[Closed] Farage and Clegg Round two here we go !

You are in Europe HoratioHufnagel.

I lasted about 5 mins before giving up on it. Honestly, who gives a shit about what these nasty little irrelevant men think? One of them's the leader of an extremist minority party, and the other one ....is that hateful toad Farage. A pox on both their parties.

Balanced BBC News at 10 report. It's all Cleggie

I actually watch some of this. The idea that anyone 'won' the debate is ridiculous and that can be measured quite easily in the absolute lacklustre applause for either.

Was pretty pathetic all in.

Didn't watch it but it's interesting how the former commodities trader has apparently managed to paint himself as an outsider on the side of the downtrodden working classes.

I watched both, found myself 'twittering' derision at Clegg and BBC giving him so much more early air time, however, the sad fact is UKIP which really is only a single issue party will now become the third force in British Politics, they are going to absolutely annihilate everyone in the May elections for all sorts of negative reasons the other idiots haven't dealt with.

Then consider what choice of leader we have, a back stabbing weasel, a Lying Philanderer, or a posh Tory Boy with affected Liberal credentials.

Two things will happen, either nobody votes, or they will protest and right now Farage is the best of a really bad bunch, he does at least call it as he sees it. A big mistake letting him get this much publicity by the other three, but as an ex libdem voter of some years standing I hate Clegg with such a vengeance I might just vote UKIP out of sheer frustration and I bet there are lots like me.

I might just vote UKIP out of sheer frustration and I bet there are lots like me.

But why? If you were a lib dem voter how does voting for a party with the opposite policies help. 😕

grum - Member
I might just vote UKIP out of sheer frustration and I bet there are lots like me.
But why?

Farage was spot on about one thing, Putin is a much cleverer politician than any of our lot and was totally provoked.

we should be using all our previous connections rather than tying ourselves in with an expansionist pseudo imperialist bunch of Brussels Bureaucrats .

That is just a complete failure of logic. Nothing stopping us from doing that as well as creating the closest links with our closest and richest neighbours.

No point saying you would vote for them as a protest, when you repeatedly show your support for their policies are real.

I have to say that I watched about 10 mins and my first thought was who am I going to vote for in the next election. It is a case of picking the least bad rather than the best party.

really putin cleverer?

he has hurt his economy, excluded from the G8, look at shares in gazprom the Uk already turned away from russina gas when putin cut off supplies in 2009 to extend the lease on the crimean naval base

even China doesnt support him on this, wildly popular at home he may be but Russia is now saddled with supporting a peninsula dependent on ukraine for energy and food that is badly in need of investment and apart from a naval base and dried up tourism has not much to offer.

And now Ukraine has become 85% non russian and will move ever closer to EU and europe,
as will the string of former USSR states now worried about russian intervention, Poland has requested an increase in NATO troops.

of course you wouldnt expect someone as small minded and isolationist as farage to understand what that means for europe, blinded as he by his hard-on for Putin standing up to the EU

derekfish - Member
I might just vote UKIP out of sheer frustration and I bet there are lots like me.

kimbers - Member
Putin standing up to the EU

So what should he have done, despite all their agreements back in 91 about not expanding Nato, here they are rolled right up to his doorstep.

And us, are you really happy to be a little province run by Brussells? Just because we have this charade at Westminster and our jolly Monarchy, doesn't mean we have much say in the way things go these days. Is it OK to lose our entire fishing Industry, have huge swathes of land on set aside paid to keep a few wealthy landowners happy, not to mention the expense of our Energy costs to subsidise the Wind Industry, which some of the political elite have huge family investment in, then don't even get me started on the legal profession half of whom are in Parliament or influenced it under the last lot, with their human rights industry and gleeful application of all those nice new European laws that have to be enforced or contested, either way they win.

Funny place this, everyone else it's OK to be Independent (Scotland Wales, Ireland) yet the bizarre thought that we should be left to run our own affairs as if we've never been much good at it... when in point of fact actually we have and actually we could do even better, provided we resisted getting involved in world conflict and minded our own business.

