The man you quote at the top of the page, Yeshayahu Leibowitz also said that no people have a right to occupy any land
Er, the guy was a commited zionist. I posted his quote because I thought his prophecy made long ago was interesting, don't you? Here it is again.
"The national pride and euphoria that followed the Six-Day War are temporary and will bring us from proud, rising nationalism to extreme, messianic, ultranationalism. The third stage will be brutality and the final stage will be the end of Zionism"
I am perfectly happy to quote zionists if I think their comments are of interest, I have recently extensively quoted a former IDF general/military ombudsman because I consider his opinions concerning the collapse of zionist state to be both interesting and credible, it doesn't however mean that I support them ideologically.
And to get back to your original point, of course the Palestinian people have a right to the land of Palestine, the people who don't are the settler-colonialists who are murdering them.
I think it’s fine for people to describe things as what they are. I have no clue what point you imagine you’re making, but I’m struggling to see the relevance to the topic.
People use "religion of peace" as a prejorative for Islam, implying it is nothing of the sort, usually when an attack is carried out in its name.
You said
Well I’m sure that the peace loving Israeli people will be out in force protesting at this latest escalation by the widely-hated war-monger.
Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.
It's really very simple but you're feigning ignorance. And you've consistently done so over the last few pages.
It's fine to take a stand against Israel as an institution but to use the language you are walks right into the big obvious anti-semitism trap. There's no need and all it does is make the rest of us look bad. So I'm calling it out for what it is, I couldn't care less if you're on the same side of the debate, language like yours isn't welcome and shouldn't be tolerated.
Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.
I would like to imply that during World War 2 the Japanese people as a whole were not peaceful. Does that leave me open to accusations of racism?
Pre 1945 Japanese society was deeply unpeaceful, it was extremely violent, slaughtered an unimaginable amount of people, and treated particularly non-Japanese people appallingly - as worthless in fact.
Obviously that is no longer the situation today, on the contrary it is a perfectly civilised society which complies with accepted norms, but it was certainly the situation 80 years ago. There is nothing racist about acknowledging that.
Today Israeli society is deeply unpeaceful and treats many non Israelis in the Middle East appallingly, often as being completely worthless.
It is Israeli society and its apartheid regime that is horrendous, it has absolutely nothing to do with the ethnicity of the people. In fact Israelis, unlike say the Japanese, represent a whole variety of different ethnicities.
Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.
Taking account of the mods request above, I will simply repeat - Israel is a democracy. Rule of the people, etc. How should we interpret the fact that the Israeli people have repeatedly chosen to be governed by a warmonger?
For me the good guys are the Palestinians who are trying to liberate their lands from foreign occupation
Unfortunately that's the sort of attitude that will prolong the suffering for civilians on both sides. Israel was created nearly 80 years ago, several generations ago. The conflict will not be resolved by force on either side. Like it or not Israel is an established sovereign country.
How should we interpret the fact that the Israeli people have repeatedly chosen to be governed by a warmonger?
Democracy isn't perfect and not even necessarily the will of the population, we had a mad corrupt and hate filled government for 14 years who were voted in 3 times. To suggest that all UK citizens were aligned with their ethos would be completely wrong.
Hezbollah do not rule Lebanon
That doesn't help your argument, so Hezbollah are squatting in a country they have not been democratically elected to decide the fate of yet their actions have brought death and destruction down on Lebanese civilians. Same goes for Hamas, they knew the attacks last year would bring down hell on Gaza but did it anyway. I'm not defending Israel's actions In any way either but if you play with matches and petrol you're going to cause a fire.
Dialogue is the only way to solve this but none of the participants want that, harping back to how things were 80 years ago isn't helpful either (not that they were great then either under British rule).
To suggest that all UK citizens were aligned with their ethos would be completely wrong.
But apparently the biggest group were, uncomfortable as that may be to acknowledge However, evil as the Tories were/are, they didn’t drop bombs on hospitals
their actions have brought death and destruction down on Lebanese civilians.
The responsibility lies squarely with the ones pulling the trigger.
Unfortunately that’s the sort of attitude that will prolong the suffering for civilians on both sides.
What civilian suffering on both sides, are you living in some sort of parallel universe? The only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side, they are getting slaughtered and maimed by the tens of thousands.
According to Flyingox on this thread life is great for Israeli civilians. He's had a walk around and people are busy buying new cars, eating in restaurants, etc etc and generally just enjoying life. I've heard that you can go on boat trips along with Gaza coast to witness the devastation caused by the IDF.
What prolongs the violence is injustice.
You cannot have peace without justice
The responsibility lies squarely with the ones pulling the trigger.
So you agree then that responsibility also lies with Hezbollah due to their aggressive rocket attacks into Israel. I cant think of any justification for them, they are in no way defensive, and are going to cause a response (and civilian deaths given their indiscriminate nature, they are intended to create terror).
Israel is then of course responsible for the civilian deaths it causes in Lebanon.
Defending one side versus the other in this conflict is not helpful, as I said before there are no good guys on either side.
Apparently 85% of Russians support Putin, are we going to get all touchy about condemning Russian behaviour in Ukraine?
