EV running costs?

That's quite a low cost per kWh you're getting there

My ev charge plan is 8 cents per kWh at night and free from 11 am through till 2. As I only get to use the free at the weekend I didn’t count that.  They have elevated rates for the rest of the day to catch you out - put the powerwall takes care of that.

I get free charging at uni, so thus far 1400ish miles at £0 per mile. Happy days! Tyres will all need replacing soon by the looks of things, not sure how much they'll be, not cheap I imagine.

What makes EV tyres so expensive compared to other tyres?

Can EV tyres not be used on ICE motors and vice versa?

I get free charging at uni, so thus far 1400ish miles at £0 per mile. Happy days! Tyres will all need replacing soon by the looks of things

I'm assuming that's a typo and 14,000 - still time to edit.

You can use exactly the same tyres, but EV tyres sacrifice a little durability for efficiency,  plus there's some extra weight.

Over my 5 years, very, very low total ccoss . Reduced fuel,  servicing, vehicle tax, parking,

To make stuff easy for my kids in their old fashioned petrol cars, who have no idea of MPG or litres/100km, I calculated how far £1 takes you. That way if they want to do a 100 mile round trip to the seaside for the day they know it'll cost around £15 in fuel because they get about 7 miles per pound. FWIW quite similar in my diesel but that's diesel and most of the miles are dual carriageway at steady 69mph (honest!)

I went to the local Kia dealer recently as they were running an 'ask the experts' promotion and talked to them in the same terms. They reckon depending on driving style / type of driving* and of course the car you get about 3-4 miles per kwh. They also showed me typical costs of charging which they reckon can go from 7.5p/kwh if you use Octopus's lowest overnight rate (can get cheaper still if you eg: have your own solar but then you have investment cost) - so that that would mean £1 takes you 40-50 miles. Fast charge at a motorway services could cost 10x that rate, and get you down to 4-5 miles/£ (but in fairness, do the same calc for ICE using a motorway service station per litre price and you wouldn't be dissimilar)

They reckoned servicing was a lot cheaper, because very little engine or gearbox in comparison. I found the info pretty interesting and although I reckon for semi-bangernomics I'm aiming to get another 2-3 years out of my 96k mile / 8yo Sportage, then an EV is looking on the cards.

* I found this interesting - counter to an ICE, they reckoned efficiency was higher on urban driving because the 'engine braking' regen of stop-start driving harvests energy back into the battery. Whereas on motorway driving it's all out. I sort of understand thermodynamics, and can't quite work that out, it might be right about reharvesting but does efficiency of movement outweigh aerodynamics, etc. Anyone with an EV can compare range for different sorts of driving?

I’ve done 47,000 km, and just about to need 2 new tyres.

Wow, my ID3 needed new rears at 7,000 miles and the fronts need changing now at 11,000 miles.

Had my EV for 4 months now. My running costs (Ireland) so far are €120 for the 6,000km covered, plus €900 for the home charger. Diesel would of cost about €700 for similar distance.

My daily commute is 70/75km and I can get this charged overnight in my 2hr cheap charging window of 10cent per kw. (17cent outside of this but never needed so far) so €1.40 per night and about 5/5.5 km per kw which is not great. My rough man maths is, my old diesel was about €80 to fill up (45ltr @ €1.80ish per litre) and got me about 700/750km (@ about 45mpg) so about 11 cent per km. The EV is coming in at 2cent per km.

to cover my 20,000km per year the diesel was around €2,285, or  €190 per month. The EV will be €400 a year, or €33 a month. Even factoring in the €900 outlay for the charger and the odd fast charge out and about (which works out about same a diesel per km) it is a huge saving.

@theotherjonv Yeah urban driving in an EV is more efficient, as you say, counter to ICE.

My Kia is getting 4.9kwh/m, other driving styles will vary of course.

No typo, we have put 1400 miles on our EV since we've had it. Bought it secondhand, probably should've looked a bit more closely at it's tyre wear when negotiating a price!

Incidentally if you happen to be anywhere near Cheshire you're free to have a nose around our Kia eNiro.....and I'll likely be able to give you some more balanced 'expert' info that the salesman at Kia (I'm not an expert, but am about to finish an MSc in a related area).

EDIT: just seen your bit about comparison.....my figures are based on the last 2 months only, and aren't properly measured....urban seems to get 5-5.2kwh/m....motorway/dual carriageway 4.0 at best, and I rarely go above 60mph. I'd be interested to hear if stuff like a Tesla model 3 etc is more efficient on motorways purely based on how much aerodynamic they look.

