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England's problem seems to be that for some time the press attach the term 'World Class' to players that quite clearly are not. I honestly have not seen much football recently, so ask this honestly, is Jack Wilshere going to make a difference?
THM +1. I stopped shy of saying it to my wife in case it jinxed him but he'd already done that.
Look, it has nothing to do with celebrities, or money, or bling. 14 players ran their nuts off against a superior side for 120 mins tonight. All credit to Roy for seeing that we lack technique, and trying to build a system that mitigates our weaknesses. At moments we looked half decent but the reality is that our game technically does not stand up to close examination, and if you concede possession 70:30 to almost anyone from the upper echelons of world football, you are going to be up against it. Clearly we lack the players that can hit 720 passes in a game. If we had them, don't you think we'd also play that way? And even if we have 2 or 3 of them in Rooney, Gerrard, etc. the system to play like Spain relies on everyone being able to pass pass pass and understanding how to make space and angles to always give the player someone to pass to. Watch Spain on Wednesday, it's not as if they hit 700 match winning passes, most are 10 yards or less to a player that has made space and they just keep the ball until an opening occurs.
I was talking to the head coach of the local kids team yesterday. The FA is handing down edicts about the structure of kids football - and at young age groups (up to 11yo I think he said) the FA want kids to play small sided games - 5v5, then 7v7, then 9v9 through the age groups - all with the intent that players get more ball time and become comfortable passing and controlling the thing. The parents hate it because they don't understand it, they just want to see 22 7 year olds on a full sized pitch chasing the same ball around. It's not the fault of the 14 that represented England tonight, or the current management structure, this goes back 20-odd years, and will take another 3 or 4 world cup cycles to work through.
Hats off to Roy and the team. Found wanting, but not in heart and effort.
Anybody know who sang that song the BBC ended with? It was a folk-y sounding cover of Linkin Park's In The End but I can't find any references on Google.
[url= http://haveyouheardofus.com/ ]haveyouheardofus.com/[/url]
when Roy plays the same tactics in wc qualifying against poland, ukraine, moldova, you will see why lfc fans soon lost patients.
Terry, Johnson, Gerrard, Good performances, ashley young was terrible & pen miss summed his tournament up!
Roll on next season & club footy!
Agree best side went through, Germany would have battered us. Even though we have improved I'm not sure Roys the man because it was his decision to play 4 4 2 that was at the very heart of Pirlo running the game and his post match comment about doing our best to deny Pirlo space was bollox pure and simply, Pirlo had enough time on the ball to read the Sunday Times.
Onwards and sideways 😉
Roll on next season & club footy!
bet you're not a Leeds fan 😉
I am 🙁
Can't argue with that tbh - Take Italy to pens, albeit luckily, in the QF. Roy couldn't have done much better with what he had available.
Rooney was a study in mediocrity, again. Miles off the pace - was he injured at the close of the season? He's had bad luck with fitness coinciding with major tournaments, but there come's a point where you just have to recognise he's a 2nd / 3rd tier international player.
Can't argue with any of that. Glad Italy went through - we would have been put to the sword well and truly by the pace and invention of Germany.
Rooney really didn't have the zip of old. Looked fat and weary. Ashley Young looked like a League One player. Ferguson must be looking at that wondering what shape they're going to report back in.
a victory for football.
well done italy.
Roll on next season & club footy!
COME ON TERRIERS!!!! 
For me last night there were only 4 England players on the pitch. Hart, Terry, Lester and occassionaly Rooney.
I think that's a little harsh. I think they gave it a good shot against a clearly better side - and took them to penalties. I didn't see any lack of effort - maybe a lack of ability.
Hopefully Germany will stuff 'em in the semis. Should be two cracking games with any bit of luck.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-18576404 ]Oh dear.[/url] 🙁
Normal evening in Bedford...
they gave it a good shot against a clearly better side - and took them to penalties. I didn't see any lack of effort - maybe a lack of ability.
+1 - you do still often get the feeling that England play worse than the sum of their parts though.
Oh dear.
Indeed. What a bunch of cretins.
Bedford sounds great!
you do still often get the feeling that England play worse than the sum of their parts though
It has always been the same.
Shame about Rooney - no idea why he doesn't perform to the best of his ability at the big tournaments. He should take a look at Ronaldo and how he duplicates club form for his country - and brim-full of passion when he plays too.
Thought we looked a much better team in the first two games without Rooney in them.Young was terrible for the whole thing,couldn't believe when Milner went off & he stayed on last night.At least Milner was rolling his sleeves up & trying to get in the game !We gave them a game for the first 20 minutes or so & then seemed to run out of steam,Gerrard cramping after only 70 minutes was a shock too ...
He should take a look at Ronaldo and how he duplicates club form for his country - and brim-full of passion when he plays too.
Ronaldo hasn't played anything like his ability at major tournaments.
He should take a look at Ronaldo and how he duplicates club form for his country
Ronnie has been utter shite for his country up until last week. Rooney did it the other way round. Started well, then its been downhill ever since. I think Rooney should have earned his selection rather than being there by default. We looked better without him
Better attitude, spirit, and effort from all the England squad and management than last time.