According to state-controlled pollsters
A UK-based polling company reported that 36% of Russians supported military action in mid-Feb 2022 https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html
Ernie they were trying to sell plots of land in Gaza a few months ago weren't they? All part the the Israeli total victory rhetoric which is a fantasy and prolongs the agony of everyone caught up in this.
This is an extract from Reagans diary’s regarding the Israelis bombing of Beirut back in 1982,
Thursday, August 12, 1982
View the President's Schedule
Met with the news the Israelis delivered the most devastating bomb & artillery attack on W. Beirut lasting 14 hours. Habib cabled—desperate—has basic agreement from all parties but cant arrange details of P.L.O. withdrawal because of the barrage. King Fahd called begging me to do something. I told him I was calling P.M. Begin immediately. And I did—I was angry. I told him it had to stop or our entire future relationship was endangered. I used the word holocaust deliberately & said the symbol of his war was becoming a picture of a 7 month old baby with it’s arms blown off. He told me he had ordered the bombing stopped—I asked about the artillery fire. He claimed the P.L.O. had started that & Israeli forces had taken casualties. End of call. Twenty mins. later he called to tell me he’d ordered an end to the barrage and plead for our continued friendship. Spent rest of day meeting with Congressmen on Tax bill.
there are no good guys on either side.
So the tens of thousands of dead women and children in Gaza - were they “bad guys” as well ?
Remember the good old days when Reagan was the worst US President you could imagine ?
According to state-controlled pollsters
No not at all. According to Levada. And according to the LSE blog : "The most reputable public opinion data available in Russia are from the Levada Center, a non-governmental research organisation conducting regular surveys since 1988"
It is a separate topic altogether but you would need to be very naive to believe that Putin doesn't enjoy overwhelming public support. For whatever reasons Putin's personal approval ratings are far greater than Western leaders, and always have been.
People, and society as a whole, can overwhelmingly support violent regimes and the lies that they propagate. It happens. If you don't like the Russian example then focus on the the pre-1945 militarist-fascist Japanese regime or the German one of a similar period, both enjoyed massive public support.
There was of course nothing inherently wrong with Germans and Japanese, it was a case of far-right fascism corrupting the minds of the people through lies and profound racism, a similar situation to zionism today.
Remember the good old days when Reagan was the worst US President you could imagine ?
Well........he did help to usher in neoliberalism so there's that to hold against his administration........ 😉
So the tens of thousands of dead women and children in Gaza
Don't be obtuse, you know I didn't mean the civilians, or for that matter many of the combatants. The leadership of all the factions and the people supporting them were the bad guys I was referring to. They are the ones ordering the attacks and actively avoiding any attempts to start the long process of reconciliation and peace. Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah, all led by war mongering bad guys with no desire to bring peace to the region.
Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah, all led by war mongering bad guys with no desire to bring peace to the region.
That remains to be seen. My belief is that if Israel agreed a just peace with the Palestinians then Hamas and Hezbollah wouldn’t get volunteers to stuff envelopes, let alone pick up a gun. Worth a try - for anyone who really wants peace?
There was of course nothing inherently wrong with Germans and Japanese, it was a case of far-right fascism corrupting the minds of the people through lies and profound racism, a similar situation to zionism today.
A similar story in Rwanda. It’s not credible that the Hutu were inherently evil, and yet they were perverted by “hasbara” radio broadcasts.
This is a brilliant well-written opinion piece written by a Canadian I believe:
The peace appeals of Israel’s Western enablers are a cynical charade
It's all excellent imo but my favourite bit is this :
"The West’s defining Middle East doctrine: Kill first, think later"
It is so true. Just look at Iraq for example....... after the West's slaughter of countless Iraqis (they refused to count them) which is the major foreign power in Iraq today? Yup, it's Iran. So that went well. And it extends beyond the Middle East........ after the slaughter of countless Afghans with the aim of defeating the Taliban who's in control of Afghanistan today? Yup, the Taliban.
So it is today that the West, which of course includes Israeli colonialists, are slaughtering the indigenous peoples of the Middle East. That is the only plan, what happens afterwards is anybody's guess.
they've attacked Yemen now
Is anyone still suggesting on here that Israel is facing an existential threat?
They don't appear to be on the ropes from what I can see.
Is anyone still suggesting on here that Israel is facing an existential threat?
Absolutely they are imo. But it obviously won't be from a militarily superior power. It will be because what they are doing is not sustainable, the threat is from within. Israel is frankly screwed. Hence it is behaving the way it is.
According to state-controlled pollsters
No not at all. According to Levada. And according to the LSE blog : “The most reputable public opinion data available in Russia are from the Levada Center, a non-governmental research organisation conducting regular surveys since 1988”
Don't confuse "the most reputable public opinion data" with current independence; the Levada Centre has changed massively since 1988.
In 2013 the BBC reported that, "In a statement, Levada Centre head Lev Gudkov said prosecutors had not only threatened the organisation with sanctions but had undermined its authority. The warning puts the Yuri Levada Analytical Centre in an extremely difficult position, in effect forcing it to cease its activity as an independent sociological research organisation, carrying out systematic polls of public opinion in Russia," https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22599321
It has since become fully state funded.