Which after all appears to be the Farage message and during that programme increasingly I came to realise wasn't much different to my own view on things, he just looks a complete idiot and has had some stupid press with some of the idiots who he surrounds himself with.

derekfish, you live in a scary world where the EU apparently controls all the laws in the country, Im struggling to know where to start with your deluded ramblings-

erm

human rights industry

And us, are you really happy to be a little province run by Brussells? Just because we have this charade at Westminster and our jolly Monarchy, doesn't mean we have much say in the way things go these days. Is it OK to lose our entire fishing Industry, have huge swathes of land on set aside paid to keep a few wealthy landowners happy, not to mention the expense of our Energy costs to subsidise the Wind Industry, which some of the political elite have huge family investment in, then don't even get me started on the legal profession half of whom are in Parliament or influenced it under the last lot, with their human rights industry and gleeful application of all those nice new European laws that have to be enforced or contested, either way they win.

Sounds like you are an ideal UKIP supporter - can't imagine why you ever voted Lib Dem. 😕

And you're very naive if you think Farage wouldn't just act like an even more extreme version of the Tory party if he ever got into power.

I started life politically on the far left, was a branch secretary of the NUJ, then the absurdity of some of the left attitudes of the day, demarcation etc moved me to the centre and I ended up SDP, never totally wishy washy liberal. However this issue is the Euro debate, and unless you've traded with the bastards and realise that the nationalistic tendencies and anti competitive measures are still in place and the cost to our jobs and businesses over the years that has taken place due to European centralisation has meant the end of our car Industry, our manufacturing, fishing, and many other small businesses. I don't suppose many of you even realise for example there is a law in Germany that if two suppliers of a product are vying for business and one is German the other not, then you are duty bound to use the German supplier? Don't even get me started on the French.

Try and set up an ebay account in Germany, even if you had one whilst living there, return here and you won't be able to use it.

Small anecdotal things I realise, but over the years they do grind you down if you're trying to sell to them.

I'm not naive, but I have no faith in the young career politico ****s that are so wet behind the ears or from a world so different to the one I exist in, Farage for all his faults has worked, if there were someone a little less 'iffy' then he or she would get the vote, but compared to the rest, you can't seriously expect anyone to support Milliband, who else is there?

The fact that normal people (or should that be 'hard working families' ) are even contemplating voting for a numpty like Farage, in any numbers, represents the most damning indictment yet of the state of mainstream politics in this country. Could there be a more graphic illustration of how totally unrepresentative, and disengaged from most peoples lives our main political parties now are.

If you were an MP in Westminster then you should be hanging your head in shame that you played your part in allowing things to get to the stage where people are looking to UKIP as a serious recipient of their vote. Could there be a more telling sign of your abject failure?

As it is, I'm sure that none of them (with the odd notable exception) really give a flying ****! Apart from some concern about being jettisoned from the gravy train! They'll just carry on doing what the whips tell them, representing the interests of their corporate paymasters, and keep filling in those expenses claims

binners - Member
The fact that normal people (or should that be 'hard working families' ) are even contemplating voting for a numpty like Farage, in any numbers, represents the most damning indictment yet of the state of mainstream politics in this country. Could there be a more graphic illustration of how totally unrepresentative, and disengaged from most peoples lives our main political parties now are.

If you were an MP in Westminster then you should be hanging your head in shame that you played your part in allowing things to get to the stage where people are looking to UKIP as a serious recipient of their vote. Could there be a more telling sign of your abject failure?

As it is, I'm sure that none of them (with the odd notable exception) really give a flying ****! Apart from some concern about being jettisoned from the gravy train! They'll just carry on doing what the whips tell them, representing the interests of their corporate paymasters, and keep filling in those expenses claims

This.