What's that ID3 doing - eating them? What tyres are they? I'd be going thro' tyres every 6 months at that rate

Tesla costs over 4yrs and 30,000 miles are zero for maintenance.

Two rear tyres were £280, wipers £20 and £50 on an MOT.

99% of my charging is at 7p kwh, car, does over 4miles per kwh with a heavy right foot.

Tax is zero.

It feels like cheating. Tbh it probably is.

We would have been spending £90/mo on diesel now we spend about £9 on electricity.  Between 1.5 and 1.8p per mile. We did 23k miles in our first car and the tyres looked pretty fresh so no reason to assume they wouldn't do another 23k. We haven't done enough miles in our subsequent cars to assess wear. We changed the ones on our most recent EV from the crap ones the dealer fitted on the front. One of the rears I strongly suspect was the original tyre with 73k on it.

Meanwhile the diesel is eating tyres, I'll be lucky to get 20k from the rears.

Our particular car needs a coolant change every 4 years which is about £500, otherwise servicing from the main dealer is £70 or £140.

 efficiency of movement outweigh aerodynamics?

What do you mean by that, the more aerodynamic an object is, the more efficient it is at moving. The resistance increases non linear, its proportional to the square of the speed.   And at higher speeds this dominates the efficiency equation.

Factory fitted tyres, spoke to the VW ID specialist at local dealer and they reckon they last between 6-8000 miles and talking to other ID drivers at work they are getting the same. So yes, on average every six months i'll have new rear tyres. Glad  I'm not paying for them.

 efficiency of movement outweigh aerodynamics?

What do you mean by that

Yeah, not well phrased. I mean getting a car up to speed (and fighting against aero) Vs speed up, slow down, overcome inertia over and over. In an ice car constant cruising at say 60 mph is more efficient and I can't quite work out why an EV is the other way round, but happy to accept it is.

Just about to get rear tyres replaced on my i4, with 10k miles. Thankfully part of the lease deal as they an expensive ones… seems to eat them pretty fast.

even that's not well phrased on re-reading. I mean, I CAN understand that the reharvesting balances out enough but I'm surprised at the efficiency, etc. Happy that it is that way, but surprised in a 'Wow! Cool!' sort of way.

(I’m not an expert, but am about to finish an MSc in a related area).

You're an expert!

Vw really aren't selling themselves here - they're Bridgestones?

I've just got normal ecocontacts for summer and viking contacts for winters

Wow new tyres at 10k miles and less, yet at the same time increased tyre particle pollution by EVs is not an issue?

yet at the same time increased tyre particle pollution by EVs is not an issue?

Not sure anyone on this thread has claimed that?

No typo, we have put 1400 miles on our EV since we’ve had it. Bought it secondhand, probably should’ve looked a bit more closely at it’s tyre wear when negotiating a price!

That makes more sense. I read your original as if from new and wondered if you drive everywhere sideways!

As an EV owner for several years is it reasonable to separate running costs from capital outlay costs?

I'm torn because we've had reasonable lease deals which aren't really the same as capital but somewhere in there - is an elevated cost over ICE version.

My mate bought a £50,000 used Tesla to enjoy cheap running costs and even he admits he's ignoring the actual cost so he can pay 7p/kWh.

But I suppose that's the deal with early adopters and you need them for the market to gain traction.

I suppose that in this day and age, fairly few people buy a car outright, certainly more expensive EVs etc?

It is a good point though. Our eNiro 4 is a 70 plate, it'd have been around 42k new. We paid 15k for it. A search of auto trader suggests that similar age/mileage ICE Niro's are basically the same price.

After a few years with bangers and doing a barn conversion, we were in a position of having very little capital to put into a reliable a newer car. PX of our old banger got us to £200pcm payments on PCP for the eNiro. We'd have been spending at least £100, probably closer to £150 per month on fuel previously. Obviously my free charging situation means that the sums really add up, but even at 7kWh or whatever deal we could get, the savings would soon add up.

Obviously they're going to have to introduce a road fund license for them at some point. (I think that it's starting to come in on new ones?) Probably needs to be retrospectively applied to stuff like my car if we're honest to help fund a scrappage scheme of sort for people in older none ULEZ compliant cars.

