Wasn't it the porn movie from Jacqui Smiths husband?
Biscuit powered you are clearly a man of reason, I salute you...
Talkemada and BBB, yes I'm "young", or at least I'd like to think I am (though come July plenty of people will tell me I'm old as I'll be 30 then!), but that is perhaps the point... We have a nation of people that seem to be voting based on their age groups. Lots of people like yourselves say you'd never vote Tory cos of what Thatcher did. Fair point from a socialists point of view, but where is the socialist party these days? There isn't one! And to say you'd never vote for a party based upon one person years ago, is quite frankly absurd in my book. Do you hate the Germans and the Japanese because of WW2 still?
Thatcher was no saint, some things she did alienated lots of the public. She remained in office for a long time though, so clearly she was keeping some people happy! You also have to remember that before she came into power the whole country was on it's knees, as a slave to the Unions. She practically destroyed them and got the country working again, so hats off there!
The point is though we are voting on modern policies and people, not age old dyed in the wool perceptions. I could never vote socialist, ever. But the point is there is no socialist party, labour would or could have got my vote... Except for the fact I happened to believe that though he was trying his best, Brown didn't have the right ideas, and he was backed up by a bunch of self interested cocks like mandelson... Lib/Con coalition will hopefully bring in some good new ideas between them!
Mboy - so so wrong - thatcher did not put the country back to work - there were significantly more people out of work at the end of the premiership than before it,
Well we now have the ConDemned party, which is better than full on Conservative.
I look forward to the return of Labour 😀
This discussion has startling parallels with the '10 speed will be awful' debates on other threads 🙂
She practically destroyed them and got the country working again, so hats off there!
Er.... she destroyed virtually all of our industry/manufacturing creating vast swathes of unemplyment and social misery.
And yes while Labour have undoubtedly wasted money speak to people in the NHS etc and they will tell you there have been real improvements - not enough but a massive improvement over the Tories.
>there were significantly more people out of work at the end of the premiership than before it,
What are the stats for the Labour government period in office ?
Mboy well said.
You can blame me i voted Tory, and in the words of Maggie on the steps of 10 Downing Street when victory was declared in the Falklands, Rejoice, Rejoice.
Get over it and move on, lets see what they do lets not assume anything. 😉
Where's the fun if you don't predict DOOM? This place was much better when Cressers was around.
What are the stats for the Labour government period in office ?
Significantly lower than throughout most of Thatcher's reign in the 80s, despite the fact that we are apparently in the worst financial crisis in x years.
I really think that people should give Cameron and Clegg a working chance of getting things back on track. If nothing else, Clegg may turn out to be the social conscience that Cameron needs, meaning that less frivolous/devisive stuff gets done, and more focus is kept on the meat of getting this country out of the mess it is in now.
Hopefully we can look back in five years time and say that maybe a coalition worked well this time.
Well unemployment rose 53,000 to 2.51 million in the three months to March (according to latest figures). That's the highest it's been since 1994.
Bloody Tories and Lib Dems causing problems already. 🙄
roper - you cannot compare the unemployment count now with the 90s - too many changes in the way it is counted but figures now are about 1.5 - 2 x what they would have been then - so 2.5 million unemployed now is about he same as 3.5 - 5 million unemployed then
she destroyed virtually all of our industry/manufacturing
ONS figures - manufacturing output index seasonally adjusted -
Thatcher comes in - 86.6
Thatcher goes - 91.9
c.f. Nulab come in - 97.6
Now - 90.2.
roper - you cannot compare the unemployment count now with the 90s - too many changes in the way it is counted but figures now are about 1.5 - 2 x what they would have been then - so 2.5 million unemployed now is about he same as 3.5 - 5 million unemployed then
Let's see your references TJ, not just these ridiculous assertions. In correct Harvard format please.
ONS figures - manufacturing output index seasonally adjusted -Thatcher comes in - 86.6
Thatcher goes - 91.9c.f. Nulab come in - 97.6
Now - 90.2.
Very selective interpretation there. So you're saying that during the worst worldwide financial crisis of at least the last 30 years the figures are about the same as under Thatcher's reign? What were they in 2008 before the crash? What's the trend right now?
