[Closed] Helping support UK industry- why it's worth it.

Two landmarks of UK creativity:

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I definitely prefer my bridges to be made in Britain.

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Why don't we have a thread celebrating things which the UK actually does really well rather than harking back to some imaginary golden age? Media, music, high quality engineering, consultancy services, art, finance to name a few.

I bet on the Taiwanese version of STW world someone is having a moan about the terrible margins on low end widgets and how Taiwan should develop a high value dynamic economy...

Are those men really small or the bike really big?

Whilst I support your sentiment, why shouldn't we progress over time away from something we used to be good at into new things e.g. services, computing, software etc etc? Competitive advantage changes over time and to remain wealthy we have to adapt and stay nimble.

+ UK consumers are mired in debt (before interest rates have gone up, which they will do) and have barely had a payrise in 8 years - a lot of people can't afford the higher UK prices that come from our relatively higher wages.

Don't forget that when you buy from a foreign manufacturer you're often providing someone with a job who was previously in poverty/subsistence living. It's a pretty good way of helping to equalise global wealth, rather than keeping it all for ourselves.

Watchmaking,

automotive engineering,

graphic design,

and bicycle frame manufacture.

If I were in the market for an exquisitely made, very expensive but slightly ugly frame with wheels too big, I'd definitely be buying UK!

Why don't we have a thread celebrating things which the UK actually does really well

That's precisely what this thread is about though. That 'golden age' wasn't imaginary, either. There is very little high quality engineering and manufacturing left in this country. Consultancy services and finance aren't creating anything physical. Music is of debatable 'quality' 🙂

Aren't CK headsets made in the US?

Watchmaking,
The swiss do it better
automotive engineering,
The germans do it better
graphic design,
Erm.
and bicycle frame manufacture.

They were all used as examples of things we appreciate, when they are done to a very high standard.

I do a bit of woodwork. The UK used to produce some of the finest tools in the world. Now, several other countries (including China) make tools to the same or very similar design, but we don't. The US, Japan, Sweden and Germany in particular, make superb tools of all types.

I am actually struggling to come up with any examples of anything I own which is uniquely UK designed and made. Some B+W speakers maybe, but even my amplifier is Danish. And our 2 Dysons were made in the far East, I think.

Consultancy services and finance aren't creating anything physica

That's the beauty of it. Massively high margins, i.e. very productive and a big export market. See how many commodity widgets you need to make and sell to make the same money.

The music might not be to your taste but the rest of the world buys it.

There is very little high quality engineering and manufacturing

We are the 8th biggest manufacturer in the world - the general trend of manufacturing output is that of consistent growth.

There is very little high quality engineering and manufacturing

Does this belong in the 'bullshit which becomes true through repetition' thread?

Take an example. Is its better that the UK is one of the top manufacturers of wood whittling tools or one of the top manufacturers of specialist high integrity instrumentation systems? I think your focussing on consumer goods and ignoring the rest of the economy.

There is very little [s]high quality[/s] engineering and manufacturing

Surely it's a Tory manifesto pledge?

Does this belong in the 'bullshit which becomes true through repetition' thread?

It is pure distilled bullshit of the highest order and oft repeated. So yes.

Whilst I support your sentiment, why shouldn't we progress over time away from something we used to be good at into new things e.g. services, computing, software etc etc? Competitive advantage changes over time and to remain wealthy we have to adapt and stay nimble.

But I'm taking specifically about things we used to do extremely well, but are now done much better by other countries. Who are well able to make them profitably. Why aren't we still able to do the same?

Don't forget that when you buy from a foreign manufacturer you're often providing someone with a job who was previously in poverty/subsistence living. It's a pretty good way of helping to equalise global wealth, rather than keeping it all for ourselves.

But we're abandoning stuff we were really good at, and losing skills. And becoming a nation of consumers, rather than producers. Eventually, this will lead to a situation where we can only afford cheap crap from abroad, and not enjoy anything decen, unless we learn how to make it ourselves again.

When was the last time you bought a decent bit of furniture? And where was it made?

Yep, it's complete BS that we don't do manufacturing here and that it's dying. Some manufacturing is unquestionably dying - the cheap, simple stuff that they do much better (cost and volume) in China, etc. The more value added stuff is what we're great at and that sector is doing fine generally.

Why aren't we still able to do the same?

See above.

As for engineering, it's even less true.

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That Aston is a perfect example of why. It's absolutely beautifully made, is high quality and so expensive that only a fraction of a percentage of people can afford one.