Probably needs to be retrospectively applied to stuff like my car

It has been 2025 onwards . Band A zero rate has been scrapped even retrospectively

Just for maybe a bit of balance, I had an ID3 for 2 years from new and all the tyres were changed at 25000 just before it was returned, they were very close to the markers so not totally bald. 80% of my driving was commuting up and down a trunk road tho. They were the 19" wheels with conti ecocontact6

As an EV owner for several years is it reasonable to separate running costs from capital outlay costs?

Mid range EVs used are now cheaper than petrol equivalents.

Wow new tyres at 10k miles and less, yet at the same time increased tyre particle pollution by EVs is not an issue?

There clearly is an issue there as EVs aren't that flippin heavy. Mine is 1600kg, which is a bit heavier than the same car in petrol form but not at all heavy for a modern car. There must be something wrong with an iD3 wearing tyres out in 8k miles, that's insane. They weigh 1770-1935kg.

There must be something wrong with an iD3 wearing tyres out in 8k miles, that’s insane. They weigh 1770-1935kg.

People liking the feeling of accelerating fast I expect.

44,000 miles on a Tesla Model 3. I’ve averaged 232 Wh/mile. Half of the charging is at home (7.5p/kWh), and the other half at public chargers (20 - 60p / kWh).

So £382 + £2,295 =£2,677.00

My diesel car would have cost £8,050 at 40mpg.

It’s still on the original tyres which have 5mm of tread left, and the only parts replaced have been the pollen filter and a set of windscreen wiper blades.

People liking the feeling of accelerating fast I expect.

Ha, I take it you have never driven a basic ID3. You couldn't accelerate fast even if you wanted to. Slowest EV I've ever driven.

I still can't get over how cheap ev mileage is... It's a double bonus as not only is the car's 'fuel' 7p/kWh, but the rest of the house is whilst the car charges... So it's probably saving me money!

If ... You ignore the £20+k the car cost (though... £60k RRP, and it's a ****ing rocket!) and, I guess, the £810 on new all season tyres at 40k miles...

But... Nice things are nice, and EVs ruddy rock!

DrP

Should also flag that diesel over the same period would have cost $5600, so around $5033 fuel savings.
if I include the cost of the loan, that puts me slightly behind a ice vehicle….

What makes EV tyres so expensive compared to other tyres?

? I don’t think that the costs of  tyres we’ve used on our EVs are any different in real terms since 2018 than those we used on ICE vehicles before.

cars are expensive to own and run.

one thing I am sure about is that I would not willingly get an ICE vehicle when I could afford an EV. Like chalk and cheese. And I know which I would prefer in a sandwich.

what I would like is that ICE vehicles reflected their true costs. Both in excise and in environmental effects.

The reason EVs are more efficient in town is mainly that ICEs are much less efficient at low load and speed, especially when you add in idling and trundling forward. This more than offsets the extra work you have to do against the air on motorways. Also you put in kinetic energy when you accelerate but that is lost when you brake.

EVs are less efficient at really low speeds because the motor still has an efficiency curve but mainly because the drain of the car's electrics and AC etc are fixed so the slower you drive the more these take over in the miles/kWh calculation. But over maybe 10mph these already vanish into insignificance.

Efficiency at speed is different for an EV vs an ICE due to the lack of a gearbox.  The faster you go the more power you require to overcome drag.   Peak power for motors is at around 50% of RPM, once you go beyond this, efficiency drops.  For a small motor, this shows on the motorway.  The Taycan uses a gearbox to get around this which is why Taycan’s frequently exceed their WLTP range estimates.  Another way around this is a very large motor, another is careful application of multiple motors.  But each of these adds weight (and cost) and a slight loss of efficiency, especially at lower speeds.  For most people, trips where they need the maximum range at speed are a distinct minority, so it’s not prioritised in design.

I notice everyone is taking the cost of the vehicle as a sunk cost.

can definitely appreciate variable costs are lower, but how about fixed costs, what's the breakeven on the difference in purchase price

Also how are older second hand Ears fairing?  I thought there were worries about having to replace the battery at great cost.

we buy our cars outright, but spend between 10-15k and keep them till they die.  Wondering about an EV as most of our driving is also urban, with a few longer trips a month

Just on autotrader.  Wow Tesla prices have dropped haven’t they!  2020 model s for 15k?  Surely not?

Re efficiency.

It’s basic physics at heart.

The main vehicle loss is aerodynamic drag, which increases with the square of speed.

For EVs there are low “fixed” losses, and the motor efficiency curve is quite flat, so over above 20mph is efficiency drops off. An EV also recovers a large proportion of braking energy so the stop start nature of slower speed driving like in cities has less of an impact. Overall result - much better efficiency at lower speeds.