But not sure those tactics will ever be good enough to win at that level.
Any system that requires our players to run twice as far as the opposition, chasing shadows for two hours, will come unstuck against a half-decent side.
They had a few good players, no more than us though, but it was made comfortable for them to make the ball do the work. Ours were shattered before extra time by 90 mins of chasing.
No point playing two mids right in front of the back four when their playmaker's sitting 25 yds further back with no pressure. No point playing 2 wingers then trying to go through the middle all night. no point going long to Andy Carroll then not getting anyone close enough for the second ball or knockdown. And taking off your two players who look like they can run marathons, milner and wellbeck, whilst playing for extra time is beyond stupid.
Every top team is moving towards getting at least 5 players in midfield, 6 for spain, we can't compete with 2. This talk about lack of ability is nonsense, our players are no worse than the Italians. We just set up to give them a platform through poor tactics. We even made Diamanti look good.
The did try their best it is just their best is not good enough.
They worked as hard as they could and did put in effort, this was not lacking talent was.
Very few of the England squad would make a European 24 man squad IMHO - Cole, Rooney and Hart - would be the only contenders so how can you expect to win when that is the case? Pirlo would get in the Spain team and the European squad.
As for Rooney not his best again but he is not a one man team to the extent that Ronaldo [ not performed at International level either nor has messi really]is. he is not going to to get the ball and beat three men then bang it in. He needs good players around him and that is the problem.
The support attackers were weak.
Young had a terrible tournament and Milner is a defensive winger at best. They need actual attacking players on the wing and someone who can ping passes around to get the best out of Rooney.
Hardly Rooneys fault they lost and they also played better teams when he was on the pitch as well.
Hodgson played to not get humilatingly defeated IMHO rather than actually win.
We should have dropped Milner back to centre mid for his energy (like City do sometimes), and moved Gerard 20 yds forward where he can do some damage in attack and pressure Pirlo in defense.
Would have meant one of Rooney or Wellbeck (or both) playing wider, but they've done it for ManU in Europe away alot, and Young going off.
But as grum said, [i]England play worse than the sum of their parts[/i]. We played to the opositions strengths.
My nephew's team won the local under 13s league last year for the second time with a coach who screams at them to GET IT AWAY. From an earlier age they had been allowed to 'rush' the ball. 5 players going for the ball.
Nobody is taught to find space, provide an outlet early enough. Be comfortable in possession.
You could put god in charge of the national team but IMO they'll still win nothing while there's people coaching juniors with this approach.
Obviously I'm generalising and may get flamed for it but as with most generalisations, It's generally true.
Billy - exactly the point of my post last night.
i disagree with people who say that our players are not good enough. Individually, i reckon, Rooney, gerrard, cole, - damn it most of them - could play in the Spanish side. Because they have the skills to pass pass pass like Spain do, when they have always got an outlet for the ball. But collectively, we don't play that way, and we won't until the old dinosaur coaches realise it.
When I have seen Ronaldo he has impressed me - perhaps I don't watch that much international football?
But he has been outstanding in this tournament so far.
As for Rooney not his best again but he is not a one man team to the extent that Ronaldo [ not performed at International level either nor has messi really]is. he is not going to to get the ball and beat three men then bang it in. He needs good players around him and that is the problem.
The support attackers were weak.
Hmmm, true to some extent but he just looked poor regardless of what anyone else around him was doing - his touch was awful. Even binners can admit he was shite and he should have had to earn his place back in the side. England looked better without him.
Very few of the England squad would make a European 24 man squad IMHO - Cole, Rooney and Hart
Gerrard would have a much better shout than Rooney on performances in this tournament (and that's despite being almost anonymous in the last game). Also less likely to kick someone for no reason and get sent off (plus Gerrard's quite good at diving for penalites 😉 ). And again, it pains me to admit it but quite a few teams would probably be happy to have John Terry in defence.
The one thing Roy has been good at managing this summer is expectation. He told us not to expect much, and delivered.
He's got a lot of people repeating a mantra of
[i]"we're not skilled enough, they're technically better than us"[/i]
And it means most of these parrots are now thankful for our victories over Sweden and Ukraine, when we should be seriously worried if we don't beat them with our players.
We've had a champions league finalist every year bar one since 2005, and one year both. Its absolute nonsense to suggest we don't have top quality players, all it does is allow Roy to paint this as expectation satisfied.
The sad thing is because failure was predicted, it will be accepted, he'll keep his job, and we'll go to Brazil and play the same way.
IMO, John Terry's had his best tournament for England and let no-one down. (But the tactics of giving them the ball and defending deep do tend to cover some of his weakness on the turn). In fact, the whole back 5 have all been great, especially when you consider the amount of constant defending they've had to do.
Personally, after deciding to take him, I'm glad he started Rooney. He needed some game time to find form after being out for a while. And if he had hit form, he's worth his place. That gamble was justified by the potential returns.
However, 60 mins would have been enough in each game though, when it wasn't working out and he looked tired and frustrated he should have been the one subbed. Might have given him a little kick up the backside he needed (against Ukraine) and he'd have come back better against Italy. kept on through reputation.