Also I said industry/manufacturing not just manufacturing.
Haven't read the whole thing, but personally I quite like the idea of conservative/libdem coalition - aren't two heads better than one?
TJ, I didn't say she put the country back to work... I said she got them working... Subtle difference!
That difference being that previously most of the UK workforce was turning up to work 3 days a week, and doing bugger all whilst there. She fought the Unions and got people working a 5 day week again. There were casualties, but on the whole the country was a lot better off as a result. Simple maths really...
30 million people x 3 days per week x 4 productive hours per day = 360million productive hours per week
28 million people x 5 days per week x 8 productive hours per day = 1160million producive hours per week
See what I did there? 😉
Oh, and on the note of RBS. Indeed, why spoil a good Labour story by publishing the truth... Anybody here work for RBS?Anybody been interviewed by them recently for a job? Well 3 months ago I was in the latter position, the guy interviewing me told me about where I would fit in with the plan to reduce the £2.7Billion deficit that RBS is currently running at! All of that been financed at the taxpayers expense of course... Great job Labour in managing that one effectively!
Very selective interpretation there. So you're saying that during the worst worldwide financial crisis of at least the last 30 years the figures are about the same as under Thatcher's reign? What were they in 2008 before the crash? What's the trend right now?Also I said industry/manufacturing not just manufacturing.
Trend under nulab has been largely flat, with a recent drop which we can put down to the "global" crisis. Thatcher years show a drop for 2 years followed by a consistent rise to above where it started. If I knew how to post an Excel graph I'd show you the details.
Figures are for manufacturing industries, If I added in others then the trend would be similar, except for mining and quarrying which has been in decline since 1953 but strangely also increased during the Thatcher years (I didn't expect that!).
timc - Member
Mboy where do you live? local transport on merseyside has improved without doubt although Im not sure thats thanks to the government!?
Truly? I'm another merseyside resident here, and would wonder about that - and as you say, how much is due to central govt? Remember the big tram scheme plans - dead as the dodo, with the associated costs.
My Mum has worked for the NHS for 30 years and tells me she has seen vast improvements in the last decade in our local sector? Just because its not right, doesnt mean it hasnt improoved...
NHS worker for 22 years here, just seen my hospital rebuilt but the funding has been via PFI, so the Trust is significantly in debt for 25 years, and already looking for cost savings to meet the mortgage - as well as support staff now being none NHS employed and employed by the building company, with loss of NHS T&Cs. Waiting times, look at how many hospitals nationally have been accused of fiddling waiting times, the 4 hour A&E one in particular. NHS IT scheme - ?????? what a waste!
Sharkbait and Willard, correct lets not judge now, give them a fair chance to do the business, i am hopefull and confident this will work.
The whole process over the last few days has been fascinating to watch IMO and definately looks like a new era for British Politics.
molgrips - Member
(quote)G.Brown budget speech 1997 : "I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the futureSuggest you have a think about how government actually has to work vs what people have to say to get elected.
I suggest [i]you[/i] have a think about how a country should be run for its best long term economic and social interest Vs how a short termist, ego driven, power hungry chancellor will run things to keep the music playing and his party in office long enough to inherit the top job he coveted oh-so-dearly for oh-so-many years.
echoing mboy and missingfrontalobe here.
NuLabour ceased to become a political party and became a marketing company a long while ago, doing anything (knee jerk crazy laws) that will get the right headlines in the redtops.
Are the die hard Labour dudes a bit like supporting the same football team your dad did for life?
EXAMPLE
Labour pumps in big$$$ to NHS and other public sectors for years yet we don't get the proportionate improvements.
A few weeks before a general election is called, Labour 'identifies' millions (billions?) of 'efficiency savings' in public sector/NHS.
Are we happy to have a government that thinks we're thick? or are we just actually thick?
In simple answer to Bigs original post i too am dissapointed and it's left me with a bad taste for sure...i dont claim to have the political understanding that many on here have (maybee) but I just can't see CMD's lot or his new side kick doing anything but going back to there roots which is a tad dissapointing IMO.
Ok lets look at housing - up until the late 60's gov't determined how much houses could be sold for.
