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I think I'd be camped outside the sales centre with the remnants of the porch and the tiles in a big heap on the floor for all their potential customers to see until I was satisfied they were going to something about it
This is an avenue I had considered and may still be taken should all others be exhausted, but at the moment I have no way of getting it there short of cutting it up.
Be very clear on time scales, do not let them fob you off. If they have cut corners on one property then it is quite likely the same gang did the same on other properties. Out is what really gets to me about the national house builders, build cheap sell expensive.
There is no justification for feeling charitable towards the builder or in any way helping them with a cover-up.
In no way do I feel charitable towards the builder (already named and shamed above) I just feel in the interest of fairness I should give someone in a managerial capacity the chance to say whether or not they are going to do anything before kicking up a fuss. There will not be anything like a cover-up, if the builder doesn't fix mine and retrofit all the others on this site I will be onto the local paper and any other channels available (this will probably be front page news in my local rag).
And of course the rest of your house will, unfortunately, have been cobbled together just as badly.
mastiles_fanylion - Member
And of course the rest of your house will, unfortunately, have been cobbled together just as badly.
That's what would concern me.
I'd definitely be talking to the neighbours as they'll want there's sorted out too.
If they have cut corners on one property then it is quite likely the same gang did the same on other properties.
Well of course. They are unlikely to have used chemical bolts on the all the other porches on the estate, but singled out Mr C's porch for the 4 inch screws and brown plugs treatment.
build cheap sell expensive.
I don't suppose this has anything to do with cost at all, and it is just a case of "couldn't give a ****" and some smart-arse thinking they know better.
Bellway Homes is unlikely to have saved any money as a result of poor fixing. The fixing of the porches will have been in the carpentry sub-contractors prices, and they would have priced them based on the architects specifications provided to them - I doubt very much that 4 inch screws in brown plugs where specified. So the cost will have already been covered, and Bellway Homes will have paid for it - the carpentry sub-contractors will have supplied all fixings at their own costs.
Those responsible, as far as I'm concerned, are the carpentry sub-contractors, site management, and the NHBC guy who comes on site.
Doubt the architects specced anything. If it were Bellway they are mostly D&B so will have done whatever!
I should give someone in a managerial capacity the chance to say whether or not they are going to do anything before kicking up a fuss.
So as long as they fix the problem, it's perfectly alright for a porch to fall off the front of a house ?
*rolls eyes*
Building inspector will take more than a passing interest too, I'd imagine. Are the fixings visible on your neighbours' porches?
Hopefully their D&B employs the odd architect/engineer Taff. And if it wasn't specified, then I don't know why the sub-contractor didn't ask the question when pricing - there's a big difference in a box of screws and brown plugs v chemical bolts, for example - both in cost and lab time.
How are these things normally built then? Wall plate fixed and built from there or is the whole porch fitted, then tiled and leaded? 😕
I've fitted the lightweight version (plastic tile effect roof, prob 35kg) and the instructions called for chunky timber wall plates. Me and my mate both hung off it to make sure it was solid (32 stone :oops:) before doing the flashing. That was on a 30s brick house. If yours is timber frame I'd be having a long look at where those screws were going and how that was tied to the rest of the structure.
I've fitted plenty of pre-formed fibreglass canopies which required nothing more than screws, but more substantial structures with wall plates generally need a bit more, such as expansion/chemical bolts into solid brickwork/concrete blocks. I would expect it to be specified on the drawings.
Bellway Homes is unlikely to have saved any money as a result of poor fixing. The fixing of the porches will have been in the carpentry sub-contractors prices, and they would have priced them based on the architects specifications provided to them - I doubt very much that 4 inch screws in brown plugs where specified. So the cost will have already been covered, and Bellway Homes will have paid for it - the carpentry sub-contractors will have supplied all fixings at their own costs.
No Bellway are responsible in so much as that they will have employed subbies on the basis of cost, Teh subby will have employed the cheapest labour they could get away with. Why pay for a decent chippy when you can get some monkey with a drill to do the job for half the money.
There is definitely an element of couldn't give a S***, but it is through the whole chain. There are good builders, but there are also a lot of cowboys.
And even if the spec said what to use the number of times i have come across subbies willing to break the spec to save a few pence is unreal. As long as you get away with it no one knows or cares.