Gerrard would have a much better shout than Rooney on performances in this tournament
Sorry oversight on my part
when he is turned and he has to run it is like watching children playy football..i half expect him to put his hand on the ball if I am honest.quite a few teams would probably be happy to have John Terry in defence
I agree Rooneys performances were not his best but he was not alone in that respect[ subbing not a bad idea but still your only fwd likely to have amoment of brilliance. Yes he and young were the worst performers.
the whole cast of Midfielders were utterly useless...
I can knock the ball backwards and sideways and chase shadows all day . . .
Gerrard is better utilised further forward, he's not a ball retainer or dictator of play . . . he's past his best by 5 years . . . 4/10
Scott Parker is just a lively little body, . . but nothing else . . 5/10
Milner is just slow ponderous and has no skill or guile at all, every time he crosses the ball it's like he scuffs it . . . 3/10
and Ashley Young is just far too lightweight, . .he just isn't bothered, . .i doubt he's even that bothered he missed the penalty, . . . .he is useless, . . he's not a bad finisher, . . . but that's nt what he's really in the team for . . . putrid 2/10
the statistics from the game are an utter embarrassment . . .
it;s shocking that Oxlaid whatshis name didn't see some more action, . . he's the only player you saw during this tournament who looked like he could actually beat a man . . .
and Rooney well, . .he's just not that good is he, . . . very overrated, he'd be better playing behind a front two . . .
and i thought the world cup was bad . . . lol
i'm glad we lost, . . we didn't deserve anything out of that game.
lol, Italy had 36 attempts on goal (only 8 on target though). If their finishing had been even half-way decent we would have been utterly, utterly humiliated.
Whilst Terry is good at what he *can* do, what he *can't* do is run very quickly and that is the root of lots of our problems - we sit deep and invite people on to us. If he had more pace we would be more confident pushing up more and causing teams their own problems.
Rodwell, The Ox, Wilshere, Hart, Lescott, Walcott, Sturridge, Welbeck, Richards and a couple more.
The nucleus of a very good squad. The problem is the 100mph premier league. Ever wondered why so many of the average european players come over but the very, very best usually stay away? Unless the PL changes or more of our talented youngsters go play in spain, italy & germany we'll continue to underperform.
mf,
totally agree with your description of Terry's strengths and "inadequacies" but its not the cause of our problems, just incidental.
The reason we sit deep and surrender territory and possession is Roy Hodgson's tactical plan. He choses the formations, personell, and tactics to fit his gameplan; the players play to his plan.
Lescott's a pretty quick defender, and Jaglielka's very quick too. They weren't played together because Terry's more suitable for Roy's plan of defending on our 6yd line.
I'm not big footie-er but even I could recognise that Milner and Young were bloody awful in every game. Oh, and who the bloody hell is that Henderson bloke? What's his job?
What's his job?
In the current system being utilised by our great leader, Mr Hodgson, I believe his role is known as [i]Shadow Chaser[/i].
This current system has [i]1 goalkeeper[/i], 2 [i]non-handling goalblockers[/i], and 8 [i]shadow chasers[/i].
i hate to say it but the outlook with the current crop of players has the look of the turnip taylor era.
do i not like that.
We want English players to be able to beat Spain, Italy, Germany, etc? Not a chance as long as footie is coached the way it is at the moment. And as long as the Premier League acts like it has no responsibility for the success of the national side but only acts in the interests of it's own avarice, England will be forever a quarter-finals side.
You speak for yourself there paddy i want them to habitually fail in penalty shootouts for ever more 😆
And as long as the Premier League acts like it has no responsibility for the success of the national side
+1
One of the best paid leagues with some of the best (overseas) players in the world yet we seemingly do little to nurture our own players.
+1One of the best paid leagues with some of the best (overseas) players in the world yet we seemingly do little to nurture our own players.
It's the same as a lot of people/organisations these days, why take time & work for success when you can buy it instantly.
As much as I dislike ManU there won't ever be a team of like the Beckham/Scholes/Giggs/Neville coming through again. The only person in the Prem who appears to take development seriously is Arsene Wenger but he can only take players so far until they get seduced by even more money & even he still buys in hot prospects at 18-22 years old to try & impart his philosophy on them.
I don't think we'll go back to Taylor era - no one in the England team is as bad as Carlton Palmer & with players like Adam Johnson, Keiron Gibbs, Jack Wilshere, Wellbeck, Sturridge, Cahill & Joe Hart we have the nucleus of a good team.
I just hope for once the FA actually do something about it - the same way Germany did after we beat them in 66 & then again around 2000 when they limply went out of tournaments. Unfortunately the numbers of coaches holding UEFA badges in this country is still about 3000, compared to Spain's 24,000 & Germany's 35,000 (figures from bbc website) until we actually teach the kids control touch & technique, not hoof it to the freakishly big 7 year old in the team we will continue to fail..
mf , p j
Good article in the independent this morning with Benitez saying something very similar to you two, and establishing a U21 premier league instead of the reserve teams.
Rioja open, check.
Chocolate digestive tapas, check.
Bank account with no money, check.
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¡A por ellos!
Good game this...
Until the ref sticks his nose in... 🙄