Does this belong in the 'bullshit which becomes true through repetition' thread?

+1

Vladimir Putin is currently conducting an experiment along the lines you're[sp] thinking.

That's the beauty of it. Massively high margins, i.e. very productive and a big export market.

And as soon as companies work out that it's cheaper to train and employ staff in a country with much lower labour costs, (and invariably poor human rights records), they can simply move virtually overnight. It took many decades for our manufacturing industries to run down to the level they are at now. You can't just buy an industry like that, and set it up overnight.

We are the 8th biggest manufacturer in the world - the general tread of manufacturing output is that of consistent growth.

Surely this is a line that belongs in the 'bullshit' thread? Manufacturers of what, exactly? Have a look around you; how much stuff is actually made here?

Take an example. Is its better that the UK is one of the top manufacturers of wood whittling tools or one of the top manufacturers of specialist high integrity instrumentation systems?

Are you trying to prove that one or two exceptions prove the rule? How many people actually use 'specialist high integrity instrumentation systems'? How many people ride bicycles? Where are those bicycles being manufactured?

Yep, it's complete BS that we don't do manufacturing here and that it's dying.

Skills are disappearing. How many people in this country can actually make something? Or even fix anything? We're generally pretty useless at most things.

Why aren't we still able to do the same?

Economies of scale plus expensive energy and workforce costs.

There is very little high quality engineering

You know whenever I hear this sort of stuff I take it as a compliment as the engineering involved in the industry I work in is massive in a way that wold make the Victorians shake their heads is disbelief. The fact that we've managed to do is in such as way that you don't even notice it demonstrates what a fantastic job we've done.

Are you trying to prove that one or two exceptions prove the rule? How many people actually use 'specialist high integrity instrumentation systems'? How many people ride bicycles? Where are those bicycles being manufactured?

Every single industrial installation on earth. The UK is a big player in the market. A big industrial installation will have tens of millions of pounds of such equipment which needs constant attention. It's very lucrative.

We're generally pretty useless at most things.

Are we? Or is that just some made up crap.

bartyp, are you struggling with the concept of volume vs revenue or something? Just because many consumer goods are no longer made here, doesn't mean that lower volume, high cost items aren't and as such, the 8th place ranking stands. Yes, it may be aircraft engines rather than your mtb groupset but it's manufacturing nonetheless.

Where we (and other rich countries) have lost manufacturing is of the simple stuff - eg nuts, bolts, seals, etc. What we still do here is the complex stuff that also needs a lot of engineering in the first place and expertise to manufacture or at least assemble. And then to maintain if we're going to talk about higher tech stuff.

We'll never compete in manufacturing bog standard consumer goods that are (relatively) very simple to design and manufacture.

I bet we could design and manufacture a ****ing brilliant toilet seat.

There's plenty of high quality, high tech manufacturing in the UK. Just not of general everyday items, because it's cheaper and quicker to make it elsewhere. And very often the china imports are designed here but made elsewhere.

We have a pretty hefty space and aerospace industry, given that we have no launch sites.
We have a pretty hefty automotive industry which does turn out some well designed, well made hardware.

We don't make tat and cheap low-volume hardware very well, because our designers/makers are too good to be wasted.

Suggesting our "making" days are behind us is a disservice to the hundreds of thousands of engineers, technicians and designers out there doing kick-ass projects that you just haven't heard of because generally they're exported to places that can't do what we do.

The bike market is over-filled with both large scale manufacturers and niche manufacturers as it is.

Coding?

I'm not in IT but I understand we have some of the best software / game developers in the world.

Candy Crush is British I think..

We're generally pretty useless at most things.

Surely this is a line that belongs in the 'bullshit' thread? Manufacturers of what, exactly? Have a look around you; how much stuff is actually made here?

Loads, just look at the official statistics, it is just other sectors have grown quicker and productivity is up so far fewer people are employed in it.

Skills are disappearing.

Unskilled/low skilled jobs in manufacturing have disappeared, the jobs that remain are much higher skilled.

King who developed Candy Crush were Swedish - now also based in Dublin. So no, not British.

Video games [i]and[/i] headsets? I'm impressed.

I am actually struggling to come up with any examples of anything I own which is uniquely UK designed and made.

Exposure lights, Lumicycle lights, cats.

a lot of people can't afford the higher UK prices that come from our relatively higher wages.

I am actually struggling to come up with any examples of anything I own which is uniquely UK designed and made.

You are not a whisky drinker then.

Yes.