We digress...
Your 11 year old link makes no claim that Levada is state funded but as you say we digress, if you want to kid yourself that Putin doesn't enjoy the support of the majority of Russians then that's up to you, there are plenty of other examples of people supporting the violent and often completely illegal behaviour of their governments.
Israel being an obvious and current example.
Your 11 year old link makes no claim that Levada is state funded but as you say we digress...
It wouldn't, I quite clearly said, "It has since become fully state funded."
...if you want to kid yourself that Putin doesn’t enjoy the support of the majority of Russians then that’s up to you,
"45 percent of respondents named the Russian president among the politicians they trust." 3% lower than in July and the lowest since October 2023 and that's in an autocracy where citizens won't generally express open opinions. https://www.newsweek.com/russian-trust-putin-levada-center-poll-kursk-incursion-1946625
I quite clearly said, “It has since become fully state funded.”
Yes and your above link quite clearly says:
Russia's Levada Center, an independent research organization based in Moscow.
So yes, after Ukraine's incursion into the Kursk region "trust" in Putin fell to 45%, apparently the lowest ever recorded.
What has that got to do with whether the majority of Russians support the war in Ukraine and what has that got to do with Israel?
Are you suggesting that the majority of Israelis do not support the slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza, and now increasingly in the West Bank?
And down into the spiral we go... this is how the thread became the Ernie and DrJ show for a period and you fell out with one another even then 🙂
I know it is impossible to defend Israel's slaughter of men, women, and children, by the tens of thousands, and the destruction of their homes, schools, hospitals, and universities, but let's stick to the topic which is 'Gaza'
Check out this YT for a view from Israel:
'The Looming Catastrophe in the Middle East (with Gideon Levy) Chris Hedges Report'
I can't provide the link as I only have a limited gadget and am in foreign parts
"Looming" ?
Edit : Ah, I've just seen..... It refers to the "looming catastrophe" for Israel. Yup, I couldn't agree more.
Is anyone still suggesting on here that Israel is facing an existential threat?
Absolutely. It might look like they are in control for now but the actions they've taken in the past 12 months will reverberate for decades. From this point forward Israel will be a country under siege. They will spend the next 30 years with a target on their back and will face political and cultural isolation on the world stage. If Israelis currently feel like the rest of the world hates them, they're going to have to get used to that and live with it for a very long time.
They will spend the next 30 years with a target on their back and will face political and cultural isolation on the world stage.
You are taking a very optimistic view of the situation, Gen Brik takes a rather more pessimistic view:
Israel Will Collapse Within a Year if the War of Attrition Against Hamas and Hezbollah Continues
Another speech by Gideon Levy. I’m sure if someone else said what he says they’d be called “antisemitic”.
James Elder at the “WTAF are you doing” stage of anger and bewilderment over Gaza
Israel are now trolling us, below taken from CNN
Israel says its operation aims to stop Hezbollah's violations of a key UN resolution
From CNN's Ivana Kottasová
Hezbollah’s attempts to “infiltrate Israel” from the north, in violation of a 2006 United Nations resolution, are among the reasons for the “limited” ground operation Israel launched into Lebanon overnight, an Israeli security official said.
Speaking to reporters on Tuesday, the official argued that Hezbollah has been violating the 2006 UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which calls for a permanent ceasefire and an end to hostilities between Hezbollah and Israel
The above about settlements looks like a complete false flag, and does no good in this current climate, just websites and so on feeding off the whole nightmare going on in Lebanon, Gaza the West Bank and Israel.
The above about settlements looks like a complete false flag
Yes, of course - because there's no history at all of Israel establising settlements on illegally occupied land. This specific website may be fake, or it may not, but it's not exactly unprecedented for such activity to occur.
The above about settlements looks like a complete false flag, and does no good in this current climate, just websites and so on feeding off the whole nightmare going on in Lebanon, Gaza the West Bank and Israel.
So you believe that the world famous Jerusalem Post is deliberately stirring the shit with regards to the whole Lebanon, Gaza the West Bank nightmare with this article?
Israeli Rabbi calls for Israel to conquer Lebanon and settle it
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-821752
All Israeli colonial settlements in Occupied Palestine are illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Some are also illegal under Israeli law and are not officially recognised. But the IDF and Israeli apartheid government rarely does anything about them.
You would need to be very naive and ignorant of the horrors committed by Israeli colonial-settler mentality if you believe that there is no desire by any to settle in newly occupied land, and their ability to get away with it.
More here from an American Jewish publication founded in 1946 :
Inside the Movement to Settle Southern Lebanon
https://jewishcurrents.org/inside-the-movement-to-settle-southern-lebanon-uri-tzafon-israel
Building on the successes of the Israeli settler movement, a new ultra-right group is seeking to open yet another front for conquest.
Note in the above link the reference to "the successes of the Israeli settler movement" ?
Here is more detail of their successes :
Extremist settlers rapidly seizing West Bank land
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c207j6wy332o
.
"the BBC World Service has seen documents showing that organisations with close ties to the Israeli government have provided money and land used to establish new illegal outposts"
People really need to educate themselves about the horrors of zionism.