For ICEs, the same aero drag applies. An ICE has higher “fixed” losses - mostly waste heat and power needed to keep the engine and all its ancillaries spinning. It’s also got a very non-linear efficiency curve. The engine has its max efficiency point at fairly high power levels vs the power a car actually needs to run (one of the reasons why large engines cars get worse MPG vs small ones - they run further away from the max efficiency point more of the time). They also lose all braking energy to heat via the brakes so stop start driving is bad for efficiency. The net result of all that is the peak efficiency point where the factors balance out is about 50mph mph - vs slower speeds is increasing but the engine is also running closer to the max efficiency point and the fixed losses are getting less important due to then higher number of miles covered per unit of time. Above this 50mph ish point aero drag effects increases faster than the other factors hence efficiency drops.

I notice everyone is taking the cost of the vehicle as a sunk cost.

Just buy second-hand. A used Model 3 that's just ticked over 3 years is now about £20k - still expensive for a car, but close to a third of the new price. You'll still have the powertrain warranty for another 5 years too.

Mine was a salary sacrifice car so the sunk cost is pretty negligible since it fixed the awkward (but nice to have) marginal tax situation of >62% on every pound earned.

Give over do VW tyres need changing every 8k miles, maybe if you insist on launching it for the electric torque and no shifting giggles but normal driving no way. I've done 18k on mine in an ID4 and they've still got plenty of life.

I'm saving 13p mile ish on fuel compared to where I was on diesel, almost exclusively charging from home on intelligent go. Other costs are the same or lower, servicing is £150 but only every 2 years, insurance is basically the same, no adblue, no ulez issues and no tax.  It is more expensive but that because of the choice of vehicle at the time and the savings offset that, with the choice and prices available now that wouldn't be an issue.

Prompted by this thread I've tried to work out our spend.

We bought a 3 year old eNiro July last year. We've put around 12k miles on it this year. Trip computer shows 4.1 miles/kWh over this time. Charging efficiency is around 80%.

The vast majority of the 12k is local driving, realistically probably averaging 20 - 30 miles per hour. We've done maybe 10 longer trips over the year 150 - 250 miles each way. Some of these we've had free charging at the far end. I rarely drive over 60 mph.

By my reckoning we've put around 750 kWhs into the car on rapids - £400. 2900 kWhs at home - £300. I reckon we would have spent around £2200 in petrol vs £700 electricity.

We had the battery go flat when we went on holiday last year, had to call out the AA to start the car. Not sure if it's fair to count this as a cost to the EV but likely if it had been our old car we could have push started it (or would have gotten someone to jump start it). This cost us £200.

New battery and battery booster to prevent this happening again £125, again not sure it's fair to count this as a cost against an EV but likely in the old car we'd have replaced the battery only.

Out insurance when up from 260 for an old Volvo s40 to £520 on the eNiro and up again £540 on year 2. I'm sure the s40 price would have gone up but equally sure there's a big differential here.

We got free servicing year 1, bought a Kia service plan for year 4/5 - cost £135/year. MOT was £50. This is significantly less than we were spending to keep our old Volvo on the road though the Volvo was a 53 plate, I don't expect the eNiro will get to 19 years old.

On the tyre side given discussion above, when we bought the car the fronts needed replaced, we put Goodyear 4Seasons on the front. These are about half worn now so I'd expect to get around 25k mile out of them. The rears hardly wear at all, when we bought the car they had around 4.5mm tread on them, now at 3.5mm.

Having guestimated the charging costs above, it obvious after writing it down but it was pretty shocking how a handful of rapid charges has cost significantly more that the majority of our home charging.

Note that we have not installed an EVSE - we do all home charging on a granny charger. This mostly suits us, there have been a few times where I've had to charge at peak rates as I couldn't get enough into the car on the granny charge in the off-peak window. I reckon a EVSE would cost us on the order of £1500 to install. Seems massively expensive to me for what is essentially a glorified socket and I've read many anecdotes of EVSEs failing.

 I thought there were worries about having to replace the battery at great cost.

I think this was only really the very first few EVs... Early nissan LEAFs etc.

It seems that, past the 24/30kWh LEAFs, your car (as in..the metal and spinny parts) will die before the battery does..

DrP

EDIT - "I reckon a EVSE would cost us on the order of £1500 to install".. prob more likely £900-1000..