Just like you can't afford an Aston Martin (well, maybe you can, who knows, but most people can't)

We could make bike components exclusively here but they'd cost a load more and make a standard bike a load more expensive. Other than an (arguably) misplaced sense of patriotism, why would you do that?

it's important to support our own country's industries

Only if they are worth supporting.

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." - Adam Smith

In the same way UK manufacturers shouldn't expect us to buy their stuff just because it's UK made. They should expect us to buy it because it's better designed, better made and uses better materials. Sure it's going to be more expensive as UK workers demand a much higher wage than those in other countries. If the superior quality justifies the high price tag then we'll still buy it and so will people in other countries.

The other things that seems to be ignored here is that if you buy a Far Eastern made but U.K. designed, U.K. marketed bike (i.e. Genesis or Cotic) from a U.K. retailer you're putting almost as much money into the U.K. economy as spending the same sum on a handbuilt frame.

And let's also remember that living in the midst of a global high volume production hub is hardly lavender and roses.

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As the Chinese people are rapidly finding out.

So, as far as bikes are concerned we've outsourced the nasty, polluting low profit stages of the supply chain and kept the nice clean, well paid stages. Some would say that's bloody clever.

I understand that this us a vast over simplification of the situation but I thought I'd put forward another perspective.

4 things

manufacturing in the UK is a fraction of what it was even when the last labour government came to power never mind before thatcher

For 20 years we have as a country fetishised business and financial services above 'the real economy' when its arguable if it is socially useful

manufacturing keeps getting more and more productive so it employs less and less people for the same output which means that manufacturing is a far less prominent in many peoples lives than it used to be. You are less likely to be in manufacturing or have a mate or their dad in manufacturing than you used to.

If you take the long view china are trying to shift to consumer economy and be less export led, India will follow etc. and they will be less able to compete with us on cost meaning that manufacturing could reshore back to western countries and of those western countries how well placed does the uk want to make itself compared to germany or USA etc.

Are we? Or is that just some made up crap.

So, let's see the last piece of furniture/item of clothing you made. Or indeed, the last piece of anything you made yourself.

I think many of you are spectacularly missing the point here. Which is that we have gone from being a nation of producers, to a nation of consumers. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do other things as well, just that we should perhaps re-engage with the things we, as a nation, used to be really good at. Using some relatively very small industries as examples of why things are wonderful is disingenuous. Using Aston Martin as an example ignores the hundreds of vehicle manufacturers this country used to have. Where have they all gone?

This isn't a discussion about the economy, it's about disappearing skills. UK is the 8th largest manufacturer globally? It was once the biggest. And it was 6th just 20 years ago. And it's likely to slip out of the top 10 in the next 15 or so.

Loads, just look at the official statistics

I'm looking at the reality, not 'statistics'. Again, how much stuff that you currently have around you, is made here? The desk you're sitting at, the chair you're sitting on. The reality is, that less and less of the stuff we actually use in our lives, is made here in the UK. That's a fact.

What we still do here is the complex stuff that also needs a lot of engineering in the first place and expertise to manufacture or at least assemble. And then to maintain if we're going to talk about higher tech stuff.

Other nations are catching up and overtaking us. We won't be doing this for much longer, without a serious re-think about how we actually develop those skills necessarily. It's all well and good saying 'oh but we're really really good at making very low-volume specialist stuff', but if we lose the skills to make the simple things, then we won't have a foundation from which to learn the more complex stuff.

We used to make bicycles. Lots and lots of bicycles. We don't any more. Now, China makes lots and lots of bicycles. And we buy those bicycles from them. And that money helps them to invest in making better and better bicycles.

Getting it yet?

our company is a uk manufacturer, we try to buy from other uk manufacturers. We sell here and all over the world. I'm not bothered who owns uk companies as long as there staff are being paid and paying tax in the uk. We also try and avoid companies that don't see the need to pay taxes in the uk. Our start point is always uk first as we want those taxes paid and those hospitals open and my friends and neighbours in work. It does not mean that we don't purchase from outside the uk but its local first for us.

Using Aston Martin as an example ignores the hundreds of vehicle manufacturers this country used to have. Where have they all gone?

Swindon, Sunderland and Coventry.

So, let's see the last piece of furniture/item of clothing you made. Or indeed, the last piece of anything you made yourself.

Not my trade but let's look back the the things I last repaired.

Lights switch, daughter's bike, PS4 controller, Log burner, a friend's daughter's iPad. I could go on.

I could do things I've repaired in my trade but it's not manufacturing so doesn't count.