I've written and deleted two long posts trying to present a balanced view on the stance of the political parties - especially Labour as per above arguments - but I can't.
There is no compromise position that makes sense and no positioning by either party will not cause them some electoral issues. Given this I can't now see any reason why Labour should not go full 2nd ref despite the temporary electability issues it will cause in many of its heartlands.
Beyond this my hope is that, given Brexit divides parties that and now we are at the crunch, that MPs will begin to step outside party boundaries and vote with heir consciences and the national interest.
Whatever happens I think we may well be at year zero of a new politics
@Cougar isnt "respecting the referendum" - or at least recognising that it can't be ignored however flawed- part of the reasoning why a 2nd ref is route being argued for remain as oppose to just revocation of A50 and binning brexit?
Edit
Brexit is shit, but it’s happening. It’s happening because people voted for it. The labour party, being a democratic party must respect that, as must everyone else who values democracy. Nothing will be gained by repeating the mistakes that resulted in people voting for brexit, and the snobbery and condescension which many on the remain side are now displaying is not only disgraceful, but ultimately counter productive. The answer lies in listening to people, and addressing the many issues that brexit voters of all persuasions are concerned about. Brexit put simply, is not the problem, but the result of the historic and continuing marginalisation of huge swathes of our society, and that’s a deliberate result of 40 years of neoliberal policies forced upon them by national and supranational governments.
Brexit won't solve any of the problems caused by unfair wealth distribution and neo-liberal policies over the last 40 years. It will make all of them worse - supercharged austerity is on the way. That's why Brexit has to be opposed.
May herself recognised the "left behinds" in her first speech as PM
But the mission to make Britain a country that works for everyone means more than fighting these injustices. If you’re from an ordinary working class family, life is much harder than many people in Westminster realise. You have a job but you don’t always have job security. You have your own home, but you worry about paying a mortgage. You can just about manage but you worry about the cost of living and getting your kids into a good school.
If you’re one of those families, if you’re just managing, I want to address you directly.
I know you’re working around the clock, I know you’re doing your best, and I know that sometimes life can be a struggle. The government I lead will be driven not by the interests of the privileged few, but by yours.
We will do everything we can to give you more control over your lives. When we take the big calls, we’ll think not of the powerful, but you. When we pass new laws, we’ll listen not to the mighty but to you. When it comes to taxes, we’ll prioritise not the wealthy, but you. When it comes to opportunity, we won’t entrench the advantages of the fortunate few. We will do everything we can to help anybody, whatever your background, to go as far as your talents will take you.
Unfortunately its about the only decent speech she has ever made and she quickly backslid, reneged or U-turned on everything.
Brexit solves nothing, its like demolishing your house because the boilers not working.
that is not how democracy works in the UK. Never has been, never will.
It's not how it worked until Dave gave the referendum. That was when it stopped working the old way, for all practical purposes. That broke the system, because of what it implied.
Understandably there's a lot of focus on "the process" at the moment. Some might argue that the PM herself is so focussed on the process that she has forgotten why we are doing this.
But let's not forget the fact that after 3 years, there are still virtually no positive reasons for exiting the EU, even less for exiting without a deal. This is why there are so many folks who feel so strongly about this and will happily see the result of the referendum overturned and 'democracy threatened'
If it had been a case of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other with regards to reasons for staying in or leaving, and leave had won, then I think a lot of us would have been more happy to roll over and accept the result. We'd have been losing out on some things but gaining elsewhere. However that is clearly not the case... pretty much everything the leave campaign promised was either hopelessly optimistic, downright untrue or has since been debunked.
Given all of that, I would suggest that rolling over and letting the worst happen is undemocratic in itself. Allowing something to happen that is clearly not in the interests of the country and the people that voted for it is not the basis of our democracy.
That is why folks don't agree with the view of dazh etc. I agree with a lot of the analysis, just not the conclusion.
I agree that it isn't going to be pretty but there is not a way forward now that is.
However, dazh (sorry not picking on you dazh but you are quite vocal on this) is quite right in that unless some of the reasons why folk voted for this shitshow are not addressed then who knows what we are going to end up with and all of the pain will have been for nothing.
^^^
yeah agree with that.
But, there's no going back is there? (wherever we go. Personally I hope to come out of the shower and find the last couple of years has just been a dream.)
The answer lies in listening to people
Who is listening to the people that didn't vote to leave? Because near as half didn't.
And the people 18-20 yrs old.
For those interested, 3x more folk signed the revoke than the no deal petition now...
Who is listening to the people that didn’t vote to leave? Because near as half didn’t.
That's the reason why a petition that has sat doing nothing for a couple of weeks all of a sudden went ballistic...
as soon as the PM told us all that she knew how we felt, folks started signing...
She doesn't listen at all and ever since the day of the result the 48% and the young people have been totally ignored - it has all been about how she can appease the headbangers, not about how she can reasonably bring the country forwards into some kind of consensus.
She deserves the mess she now finds herself in.
