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Put it another way, if you (assuming generic mechanical degree) and a C&G level 3 refrigeration engineer walked in fresh from training/degree he'd have wiped the floor with you. The C&G course full time (not day release) takes/took 2 years. Mech degree 4 years full time; how much of that 4 years is dedicated purely to refrigeration?
Don't get me wrong, designers are very clever people and high value. obviously the refrigeration engineer is of less value as he only knows refrigeration (albeit very well).
The term engineer does not belong exclusively to designers and never will do (in the UK at least).
If I had known back then what I know now my title would have been armed robber.
Id have knocked a bank over for a few quid (enough to make the news) and then sat on it for the time I was in the nick, would have been out at 25 is with a shedload of cash (not that I would have hid the cash in a shed)
another way of looking at it i suppose .
Spoony - as my inside man to this group... are you atypical?
German manufacturing retains a global reputation for quality, precision, and "high value" products. That quality is a product of all levels of German industry - the stereotypical obsession with detail. From the boardroom to the shop floor - not just Engineers, but engineers, fitters, etc, etc.
I'd argue it was more to do with protectionism and a desire to keep itself at arms length form the EU. German stuff isn't neciceraly any better made, they just created a whole raft of standards to adhere to which required companies to be certified, which made it harder for foreign companies to export to Germany, thus the impression that the Germans were better as they had a bit of paper from their mum saying so.
What's the problem again? You think the general public cannot distinguish between Brunel and a riveter? Or someone who fixes the bog? One's work usually speaks for itself.
how much of that 4 years is dedicated purely to refrigeration?
Very little I'd suspect, afterall all a refrigeration system is a compressor, condenser, boiler, and some interconnecting pipework. It's really not very complicated thermodynamically.
The thing is though the one who has spent will understand how compressor and heat exchangers actually work and will (should) be able to apply that knoledge to other problems and won't be limited to refrigeration systems. That is the key difference.
b**locks. Most engineers I worked with could turn their hands to most (mechanical) disciplines and quite literally, could design stuff 'on the back of a fag packet'. One guy machined a 4 valve head for a BSA B50 from scratch with a few sketches ..... I could go on. No-one I knew had degrees. IMHO there are too many people with degrees in all sorts of subjects who are actally qualified to do nowt useful at all. They expect an easy ride an a good salary because they've been to an ex-polytechnic and can pass exams .... grrrrrrr. Sorry. I'll have a glass of water and sit down now.
German manufacturing retains a global reputation for quality, precision, and "high value" products. That quality is a product of all levels of German industry - the stereotypical obsession with detail. From the boardroom to the shop floor - not just Engineers, but engineers, fitters, etc, etc.
Aye until the guy on the shop floor hears said german company bringing in the jobs has decided to shut the plant and the jobs may not be there anymore ,it doesnt matter how good the design or engineering or "precision" of the whole operation is, when the guy on the production line can no longer be arsed as he feels undervalued.
if you (assuming generic mechanical degree) and a C&G level 3 refrigeration engineer walked in fresh from training/degree he'd have wiped the floor with you
The C&G course full time (not day release) takes/took 2 years. Mech degree 4 years full time; how much of that 4 years is dedicated purely to refrigeration?
That's really not the point...
A new graduate - yes even a BEng graduate is going to be green behind the ears, and you're right, would be almost useless next to a skilled technician.
But that isn't what is being discussed. A new engineering graduate is a very long way from being a Chartered Engineer - as posted above, about 5 years of hard work progressing through closely scrutinised professional training and early career development
German stuff isn't neciceraly any better made
Exactly - which is why I stated [u]reputation[/u]. We still do high quality added value products in the UK, and Rolls Royce is a very, very good example, but I think it is fair to say that we have lost the renown for quality that we used to have.
I also stressed that the values required for this "reputation" extends from the boardroom to the shop floor.
I've been working with some German / Swiss clients recently. Engineers are present in roles of responsibilitiy right through the company(ies). In the UK board level roles are predominantly filled by lawyers, accountants and sales / marketing types.....
Most engineers I worked with could turn their hands to most (mechanical) disciplines and quite literally, could design stuff 'on the back of a fag packet'. One guy machined a 4 valve head for a BSA B50 from scratch with a few sketches ..... I could go on
Interesting, could they design a turbine or compressor on the back of a fag packet? How about doing the thremodynamics to ensure that the selected material won't catestrophically fail? Somehow I doubt it.
[i]It is thus proposed that the title 'Engineer' is protected legally, like 'Doctor' or 'Architect'.[/i]
Doctor? Like Cilla Black and Simon Cowell?
My last three job titles were 'Architect' despite having absolutely no building experience whatsoever.
I'm a real engineer because I have a Tech Eng diploma and I'm a member of an official engineering body but I couldn't care less if someone wants to call themselves an engineer. Fill your boots. You can have any title you please, you'll never *be one*.
Exactly - which is why I stated reputation. We still do high quality added value products in the UK, and Rolls Royce is a very, very good example, but I think it is fair to say that we have lost the renown for quality that we used to have.I also stressed that the values required for this "reputation" extends from the boardroom to the shop floor.