I wonder if Alex Salmond will be writing to the BBC and Clegg thanking them for providing an hour of good reasons to vote for independence?

since clegg is up for a debate, can we get him up here? Would be friggin hilarous to see Salmond take him apart! 😆

I'm confused. At what point did Nigel Farage, a public school educated and former commodities trader in the City of London become an 'honest hard-working man of the people"? Drinking pints, smoking fags and ranting about foreigners might look good on the telly, but it doesn't make him the solution to the corporate-owned unrepresentative farce that calls itself modern-day politics.

If anyone thinks this con-man is any different to Clegg, Cameron and Miliband then they are sadly deluded.

I can't understand why anyone would give Farage the time of day. A party basing their one policy on a scapegoat is well on the road to facism. Isn't it Adolf?

yS could show videos of Farage v Clegg

BT could show Sturgeon v Lamont

Everyone else could weep at the lack of quality in either.

However this issue is the Euro debate, and unless you've traded with the bastards and realise that the nationalistic tendencies and anti competitive measures are still in place and the cost to our jobs and businesses over the years that has taken place due to European centralisation has meant the end of our car Industry, our manufacturing, fishing, and many other small businesses

We also still make lots of cars here they companies are multinationals
interestingly they stated their views this week
Britain's car industry has expressed its overwhelming opposition to a UK exit from the European Union, saying EU membership is crucial for jobs, investment and growth.

Over 90% of companies in the £60bn sector believe staying in the EU would be the best for their business, according to a report by KPMG commissioned by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT).

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/02/uk-car-industry-britain-eu-european-union-business

actual facts rarely come into an EU debate and it is often just balme them as if they are the bogeyman

Like Cleggy, JY, you need to read all of that report in which they insist in order to remain they want to see EU reform.

As to the Motor Industry, you may not have been old enough to spot the distinct lack of British Made cars on French roads or the obstacles placed in the way of British manufacturers wishing to market to Europe, it was one of the reason we voted to join the Common Market, unfortunately we didn't reckon with the refusal on the part of the others to uphold the rules. VW BMW were not always the Goliaths they are today and the French subsidised Car Industry made very sure it was not profitable to compete with them despite the numerous attempts various governments made to devalue our currency.

teamhurtmore - Member
yS could show videos of Farage v Clegg

BT could show Sturgeon v Lamont

Everyone else could weep at the lack of quality in either.

Something we agree on! 😆

At least the EU actually make an effort to try and tackle pollution, in light of the smog event at the moment
our own government could give a shit, and I really cant imagine farrage would have clue, wonder what his manifesto says about it... oh he doesnt have one

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/european-commission-to-take-legal-action-against-britain-over-high-levels-of-dangerous-gas-9142478.html

VW BMW were not always the Goliaths they are today and the French subsidised Car Industry made very sure it was not profitable to compete with them despite the numerous attempts various governments made to devalue our currency.

Another thing I'm confused about...

The anti-EU brigade on the one hand preach the mantra of free-trade and unbridled capitalism (lets ignore the leftwing antis for now, they're mostly from the right), yet on the other they come out with stuff like the above as if they want to go back to the beggar-thy-neighbour protectionist state controlled market of the 70s. Which is it? The two things are not compatible.

And on a more pragmatic viewpoint, do these people, assuming what they want is to prevent the French and the Germans from practising these protectionist policies, think that will be achieved by flouncing out of the EU and thereby renouncing any influence on policy that they might have had? Maybe their solution to this is to go back to the days where the countries of Europe continually fought wars to sort out these issues?

Can anyone point me to where the Germans broke the rules other than in some anti eu conspiracy fantasy?

The British car industry was destroyed by the British, going all the way back to awful management in the 50s and 60's, given a healthy push towards it deathbed by the union & management clashes of the 70's then finally killed by BA ownership (more awful management) it was already dead when BMW took over.

The current motor industry is quite clear, it wants the UK to be part of Europe, of course it wants it reformed to suit its needs, all industries do, and get away with it too much.

