
Buchardt A10: https://buchardtaudio.com/collections/active-speakers/products/anniversary-10
If you're round London the guys at KJwest have got a decent sized listening room with Naim some interesting speakers like Sonus Faber that could also pair well with your proposed setup.
Of the Wiim pro users, how long does it take to change song from button click to play? Any skipping or hiccups with Qobuz?
Help – anyone got a paper bag?
Amen! And slimline salad dressing!
Of the Wiim pro users, how long does it take to change song from button click to play? Any skipping or hiccups with Qobuz?
Can only comment on the Mini through wifi but it's pretty darn quick. Like, I can change sources on my phone and the track changes before I have a second to adjust the volume. I'd imagine this would be even faster with an ethernet connection (but we're talking fractions of seconds here). Also this is using Spotify connect at max settings so maybe the larger file sizes of some of the Qobuz files might take a wikkle bit longer to buffer and stream.
Mixed dj style albums play with no gap I can hear.
Of the Wiim pro users, how long does it take to change song from button click to play? Any skipping or hiccups with Qobuz?
Don't know about Qobuz but it's pretty seamless on Amazon and Spotify.
Gbchl, just to clarify, you think with Amazon Music (I use that and Spotify) I'd notice the difference with a Wiim connection?
Are active speakers actually that good / true “HiFi” worthiness?
Considering every single studio in the world will use active speakers I'd hazard a guess at yes, The idea that Studio/active monitors are not "Hi-FI" is an oft quoted response (not for music enjoyment) by hifi manufacturers wanting to sell you fancy veneers etc and a highly coloured inaccurate sound at an inflated price with dealer markup, fancy veneers, paid off HiFi publications (What Hi-Fi being one), expensive advertising, terrible frequency response and sound reproduction, studio monitors (good ones anyway) are designed to have as flat a frequency response as possible for accurate reproduction of the source material which will be shown in their literature.
The problem is somafunk that a lot of home users don't like a flat frequency response, they tend to complain about a lack of bass and to be fair studios tend to install (properly matched) subs too.
But well designed actives are better generally than their passive counterparts partly due to the cross-overs being before the power amps and then because the individual amps can be optimised for the particular drive unit.
Speaking of drive units I think a 3 way with a good mid range driver generally sound better than a 2 way with a "compromise" mid/bass driver and I don't think I would bother with active for a 2 way.
Looking to build a new streaming system, most likely to be based around a Naim NAIT XS3 or Supernait 3……
What have you got and what do you recommend…. Looking for advice, inspiration and real world experiences….
TIA
That's some very nice kit. But also very expensive. Personally, I would always audition such equipment before committing to spending so much money. NAIM is amongst the best you can get in Hi-fi, without spending ridiculous sums on some very esoteric and probably pointless equipment. One of the main issues with high end kit is that it can be far more demanding than less expensive products. My own set up is an Audiolab 8000 pre/power combo, into some truly wonderful Focal Aria speakers (Focal are owned by the same company that now owns NAIM), fed by a Bluesound Node streamer/DAC, and a Marantz CD67 SE. This, I feel, is the limit of what I'd want in my home, which has less than perfect acoustics. And this is a very important consideration; would the benefits of spending thousands really pay off, if your home acoustics are sub-optimal? One of the main advantages of high end hi-fi is that the dynamic range can be much greater. But if your acoustics are cancelling that out, and colouring the sound too much, then that can be lost, and you end up wasting money. The average home, with soft furnishing and all sorts of surfaces to affect the sound, is often not the best listening environment. The higher you go, then the more this matters, as does speaker placement etc, if you really want the best out of your gear. I considered a NAIM set up, but decided that it would be trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And of course; if you're much over 30, then many of the real benefits of really nice equipment will probably be wasted on you as well. So it's all about compromise; the best thing to do is to trial some equipment, at home if you can, and choose what suits your listening environment the best. Not always easy, but a decent hi-fi shop should be able to help you out.