I've been working with some German / Swiss clients recently. Engineers are present in roles of responsibilitiy right through the company(ies). In the UK board level roles are predominantly filled by lawyers, accountants and sales / marketing types.....
I'd disagree with you totaly.
I do think we have a good reputation, we regulalry win contracts at a higher cost than our competitors based on better quality work than might be achieved elswhere in the world based on our experience in doing what we do.
As for board roles, IIRC Engineers (diproportionately Process Engineers) make up the biggest %age of board members in FTSE100 compaines? Closely followed by Geography graduates (go figure that one out).
samuri has a point
TINAS - more than happy to be wrong on the board level posts 😉
Regarding "reputation" - agreed within individual disciplines - perhaps to clarify my point I should offer up "public perception" instead of "reputation"....
Trying to protecting the word engineer is pretty pointless imo.
Since the day the word became common place in the language it has had a variety of uses, and I don't think chartered engineers have any more right to the word than other professions that have and still use it, in much the same way as medical doctors don't have exclusive rights to the initials 'Dr'.
I think it would make more sense to come with a new word or better still promoting the 'Eng.' prefix more.
Most engineers I worked with could turn their hands to most (mechanical) disciplines and quite literally, could design stuff 'on the back of a fag packet'. One guy machined a 4 valve head for a BSA B50 from scratch with a few sketches ..... I could go on
Interesting, could they design a turbine or compressor on the back of a fag packet? How about doing the thremodynamics to ensure that the selected material won't catestrophically fail? Somehow I doubt it.
More importanlty was the new head actualy any better? Not much point in putting 4 valves in the ehad unless your going oversquare on the cylinder, otherwise your just generating a more complicated solution to a none existant problem. Not really engineering?
Spoony I think you remember incorrectly TBH.
I think a better analogy for Samuri would Mrs Gillain McKeith? Everyone was outraged (in the Daily Wail sense of the word, maybe we should get the wod outrage proctected too, it's overuse is an outrage!) that she wasn't actualy a medical doctor.
The point is it's not actualy allowed to call yourself a Doctor unless you are? You could be a Dr or astrophysics, but you wouldnt introduce yoruself as a Doctor, youd say your an astrophysacist (or a Banker more likely these days). '
Says I'm an engineer on the side of my van, copy of The Sun on the dash.
Yup.
I'm more worried about the mind set of fresh engineering graduates at top universities:
"Yeah, I'll work at Network Rail for a few years, they've got a Graduate program that means I'll be chartered really quickly. Don't care 'bout trains"
Couldn't care less what people call themselves, it all becomes pretty clear if it gets brought up in conversation
"I'm an Engineer"
"Cool, what do you do?"
"Fix fridges mostly"
"Ah sweet. I'm an engineer too, I design laser designators for Thales"
Spoony I think you remember incorrectly TBH.
Nope (well, for the Fortune100 in 2005 anway) we make up 22% of CEO's
http://content.spencerstuart.com/sswebsite/pdf/lib/2005_CEO_Study_JS.pdf#nameddest=edu
No idea where the geography link comes from, but sounds too daft to have been made up.
Nope (well, for the Fortune100 in 2005 anway) we make up 22% of CEO's
So you meant to say 'Yes' then 😆
As CEO is different to Board Member and Fortune100 is different to FTSE100.
"Ah sweet. I'm an engineer too, I design laser designators for Thales"
we need to talk...
Legend - Thales
As CEO is different to Board Member and Fortune100 is different to FTSE100.
Yes, but I have engineering to do rather than spend time googleing exact statistics :p
Very little I'd suspect, afterall all a refrigeration system is a compressor, condenser, boiler, and some interconnecting pipework. It's really not very complicated thermodynamically.
Boiler, eh?
The thing is though the one who has spent will understand how compressor and heat exchangers actually work and will (should) be able to apply that knoledge to other problems and won't be limited to refrigeration systems. That is the key difference.
No wonder people are trying to get protective of their terms. You actually have no idea of the training people go through. A good refrigeration engineer will fully understand gas laws, thermodynamics, heat transfer and will understand the theory behind compressors (all different types), heat exchangers, use mollier and psychometric charts and be able to work out flow rates and size pipes, fans and ducts (long hand, doing the maths). Often, they wont touch a set of guages until they have done the theory for 3 or 4 months. They don't just clean condensers and change fans.
If someone had told me beforehand that BSc = 16 hours a wek BEng = 40 of lectures I know which I'd have done 🙂 - no one apart from the xEng contingent seem to know the difference or indeed care once you're out in the world (with a few honourable exceptions of course).
wrecker - sure, but a new graduate Mechanical Engineer will also fully understand all of those things - plus structural mechanics, dynamics, strength of materials, control systems, manufacturing processes and a whole raft of other things.
They study heating/refrigeration systems in a lot of detail (most of 2nd year thermodynamics if I remember rightly).