No Bellway are responsible in so much as that they will have employed subbies on the basis of cost
Which explains why I said :
[i]"Those responsible, as far as I'm concerned, are the carpentry sub-contractors, site management, and the NHBC guy who comes on site".[/i]
Why pay for a decent chippy when you can get some monkey with a drill to do the job for half the money
Because there is, or should be, site management which strictly controls quality and standards of work which complies with the specs. All the more so at a time when work is thin on the ground. I will always remember what a site agent once said to my subbie, his exact words were "you are contractually required to supply carpenters - not ****s" it made us all smile, and what he was complaining about was actually very minor. Tradesmen not up to the job are simply thrown off the site - no site agent/manager feels any obligation to put up with them.
Of course there is always the possibility that Bellway Homes themselves, were responsible for any "short-cuts". They could have demanded that the subbie goes ahead and fixes the porches straight away without waiting for the correct fixings to arrive, because of the time element - that is very far from unusual. But the subbie should at the very least have insisted on having it in writing, although ideally refused to do it.
I've just noticed on the canopy a small label with the manufacturers name on it - StormKing. I have been to their website and discovered a pdf of "Fixing / Loading Information For Standard Stormking Canopies". On this it states that for the kind of canopy I have (Apex Trussed variety) the minimum fixing for solid brick is M10 Rawlock bolts. I believe the technical term for this is "bang to rights". 😀
Edit: Can we take the argument about who is responsible elsewhere before another thread gets closed - I bought the house from the builder, whether they subcontracted the work is no concern of mine, my contract is with Bellway.
Good detective work mate. Worth a call to them just to discuss the matter? Absolutely no way should this be impacting on your insurance.
And +100 for informing your neighbours with a similar design. I'd say they have a right to know what's going on as that's clearly dangerous and could land on a childs face with no prior warning 👿 Someone in the group of interested people will probably know a solicitor and offer to take up the case on everyone's behalf. Result being that you'll get the problem sorted at minimum cost and effort to yourself. Thus giving you more time and money to spend on biking 😆
A bit scary having a lump like that fall off your house, esp at exactly the spot you could expect someone to be standing (and makihg the sort of vibrations closing the door that could nudge it over the edge).
Whilst you need to get on to the builder's management pdq, I would not waste too much time before making contact with your neighbours. Partly your issue is with making good your property at no cost to yourself but you also seem to have an admirable concern with the welfare of your neighbours. Popping a note through a few doors detailing all you have found so far, including a photo of your house and inviting them to make contact with you to make joint protest to the builder will be power to your elbow. At the moment you can invite the to come around and see your house at its worst before and repair work is done.
TBH though - those porches - god awful things! They are the turn of the millenium equivalent of the mock georgian entrances on estate properties of the 80's. Best rid of it! Our first house had one and as it had a front door that entered directly into the front room I suppose it did stop a bit of rain entering but they do nothing for house aesthetics.
TBH though - those porches - god awful things! They are the turn of the millenium equivalent of the mock georgian entrances on estate properties of the 80's. Best rid of it! Our first house had one and as it had a front door that entered directly into the front room I suppose it did stop a bit of rain entering but they do nothing for house aesthetics.
Never had one (ued to have a carport above the front door at previous house) but I can see the benefit to be honest - a proper porch keeps the muddy shoes and rain and wind outside when you walk in. These half-ass porches are pointless though, other than to stop you getting QUITE as wet while fumbling for your key to get in lol. Just another thing to get ripped off in high winds!
I haven’t read this thread thoroughly but scanning it reveals some misunderstanding about contract law and the areas of responsibility in relation to this. However....
• The fixing of the porch is clearly woefully inadequate so everyone involved is negligent of their duties under contract and in tort
• The owner has recourse to the Builder under contract.
• If not original owner there could be a collateral warranty agreement.
• If there is no contractual relationship then the builder is responsible in tort.
• Any subcontractors that may have been used by the builder are irrelevant. The builder may be able to counterclaim from them but the owner has no action against them.
• NHBC are essentially insurers – the builder’s insurers. Go after the builder and let them deal with NHBC. They have a duty to approve the drawing and inspect the works to ensure adequacy and compliance with their rules
• The Local Authority has the responsibility to ensure compliance with Building regulations. This obviously does not comply and therefore they are at fault and liable.