FWIW hi res is a load of bollocks (my opinion…again), what matters is how the music was mastered in the first place.<br />
This is very pertinent. Some early CD versions of classic albums were very poorly mastered, so often sounded no better or even worse than vinyl. More modern digital recordings are significantly better though, and it really shows on decent kit. When I first got the Focals, I was quite surprised with just how poor some of my music sounded, as the better speakers exposed the weaknesses in the mastering/encoding. That itself is something to consider. Up to a certain point (with equipment), 320kbps MP3 might sound ok, but then step up from that level, and you start to be able to hear the difference. Whilst the subtleties might not be noticeable on a £500 system, go to £2000 and higher, and you really do start to notice them. Compressing the dynamic range (as lower end equipment will do), and a lot of music sounds fine. See also my point re listening environment acoustics. So in short; if you're only going to listen to MP3s, then don't waste loads of money on a high-end system.
I am using an AirPort Express to stream – either from phone or Mac. It seems to deliver good enough quality via a DAC.
What would the WIM offer me over that?
The DAC in the AE is quite old, so newer technology may well be better. I was using an AE on my old system, but upgraded to the Bluesound Node, and there is a subtle yet noticeable difference. Improved DR, better separation, better stereo image etc. <br /><br /><br />
Are active speakers actually that good / true “HiFi” worthiness?
'It depends'. Brands like Kef, Acoustic Energy and Klipsch make some excellent 'active' speakers. And there's a lot of mediocrity. I think where active speaker excel, is in small studio set ups, as monitors. When space is restricted, not having a separate amp etc is a bonus. Plus, they can be easily moved around and set up anywhere. For simple music listening though, I'd personally go for passive speakers and a good amp; active versions tend to cost quite a premium over the passive versions. And are the built-in amplifiers as good as well designed, standalone amps? I'm not so sure. Active speakers are excellent for environments where separate amplifier equipment isn't possible or ideal though. <br /><br />I heard some KEF LS50s just last weekend, and they are superb for a small room. Truly excellent. The 'wireless' versions are £800 more though, I don't think that's such good value for money.
But well designed actives are better generally than their passive counterparts
I'd disagree based on personal experience. Plus actives need to have their amplification gubbins shielded from the speaker parts, which involves extra engineering and costs. I suppose with larger speakers, it's possible to have excellent amps inside the cabinets, but on smaller speakers, I'd say separates are still better. I've yet to hear any active speakers that sound as good as the better passives.
Interesting somafunk on the active monitors and their flat frequency response !
There are some impressive bargains online of equipment I’ve already demo’d, and eBay is a smorgasbord of HiFi bargains too….
An immaculate pair of Spendor A5 for £790 for example !
The search continues..
Active studio monitors are generally flat and shouldn't colour the sound unnecessarily.
Active home hifi should sound fine in a home setting. Room / location depending.
ALL studio monitors, active or not, should sound as 'neutral' as possible. So in many ways, they are actually the 'best' speakers. But there's worlds of difference between cheap ones and very expensive ones. Studio monitors are meant to be listened to a fairly close quarters, often in quite small environments. So a pair of the aforementioned KEF LS-50s can sound thunderous in a small room. But they struggle to fill a larger room with sound.
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So your room is just a little smaller than my living room. Those are both very nice speakers, but consider that larger speakers might be a little overkill for your listening environment. In terms of amplification, I found 20W RMS a little lacking, although certain amp/speaker combos might offer greater sensitivity and therefore loudness. Always good to have power in reserve, but again it does matter what speakers you have, as some have greater sensitivity than others. A friend has a similar amplifier to mine, yet has to turn it up a lot more to achieve any significant volume. He is using some Bose satellite/sub speaker combo, and whilst this is ok for TV viewing, there is a 'hole' in the sound with the imbalance between the speakers. For reference, the volume dial goes from say 7 o'clock to 5. On my system, it is set at 9 o'clock. On his, he has to go to at least 12 o'clock to get any appreciable volume, and up to 3 o'clock to match mine at even 10 o'clock. At 12 o'clock, my entire house is starting to really shake. This is with 'just' 60Wpc RMS (into 8 Ohms). So clearly, my system is a lot more efficient. But you have to of course consider other residents of your home and your neighbours. I've seen people make the mistake of buying systems that really need cranking up a lot to get the best out of them, and this isn't good if you live in an area with other people around you. Smaller, more sensitive speakers can be better than larger ones. But these do tend to cost lots (easier to increase speaker sensitivity by making them larger and adding drivers). Big floorstanders might dominate your room more than you or your partner really like. So sometimes, less is more. For TV use, I have a pair of little Castle speakers, powered by an ancient 20Wpc amplifier. This is perfect as we're sitting closer to the sound anyway. The speakers are really exquisite, speech and dialogue is so clear. But they can't do 'big' sound for Dub, DnB etc type listening. Horses for courses.