Not sure who put the boiler in the fridge though...
don simon - Member
Isn't this simply about demanding some kind of respect rather than earning it?
I'm quite sure the general public are well aware that the washing machine engineer isn't a real engineer and equally they wouldn't expect any of the well educated engineers we have here to able to fix a washing machine either.
I am not so sure. While doing my degree, people would ask what I was studying and when I said 'mechanical engineering' many would say something like "oh, so you want to repair cars, do you?"
I can't deny that steveo, but if talking purely about a refrigeration system, the refrigeration engineer will know more about that particular system than a mechanical designer will. 6 months dedicated to refrigeration vs 2 years?
I inspected a buildings M&E systems for defects some time ago (following complaints). It was designed by a by high profile consultancy.
I found a VRF outdoor unit located directly below a fire escape landing (a few inches). A VRF unit rejects heat upwards, an engineer would know this, result didn't work. The Water chillers were in a tiny compound with no air flow too close together, result didnt work. Water tank had a vent duct 2" above it, it could not be inspected and therefore unsafe, result drained down cannot use (L8 regs). Too many designers see equipment as boxes (in my industry) and fail to see how the plant actually works. I shouldnt complain, it keeps me in work!
Also, I've met many "M&E engineers" who do nothing but use IES every day! How are they engineers?
Boiler, eh?
Yup, you know the exchanger where the the refrigerant is actually "boiled" off. Call it a different name if you like but that is what happens in it. I was talking about closed indirect loop stuff although for LPG carriers they normally used a direct loop stuff.
You actually have no idea of the training people go through
No I don't, but I do know that refigeration systems aren't complicated.
So if there was a plane on a treadmill?
anyone that can answer that can have the title
I am not so sure. While doing my degree, people would ask what I was studying and when I said 'mechanical engineering' many would say something like "oh, so you want to repair cars, do you?"
And it was the competence and superior knowledge of mech engineers that allowed me to excell in my role as a sales engineer (I must have been an engineer as it said so on my business cards and mech engineers couldn't funtion without me). 😉
I'm still quite sure that the public would see a mechanic as a mechanic and not as some kind of engineer.
People sat at PCs using software should not have an exclusive right to the term engineer. They should be called designers
Designing the software that other people use is only part of the work, about 10%. Software and Information is just more abstract than wire, gears and concrete. Software Engineers are Engineers.
wrecker - yeah, that's often where new graduates make mistakes is in terms of simple practicality. Made a few myself (nothing disastrous that I can remember!).
I think people suffer not so much from arrogance as from feeling that they HAVE to do it all themselves. There's no substitute for taking your flash new design over to the guys who are actually going to make/install/maintain it and saying "what do you think"?
What watch for engineers ?
😉
Buzz, I wasn't referring to software engineers ( I have no idea what their job involves). I was talking about the IES (for example) jockeys and "spreadsheet" engineers.
I could point out a few things here but really don't want the thread to turn into a petty squabble so I'll shut up now.
The point is designer does not equals engineer, they're just a type of engineer.
You PROPER engineers need to spend more time designing stuff that works so that we pretendy engineers don't have to spend all day every day putting the buggers right!
Saying that an engineeer has to be able to turn there hand to anything rather than a small area of experties is rubbish and even more so to compare it to Dr's. Try working in a hospital and you will soon realise that Dr's train to specalise in a single area and are very uncofortable to go out side of that.
For what its worth i cosider my self an engineer. I don't have a degree but thats more to do with my learing diffuculties restriciting me from being able to do what the acidemic world wants. i work in a engineering deapartment, have to fault find and report back on problems as well as man mange. Its amazing how many projects go on here with cEng's looking after them that can't see problems in looking after the tat that they have put in nor it seems do they care as they are on to the next thing by then.
Dr's train to specalise in a single area and are very uncofortable to go out side of that.
just like Electrical, Mechanical, Software, etc Engineers then?
nOpe more specalist than that as those are vast feilds and are more like say Dr's or Vets.legend - MemberDr's train to specalise in a single area and are very uncofortable to go out side of that.
just like Electrical, Mechanical, Software, etc Engineers then?
Posted 23 minutes ago # Report-Post
There's no substitute for taking your flash new design over to the guys who are actually going to make/install/maintain it and saying "what do you think"?
Rather depends on whether those opinions are subsequently acted upon 😉
I started keeping quiet about being an engineer once I found out what 'Financial Engineers' were doing...
who cares, just get on with the job and fix something
What a load of boll**ks.
I am an 'engineer' I have no engineering degree but engineering training from the RAF, I then went onto become a lead systems engineer at Marconi, and now am a Senior systems engineer in the biggest defence company in the world.
I work with degree qualified chartered Engineers, who are bloody useless. Stright out of uni, to sit at a desk. They order the parts that I tell them to order, I design a system for them, and then they sign it off! They cannot do any 'engineering' them selves because they are 24, and from the playstation generation who tbh cant think for themselves. They do not understand even the basics!
Yet, I cant sign a system off because I dont have the right degree!