It depends what you want to achieve. If you just want to get your porch restored without reference to the broader safety issues you need to get to the builder and offer to keep quiet if they fix it for you. If you are concerned about other people’s safety go to the Local Authority – they are bigger and more powerful than you. Also they are liable so their motivation should be good. Perhaps make an appointment to discuss the matter with a Senior Building Inspector and see how they react. Whatever they do/don’t say or do, write to them confirming the contents of that meeting immediately after.
BTW a proper solution to the fixing problem is quite difficult. It’s not enough to simply use stronger fixings. What the fixing goes into needs to be considered. The best anchor in the world is useless if it is set in cheese. Cavity walls are cheese for the purposes of cantilevers.
The before and after photographs don’t match?
The before and after photographs don’t match?
There is no before photograph - the first picture was just an example of the type.
This is what it looked a few years back on Google Streetmaps.
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If you just want to get your porch restored without reference to the broader safety issues you need to get to the builder and offer to keep quiet if they fix it for you
There will be no offer to keep quiet - a lot of these canopies are very close to the footpath and, like mine, could fall on anyone passing by including my daughter - I will be insisting they are all checked and re-fixed correctly. Armed with the evidence from the manufacturers website I am going to talk to all the neighbours with the same type canopy this afternoon.
• The Local Authority has the responsibility to ensure compliance with Building regulations. This obviously does not comply and therefore they are at fault and liable.
I've always wondered about this bit.
I can see how building inspectors can check dimensions, following of approved plans and the significant visually inspectable building issues; but how are they expected to have intimate knowledge of this type of fixing where the exact nature can't be determined once the work is finished? They can't be expected to be hovering over the builders shoulder to witness every job. I guess maybe in this case the screw heads might have just been painted over and not plugged so could have been seen and queried.
On a new build it's likely the local authority haven't been anywhere near it, the big housebuilders normally use approved inspectors
The likelihood of the LA ever having been nearbyhis is zero, it'll either have been done by NHBC or another of the recognised bodies. Just speak to the housebuilder tomorrow morning and ask them to pop round to discuss as you'd like it sorted pretty quickly. Don't go all bombers on them as it's a lot more pleasant for all concerned if it's done without threats and swearing.
Even if the LA are involved, doesn't seem they enforce much. Just sold a house that was built mid-nineties, turned out the developer never got the building control signed off. They just sold it and vanished.
Buyers solicitors picked it up. Ended up getting the inspector around 15 years after the event to sign the property off. He turns up with a list of outstanding items, which I then had to put right before we could get a completion certificate.
Quizzed the guy why they didn't enforce the sign-off, he just shrugged his shoulders, said we're very busy you know...
...wanders off to check porch...
Shocking. Had two houses with such porches, the M10 raw bolts should be obvious from the underside of the porch. I'd put a letter through every house on the estate with such a porch immediately, and start propping up the porches with some decent timber. I suspect people may have noticed that it's already fallen off.
I can't seriously imaging Bellway Homes not taking this seriously, to be honest - whatever the sales rep might say. Retrospective refitting of proper bolts isn't that great a deal. The company that built our last house had to completely rebuild a set of garages as the mortar crumbled away - all without removing the roof. 😳
Having a quick look at the Fischer manual, a 6mm screw in a standard S plug (similar to a Rawlplug) has a typical recommended load of about 60kg.
I would NEVER just use screws and plugs to hold anything substantial onto the outside of a building.
For reference, we have just had a 450mm deep canopy designed at work and that needed M8 wall anchors at 400mm centres (so 10 in total to take the 4m wide canopy). I think the design weight of the canopy was 130kg off the top of my head. We would have thrown it back to the engineer had he specced screws and plugs.
Edited
well - the fixings are pathetic.
I've just put up a punchbag holder on the outside of my house. the bracket is about 10kg....it'll hold a what, 20kg punchbag? and it has a chin-up bar to lift my 18st bulk.....so the [b]6 x 10mm BOLTS [i/b] supplied should be ok to keep the total of 145kg.
now - bearing the aobve in mind.....6 x screws???? me thinks not
That is terrible I fit these canopy's and we use bolts which are between 120mm and 160mm and 6mm in thickness at every 400mm.