I was using Spotify to the same DAC and amp, through an AptxHD bluetooth connection from my phone, I noticed a difference when I switched to the Wiim.
Then I switched from Spotify to Amazon Music and noticed a difference on the HD and UHD tracks.
For reference, the volume dial goes from say 7 o’clock to 5. On my system, it is set at 9 o’clock. On his, he has to go to at least 12 o’clock to get any appreciable volume, and up to 3 o’clock to match mine at even 10 o’clock. At 12 o’clock, my entire house is starting to really shake. This is with ‘just’ 60Wpc RMS (into 8 Ohms).
Your friend may have a similar amplifier but the gain structure may be different.
The volume knob position merely adjusts gain which is how much the incoming signal voltage is amplified before going to speakers/headphones and does not correlate to how much voltage or current the amp has available and tells you nothing about how much power the amplifier has or how much headroom you have left.
The position on your volume knob to get to your listening level is dependent on the incoming source voltage and how much the potentiometer attached to the volume knob is attenuating the signal, and the designed gain of the amplifier - you cannot use volume knob position to determine how powerful an amplifier is.
An amplifier that is 1000w may need the volume knob turned right up to reach a suitable listening volume if it is a low gain design, alternatively an amplifier that is 100w which is a high gain design will thus need a lower volume knob position.
And finally the relationship between volume position vs loudness as expressed in db listening level is logarithmic, not linear as many believe, some amplifiers have low gain/high gain switching - a misconception often believed is that this makes it more powerful which is incorrect, gain is merely a multiplication factor and will not change the maximum voltage or current that the amp can supply.
(one of the few times I paid attention/geeked out whilst studying electronic/electrical engineering at uni was building and designing amplifier modules for our raves in the 90’s)
I’m looking at amplification that offers high current output to give absolute grip over the speakers..
I’m swithering between the NAIM XS3 , CYRUS I7XR or the I9XR
I like the dynamics of them all……
Again, I am happy and open to persuasion and real world experience….
Nice position to be in, getting a system of such quality. Just a thought re speakers, for that kind of money you could also look at ATC scm40 or 35s s/h, I’ve always lusted after a pair of those, few on eBay now @2-3k£.
Same sort of money as the kef/pmc’s you listed. Atc mid driver is pretty legendary in the studio world, very revealing indeed.
They’ll hold their value too probably better than most brands I reckon- their more studio oriented designs certainly don’t depreciate much.
Although the big, top end PMC’s are very popular in mastering setups, their (relatively) more affordable stuff seems to get quite a lot of mixed reactions.
Another option if you want flat (and active) would be Neumann kh150. Not the best looking speaker but pretty compact, very revealing and huge spl. The dsp room alignment stuff is apparently very effective. They seem to be generating a lot of praise, sounding far bigger than their size.
Just my 2p, those would be the first I’d look at in your position I think. Myself I have a Nad integrated and set of Tannoy dual concentrics which I love, obviously a big step down from where you’re at but nice all the same.
Agree with @crab re. the ATC SCM40, largely because of that "legendary" mid range driver. I did once try out ATC SCM50As and they are utterly sublime and very expensive, but "luckily" far too imposing in my living room. So I have ATC SCM20s (only 2 way) which are working rather nicely with a pair of old Harbeth studio subs and driven by AVI 150W monoblocs. I keep telling myself to get some 40s instead.
If only one of the bike parks had a decent listening room. Sounds like there is enough in this thread alone to get a decent post ride bake-off going.