The gov't relaxed that control and we had a housing boom and a crash - except housing was included in inflationary figures which explains the double figured inflation of the 70's.
A lot of pensions are sold based on the fact of double figure inflation - unitized with profits etc....
During the 80's house price controls were relaxed further - we have another housing boom and a crash, anyone remember Black Monday 1987?
Labour not voted in due to scandals around Labour & Russia (it was still the cold war) and Union behaviour in the 70's, plus Kinnock fell over running away from the sea.
Double income now allowed for Mortgage calculations.
A cunning gov't then targeted single figure inflation... and removed housing from the inflation figures; tada single figure inflation.
Except all those poor suckers who bought pensions and are now stuffed.
Both parents now have to work in order to buy a house.
90's and 0's House price boom continues as FSA allows mortgages on > 3 times salary on both incomes and self-certified mortgages. Housing boom continues fuelled by Banking bonuses rippling out from London; Banking bonuses fuelled by trading (speculating/gambling) on self-certified mortgages.
Loads of people making loadsa money on spiralling housing market - any prospective gov't can't stop the boom; they'd never get voted in.
The boom busts and there's lots of finger pointing at gov't etc... without anyone saying - I paid over the odds for house x and made a killing on house y and my personal debt is z.
How far would any party that suggested a house price cap get in the polls?
Tomorrow public transport....
The coalition deal was finally sealed yesterday evening during a hastily arranged phone call between David Cameron and Nick Clegg where they compared notes on the daughters of minor aristocrats that they had felt up at charity balls in the 1980s.The prime minister's spokesman said: "We knew we had a workable, four year deal when David and Nick both realised they had probably fingered the Hon. Charlotte Brampton during the same Henley Regatta."
The new administration started work immediately as Downing Street released the first round of cabinet appointments including Binky, Pinky, Ponky, Porky, Splodger, Dodger, Bodger, Badger, Fishy Frobisher, good old Charlie Two-Yachts and Vince Cable.
You could at least credit your sources grum (it might not be obvious to everyody)
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/the-torch-has-been-passed-to-a-new-generation-of-public-school-nancy-boys-201005122720/
I'm not sure the housing market has 'crashed' properly in historical terms. Still very very expensive compared to wages, ne c'est pas?
It hasn't at all, molgrips - still nowhere near what it was in terms of affordability.
Strange that graph seems to stop just before.......
...it continues at much the same over-inflated level.
In 1997 the ecomomy was in pretty good shape, national debt of about £7 billion, small change in national terms.
After riding the wave of worldwide prosperity it's now about £1.5 trillion, double that if you include PFI. New Labour spent most of this bribing you with your own money.
Naturally enough now the people the money was borrowed from are nervous that they may not get it back and the cost of these borrowings will increase (see Greece).
To put it in proportion the interest costs are about half the cost of the NHS.
Many of you on here are public employees, (the self employed rarely have time to fritter away on forums), and I'm afraid you will bear the brunt of a "readjustment". Sorry about that, I hope you put some money away during the good times, Gordon certainly didn't.
Let don't really knwo about waht tories will do to the UK, but I can tell you what right wing have done to France.
I had to leave my country to be able to study thanks to f-tories cutting educations and research credit. I took it as a chance to discover another country, another culture and get to finish my studies by getting a PhD.
Now I am back although we did change of president (probably not for the better) things have not improved. I am meant to have what people call a "comfortable" wedge well sorry I use to have one as I only got hired for on year (yes the cutting science credit mentioned above), but this wedge is barely sufficient to allow me a decent level of living. If it wasn't for me living rent free at my mum's I would probably not have been able to keep cycling. Same with my partner. She's living with her son at her dad's but can barely meet both ends. Sure we both do luxury things such as going to the cinema, having coffees or buying books. The number of children per class have rocket from 20 to 30, but this increase of tax have not been compensate by teachers salary to be re-evaluated. However if you buy your kid private tuitions, you can get a tax break for it. But funny enough you need to be able to afford it first. Oh I am sure some people don't complain. Specially the ones that manage to get a tax break through the decrease of the tax shield (3% of the population costing the other 97% 6 billion a year), the change in the tax on legacy (6% of the people costing the other 94% again a few billions of euros) or the change of the VAT for the restaurant owners (I have yet to see any prices coming down on the price list).