Amber Rudd is now openly trolling May on twitter
https://twitter.com/AmberRuddHR/status/1108775911506305025?s=19
And all you expats on the forum. What do you think of my ideas? How do you feel in Germany, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Holland, Scandinavia… . Are you as good a British ambassador as you were 3 years ago?
Belgium here. I believe we hold the world record for the longest time without a government :). Sometimes issues just can't be achieved. If the original vote had been for a gold bar for every voter then clearly it would have won and equally clearly it wouldn't have been achievable. I think we are in the same situation where although the country clearly voted for something it wasn't a 'thing' that was achievable in the way that people imagined. I suspect the UK is ready to challenge for a world record....
isnt “respecting the referendum” – or at least recognising that it can’t be ignored however flawed- part of the reasoning why a 2nd ref is route being argued for remain as oppose to just revocation of A50 and binning brexit?
Possibly, who knows. As I've said (repeatedly) before though, I think another referendum is as stupid an idea as the last one, what should happen in a parliamentary democracy is that parliament acts in a country's best interests irrespective of what its people might think they want.
However, a referendum is what got us into this shitshow and thanks to "the will of the people" rhetoric being hammered out at every turn it's looking increasingly likely that holding another one might be the only way out of it again. Make no mistake though, this is **** all to do with democracy and everything to do with appeasing the great unwashed (with a side order of saving face).
Mob rule is not "democracy" however you slice it. Even in Switzerland which does have a form of direct democracy, their parliament is still sovereign and can overrule referendum results if they don't meet the criteria or otherwise think it's a really bad idea.
Oh, and,
I think at this point we can safely say that the result hasn't been "ignored," we've spent three years trying to enact it (for some value of "trying"). Other than the risk of gammongeddon I see little reason why we can't now just say "well, we honoured the result and tried to leave but it's proven impossible to do so safely in the timeframe available to us, so we've no option but to try something else." But that would involve parliament doing its job and I've more chance of growing a second willy than that happening any time soon.
Labour front benchers now saying that the Withdrawal Agreement can stay as it is, as long as the "package" has something added to it declaring UK trying for a close relationship with EU after transition.
What do we think likely result is in 8 days time…?
- no deal now : 40%
- WA + bit of "jobs first" & short ext : 25%
- long ext & election : 20%
- long ext & referendum on WA : 5%
- revocation followed by election : 10%
Comment from Private Eye regarding the petition:
"BREAKING: Theresa May finally succeeds in getting people to back something."
What a suprise, Corbyn et al bottle it.
@cougar I totally agree referendums are not compatible with our democracy - that must be clear to everyone with any sense now. The breaking of our democracy is just another fun element of the whole cluster ****
Patronising remoaner bully boys out in force again! Jesus wept. Cougar have a word with yourself- Everyone who disagrees with you is not a liar or disingenuous- "with all due respect! You need to have some respect FFS! Call people wrong & disagree but dont call people liars.
I think indicative votes is the way to go and if those votes indicate that A50 should be revoked I am OK with that. I am against a second referendum, let the politicians clean up their own mess.
Kelvin - can you share a link?
Kelvin – can you share a link?
No. Radio.
Will look for the Radio4 one when it's in iPlayer later, and post a link if I can.
You need to have some respect FFS! Call people wrong & disagree but dont call people liars.
Respect is earned not demanded.
I didn't call anyone a liar, you're making up stuff that I didn't say. (Ie, lying, somewhat ironically.)
"Remoaner bully boys?" That's hilarious. You should have a read of some of the comments on leaver Facebook pages sometime if you want to see some bully boys in action. It's not remainers who are telling everyone who disagrees with them to "shut up and get on with it" or slinging around death threats.
It’s not remainers who are telling everyone who disagrees with them to “shut up and get on with it” or slinging around death threats.
Or indeed actually killing people.
Alistair Campbell’s quote comes to mind about the last march. “Anything with that much support is on the right side of history”.
He thought the same about the Iraq war protest.
I didn’t call anyone a liar, you’re making up stuff
😉
And today, piemonster learns an important lesson about tenses. (-:
Call people wrong & disagree but dont call people liars.
Don’t call them liars? Even after they have lied? The whole campaign & subsequent ‘negotiations’ have been typified by lies.
As for...
let the politicians clear up their own mess
It isn’t just their mess: we’re all being imperilled by this. And they show no sign of clearing it up.
Cougar said I lied about how I voted in the ref and he's called Dazh either daft or disingenuous. Its not OK. If someone has lied of course call them a liar but thats not what I'm talking about here.
Of course I am aware of Brexit bully boys- try not to be the mirror of them peeps.
Even in Switzerland which does have a form of direct democracy, their parliament is still sovereign and can overrule referendum results if they don’t meet the criteria or otherwise think it’s a really bad idea.
As indeed is ours - even if we are in the EU. Amazing really isn't it?
I totally agree referendums are not compatible with our democracy
Well they are providing they are taken for what they are - opinion polls.