Can anyone point me to where the Germans broke the rules other than in some anti eu conspiracy fantasy?

They committed the cardinal Euro-sin in actually being really, really good at making stuff. and as well as this, Investing heavily in R&D and staff training, through a fully functioning banking system, instead of creaming off as much profit as possible to return as dividends to shareholders.

Its fundamentally wrong. In fact its dangerous. Its bordering on bloody Socialism. And therefore the personification of all evil!!!!

Also lets not forget, it wasn't that long ago the British consumers were being royally ripped off by the motor industry, cars were much more expensive in the UK than the rest of Europe. The UK government didn't care it was EU rules that balanced the markets.

The UK government didn't care it was EU rules that balanced the markets.

I think this discussion is heading towards a 'What have the Romans ever done for us' conclusion. Those bloody Europeans with their anti-competitive practices, consumer and human rights industry....(etc)

theyre at it again!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26866966

doubt farage bothered to turn up and vote, hes in it for the gravy train ratehr than making peoples lives better!

yup farage was busy elsewhere
http://www.votewatch.eu/en/roaming-on-public-mobile-communications-networks-within-the-union-motion-for-a-resolution-vote-legis.html

You know what now convinces me even more I should vote for him?

The lefty, hand wringing, tree embracing, back stabber loving, STW big hitters telling me not to. 😆

No one has told you how to vote, just pointing out that your delusions are not based in reality, and giving you a glimpse of what the EU actually does. Feel free to add some real examples of your own if you wish.

ps Am I a big hitter now? My mum will be so proud.

Didn't watch the debate but if Farage promised to send all this European pollution and Saharan sand back where it came from, he gets my vote.

The lefty, hand wringing, tree embracing, back stabber loving, STW big hitters telling me not to.

One thing I don't understand about the right wing viewpoint is mentioned in the above. 'Tree embracing' used as a pejorative statement, as if taking care of the environment is a stupid thing.

I can't say I understand a worldview that has no respect for nature or our surroundings. Barking mad.

Damn EU, trying to remove transaction/import taxes, allowing people to move about without visas, cracking down on cartels that rip us off, keeping farms running through difficult times, funding business regeneration in our economically devastated ex-mining towns, cracking down on international criminals and terrorists, using collective power to stop China and the USA from smashing up our industries with insane tariffs. Oh, and that little thing about stopping European countries from repeatedly devastating their populations with wars over borders. Damn EU.

The lefty, hand wringing, tree embracing, back stabber loving

You mean people with brains and the ability to use them?

And WTF is a 'back stabber'?

dazh - Member

And WTF is a 'back stabber'?

[img] [/img]
[i]People with brains and the ability to use them[/i]

I think derekfish is referring to ed beating dave in the leadership election
derek was obviously a big fan of Tony and/or extraordinary rendition and is sulking that the blairite milliband didnt get to lead the labour party 😀

Sadly I did get taken in by Blair in the 'it can only get better' days such a great opportunity wasted by a vacuous idiot manipulated by a mad woman and some evil advisers..

I know he met Thatcher but was she really one of his advisers?

Like Cleggy, JY, you need to read all of that report in which they insist in order to remain they want to see EU reform.

As to the Motor Industry, you may not have been old enough to spot the distinct lack of British Made cars on French roads

or the obstacles placed in the way of British manufacturers wishing to market to Europe,

Clearly the fact that other EU countries make cars shows the EU did not destroy this manufacturing base so it was incorrect to claim this

Sadly I did get taken in by Blair in the 'it can only get better' days such a great opportunity wasted by a vacuous idiot manipulated by a mad woman and some evil advisers..

Ah right, I thought he was talking about gays for a second 😀

Derek, I too have little liking for Ed Miliband, but that's mainly because he has proven completely incapable and unwilling to grow a pair of balls and take on the established corporate oligarchy (half measures on energy companies and Rupert Murdoch aside). If your problem is that he is not tory enough like Blair, then I think you've been voting for the wrong party.