Government have managed to keep the finances aflot by selling the shares of the electricity, the motorways companies and renautl. Now i don't see the bad in that expect that
EDF (electricity company) is now more interested in making money by selling electricity in south east UK than it's interested in keep the existing rural network working.
Motorways company makes billions every years and keep reducing the number of staff.
Renault cried for some money from the government jus tot tell the gvt to go and get sexual acquaintances with himself, no they won't move production back in France.
I wouldn't want to get injured right now as I am not sure I'll be able to afford the cost of the health expenses.
Now I am going to have to pay taxes, and the reward I have from the government by going every day to work by bike + train is that I can pay 1488€ of taxes. Obviously I would have much more prefered to pay only 844€. But for that, I would have had to go to work by car.
One could argue that the only thing french socialist have done is hiring useless teachers, doctors, creating an universal health cover for the less fortunates, decrease the time of work, abolish the death penalty and so and so. But then, some people are going to say that I am biased.
molgrips
n'est ce pas 😉
Some people are going to say you should use paragraphs. Juan 😉
don't really know about what tories will do to the UK, but I can tell you what right wing have done to France.
French Tories are no where near as right-wing as British Tories. You've got a bunch of lefties in comparison.
Griz i don't think so. My dear and lovely president is closer to BNP than it is to tories 🙁
On the economy
molgrips - MemberI'm not sure the housing market has 'crashed' properly in historical terms. Still very very expensive compared to wages
Exactly. Still astronomical.
It started making its adjustment to sensibility back in 2008. But then Gordon decided he had to do 'The Right Thing' for 'Hardworking Families' and throw everything (up to and including a few hundred billion of freshly printed money) at the 'problem' of one of life's basic necessities becoming more affordable for normal people.
G.Brown April 2008 : "We've seen house prices rise by about 180% over the last 10 years and they have risen by about 18% over the last three years, so a 2.5% fall is something that is containable."
ARSEHOLE.
It started making its adjustment to sensibility back in 2008.
So the global financial crisis of 2007 onwards was just simply the market making "sensible adjustments" was it ?
It was nothing to do with people not being able to borrow/get mortgages that drove down house prices then ?
And you didn't like Gordon Brown trying to contain a 2.5% fall in house prices ? So obviously negative equity is a really great thing ? Specially for 'Hardworking Families' with 100% mortgages ?
Who you calling an "ARSEHOLE" btw ?
Yes, the crisis was caused by the market trying to discover value. On the global financial level this was financial derivatives, mortgage backed securities etc. which were thought to be AAA investment grade being discovered to be giant turds and their prices adjusting accordingly.
And yes, house prices adjusting downwards was caused by people not being able to borrow so much. That's how the housing market works - prices are driven by people's ability to borrow. Not being funny here but I'm not sure what you're getting at? Could you elaborate a bit?
I do understand the next bit though. You're evoking the dreaded bogeyman of -dun dun duuuun- Negative Equity. Oh noes! Can't have that, we must only let prices ratchet up, never back down lest someone's house be worth less than they paid for it!
Much better to have an entire generation priced out and living at the whim of Buy To Let landlords on 6 month ASTs instead (an invention of bastard Tories).
I was calling Gordon an arsehole. Who else?
Thanks BP - that answers everything. Globally, no should have interfered with market as it "adjusted prices accordingly" (although no one listened to your solution) People not being able to get mortgages, with all the effect of houses not being built despite the desperate shortage (the market says there's no shortage) is just absolutely fine. Sitting on negative equity is also absolutely fine. And finally we established who is an arsehole. Thank you 8)
😯
That's a very nice little tirade ernie, now would you like to take a deep breath and 'debate' the points I've made rather than spitting your dummy out?
Thankyou 8)
Bp - you're new around here I take it ? 😆
Sitting on negative equity is also absolutely fine.
Actually for most people, yes it is. Given current mortgage rates it's not as if it should be that hard to pay some of the mortgage off to get out of it.
😆 @ allthepies!
Don't blame as 1/3 of the country didn't vote