On the other hand these houses have to be thrown together so quickly these days, everyone is on a price which is usually terrible so it no surprise there are corners cut everywhere...
Not to mention most of the builders working on sites now cant speak a word of english let alone read a instruction manual.
a proper solution to the fixing problem is quite difficult. It’s not enough to simply use stronger fixings. .......The best anchor in the world is useless if it is set in cheese. Cavity walls are cheese for the purposes of cantilevers.
I disagree, a brick or concrete block cavity wall should be perfectly adequate to handle the weight of a porch. And in this case it's clearly the fixings which have failed, not the wall. I am also unconvinced that providing correct fixings now, need necessarily present a serious problem (I can't quite figure out the construction details from the 2 pic which appear to be different) unless of course other porches have started pulling away from the walls - that could be a problem, and might require more or less starting again. Still not that big a deal imo.
i refer you to the earlier post.. your wasting time and energy. nhbc will have nothing to do with it.. on our new barratt homes the ridge tiles were literally droping off on to cars the road etc etc.. thier reponse ryhmed with puff.
Just in case the OP gets too despondent by the suggestions of the defeatists on here :
[i]"Figures for claims paid to homeowners that claimed on their NHBC Warranty in 2008/09 went up from £46.4m in 2007/08 to £59.3m in 2008/09"[/i]
So it would appear that the NHBC pays out over £1 million every week in claims then.
And the breakdown is as follows :
[i]"NHBC claims figure for 2008/09 include 17.3% of claims related to foundations, substructure and ground floors (subject to building control inspections). The building envelope including intermediate floors accounted for 34.6% of all claims, again a fundamental structural aspect. The roof accounted to nearly as many claims at 33.9%, services, fixtures and finishes accounted for 11.5% and finally ancillary buildings such as garages 2.7%."[/i]
I think we can safely assume that the porch falling off the front of your house represents a serious structural defect. Unless of course it can be proved that the OP went round removing all the expansion/chemical bolts and replaced them with 4 inch screws and brown plugs.
as someone who has spent many years selling technical construction products to the housebuilders I'd suggest the following:
Ascertain who manufactured the canopy, probably someone like canopies.co.uk and ask their technical dept to give you a technical installation manager. It was most definately fitted contrary to their instructions which makes the house builders liable.
Issue a small claims court for the cost of a new canopy and professional fitting and another £1500 for stress, hassle etc and you'll sail through the courts.
I've had Persimmons to court twice for various issues and won on both occasions.
Sooooo......
Any update? Anything else fallen off?
Did the neighbours notice?
Bump
Any update how have you got on with the builders.
Any update how have you got on with the builders.
Perhaps he's now part of a new builds foundations.....
😉
Perhaps he's now part of the foundations down at number 84?
Maybe the rest of the house followed soon afterwards and he's been a little busy clearing up ?
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[url= http://www.nhbc.co.uk/Homeowners/Problemswithyourhome/Whatiscovered/FAQ/#3to10 ]info here[/url]
someones probably already posted this but I dont have time to read all posts.
I had a problem with the lintel over my patio door in year 6 and struggled ALOT with Jones Homes depends on builders for some reason I thought your 'contract' was with the NHBC people to sort but it took a long time and alot of messing - Good Luck xx
Maybe he knocked on a neighbours door a little too hard and instead of warning them about dodgy porch fixings, he demonstrated instead and used his head to stop it's fall?
Sorry to disappoint/thanks for your concern but I've not ended up under a pile of rubble or someone else's canopy - I'm working away from home this week so I don't have much chance to get on here. It might have been a close thing with ending up under another canopy, at least one of the neighbour's canopies looks like it won't be up for much longer as I could have got my fingers into the gap between the wall and the top of the support truss and I felt nervous just standing under it.
I contacted Bellway customer care on Monday morning and spoke to a very helpful lady who took all the details and seemed genuinely concerned. She rang me back in the early afternoon to tell me they would be replacing my canopy and retrofitting all the others with the correct fixings within ten working days. I must say I was very surprised it was this easy - I won't be home until tomorrow so don't know if anything has actually been done.
takes the wind right out of your sails when they're nice, concerned and offer to rectify the problem for all affected without quibble, doesn't it?