If we do end up staying in the EU, I'm going to become and MEP.
For accusations of bullying look no further than our PM, she has constantly tried to take legitimate options off the table, she has withheld documents from parliament, she has been complicit in covering up that stuff didn't exist.
She spent the last few months literally trying to bully parliament by fixing the questions.
Then her little outburst last night.
For many of us it's important that we acknowledge the options available to the UK at the moment
As it stands these are/include
May's Deal + Extension
No Deal with No Extension
Revoke A50 & Remain
Vote for some kind of change and agree longer extension with the EU to facilitate that (Either change of government or referendum)
Trying to pretend any of these options doesn't exist is stupid and counter productive.
And today, piemonster learns an important lesson about tenses. (-:
To be fair, I meant to type something about irony but couldn’t be arsed.
Cougar said I lied about how I voted in the ref
I believe what I actually said was "I don't think I believe you" but I'd have to go back and check and I'm not sure as I care sufficiently to bother.
he’s called Dazh either daft or disingenuous
Neither of which are synonyms for "liar."
And in any case, I didn't call him either of those things either. The first six words of the sentence you've lifted that from were very important, read them again.
It'd be highly irregular for me to call someone a liar. I might've done many months ago so out of frustration in the past with our serial fabricator who generated sufficient nonsense to earn him his own hashtag, I don't remember now, but it's certainly not a term I'd generally throw around lightly. Not least because I rarely have sufficient courage of my convictions to be comfortable with making such an accusation.
What is the point of posting "I dont think I believe you" over how I voted. What was your point in typing that post? Its out of order and you know it- just apologise.
What are the synonyms of disingenuous?
I agree with Cougar - an'adult' parliment ought to be able go agaisnt a referendum result if it is obviously impossible or harmful to achieve. Who was it that said 'with great power comes great responsibility?' 😉
All this 'will of the people' stuff, or blaming the MPs, is just ducking responsibility. Its also very lazy.
What is the point of posting “I dont think I believe you”
Because I thought I didn't believe you?
just apologise.
Convince me that I was wrong and I shall, unreservedly, with a spring in my step and joy in my heart.
What are the synonyms of disingenuous?
Insincere? Certainly in the context I intended it, anyway.
I believe what I actually said was “I don’t think I believe you”
If this is said about a persons statement, what is it other than saying "I don't belive your telling the truth" I.E. lying !! I've been repeatedly told by some posters that they don't belive I voted remain, just because I don't conform do their ideal of a remain voter.
If you don't know what words mean then don't use them.
Synonyms of disingenuous:
dishonest, deceitful, underhand, underhanded, duplicitous, double-dealing, two-faced, dissembling, insincere, false, lying, untruthful, mendacious
I think I believe you
I don't think I believe you
I think you are lying
I don't think you are lying
Watching the eU politicians on bbc news, there isn’t much love for TM!! To paraphrase, she is a rubbish negotiator, constantly changes her mind, and has no friends!
The deputy E.U. leader stated if the deal fails we need a new leader 😳
If you don’t know what words mean then don’t use them.
I'm well aware of what words mean, I'm not the one who had to Google it. I even clarified what I meant just now just in case you'd taken it the wrong way.
If I said you were crowing about something would we expect you to be running around waving a raven about?
I love how people are getting their knickers in a twist about it being sugeested that the may be setting out to deceive.
The correct answer when accused of lying/someone doesn't believe you, if you know yourself to be truthful is "the great thing about the truth is that it doesn't care what you think"
Getting wound up? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Quick point on this issue of whether the referendum was legitimate/binding etc. You're all right when you point out the flaws. It was only advisory, the leave campaign was based on lies (some on remain too, but nowhere near as many), campaign fraud and dark money funding the leave campaign etc. But, all that is largely irrelevant as long as most of the people who voted believe it was legitimate. Confidence in the process and the end result is the primary consideration, and apart from a small and very vocal minority, no one is seriously disputing that on the whole the referendum was executed fairly and the result was clear.
The voting public may not understand the pros/cons and detailed whys and wherefores of the European Union, but they do understand the simple concept of holding a vote and respecting the result. As I've said many times, confidence in the democratic process is in my opinion much more important than our membership of the European Union.
PS. Still not seeing the magic formula that you all seem to know that the labour party should have followed to stop brexit. Clearly I should have gone for a longer ride 🙂
If this is said about a persons statement, what is it other than saying “I don’t belive your telling the truth” I.E. lying !!
I appreciate we're in an era where opinion and fact are somewhat muddied, but compare and contrast:
"I don't believe you."
"I don't think I believe you."
There is a perhaps subtle but very important difference.
some on remain too, but nowhere near as many
Name one.
all that is largely irrelevant
I agree with you here. Whataboutery regarding a referendum three years ago now is, well, whataboutery. It's done and dusted for better or worse, we can't change it and still harping on about it* does no-one on either side any favours.
(* - not an actual harp, in case anyone is confused.)
