On the lefty thing, I’ve already explained it’s shorthand for whatever the hell we are supposed to call the open border, globalist, pro censorship, oppressive, DEI obsessed conglomerate of interests.
Which is nonsense, I'm what most people would call a classic lefty, an extremist left even and have been accused of it many times on here. I'm also anti-globaliist, anti-censorship, anti-oppression and anti-authoritarian. Granted I don't particularly have a problem with open (or at least porous) borders and don't have a problem with DEI as long as it's not being rammed down my throat in a judgemental manner but the other aspects you mention are classic traits of rightwing neoliberal capitalism. Your association of all the above into the phrase 'lefty' makes no sense either in the traditional description of a lefty socialist or a more modern one in terms of a left liberal.
I doubt he'll be thwarting Elon Musks tech given Musk we'll be in charge of his own regulation.
Not sure I'd feel too comfortable around his driverless cars...
Lockdown seemed like a good initial theory implemented by clinically insane people to me.
I kind of got the idea behind it first time around but when it morphed into bonkers and ultimately made-up laws that seemed to me to be WORSE than doing nothing (ie no outdoor exercise, country walks etc etc) then I quickly decided it had become nothing but a psy-op to test compliance in large populations.
And let’s not go down the Russia route…. Well mainly because since Hilary smashed up and bleached her laptop there is no more to say about it anyway.
Oh, there's plenty to say about Russia, very little of it to do with Trump's fabrications.
It's this kind of bad faith manufactured bullshit that leads us to where we are today.
What did you make of lockdown, BTW?
This is the Trump thread isn't it.
Not sure I get your point Dazh. People and political ideas are complex and multi layered.
But those broad definitions get close enough to defining the sides of the culture war I am referring to.
To me, it seems that Trumps policies are more about thwarting technological innovation.
all of his laws against women and the environment are just ‘Kaoss’, with the goal of keeping the left occupied with stuff that should have been properly codified decades ago.
You missed off the destabilising effect of his avowed non-interventionism. Like it or not, past balls-ups or not, I'd much rather have an engaged US in global affairs in 2024 than one pretending they can just pull down the shutters.
I quickly decided it had become nothing but a psy-op to test compliance in large populations.
You are taking the piss now, right?
Actually, no. Never mind.
Life is too short for what comes next. This has been done a thousand times and it usually follows one or two pretty familiar paths.
Forget it.
No. It became totally potty. You could share a taxi with a stranger with masks on and breath in each others air but couldn’t sit with a friend on a park bench.
The irony is that a lot of the gestapo enforcing it probably tweeted at some point in the past three months that “I hope the bad orange nazi doesn’t win”.
Not sure I get your point Dazh.
It's fairly simple. What you're calling a lefty I call a rightwing neoliberal capitalist. It's about as far away from the traditional definition of lefty* as you can get. 🙂
*one who believes in socialist ideas aiming to empower working people, reduce and mitigate the power of capital, eliminate poverty and deliver social justice.
the conversation would get unwieldy if I had to caveat every post with a massive definition
You could just use the phrase 'neoliberal corporatist/capitalist' instead of 'lefty' because that would be much more accurate.
You could share a taxi with a stranger with masks on and breath in each others air but couldn’t sit with a friend on a park bench.
No you couldn't.
Taxis (of the Toyota Avensis variety) had to put up a plastic barrier between the front and back seats, like any vaguely modern black cab.
And travel was supposed to be only if really necessary, so there was a pressing reason for being in the back of the taxi. Meeting you mate on a park bench would just have been unnecessary risk, even if it was a lower one. The higher risk doesn't do anything to negate the lower one. If anything it makes it a multiplier. Now I've got covid from being in the taxi because the person before met their mate in the park and caught it off them, and now I'm going to give it to my mate in the park. Cutting out the unnecessary transmission is what got the R number <1 because it made the remaining necessary interactions safer.
c.f. If I drive to a trail center the risky part of the day is doing a lap of the trail. It doesn't somehow make me less likely to crash on the way home though.
You could share a taxi with a stranger with masks on and breath in each others air but couldn’t sit with a friend on a park bench.
Yeah, that's horseshit for the very reasons above.
It's OK. I've got you categorised now. Don't let me detain you any further. You won't be getting any further interaction from me on this thread if I can remember to enforce my 'do not interact' rule. In some ways a block user function would be handy here.
Plenty of people around here were travelling in taxis with nothing but a cursory barrier that was going to stop nothing? After a very few minutes you were getting a lung full of whatever the driver had.
There was never any evidence of outdoor transmission. Being outside should have been THE way to let life carry on as normally as possible.
Unmilited exercise should always have been allowed- people should have been encouraged to get as aerobically fit as possible!
Mask on to walk to your table, mask off to eat. I mean what a shower.
And that’s not even to speak to the matter of personal choice. I mean, obviously we had to make sure nurses had enough tic-tok time for propaganda purposes so I understand a bit of caution about overwhelming the NHS…
Anyone that supported a policy that let people miss their loved ones funerals deserves a special place in hell.
I managed to break both my legs early on so was in hospital as wards were being converted to Covid wards etc and quite frankly, most of the chatter from the doctors and nurses in there was about the lunacy of it all.
In hindsight- they were proved correct.
We should have gone full Sweden and let the bodies pile high (oh wait, I mean not had any worse an issue than anyone else).
I suppose you’re going to tell me that the changes to how ‘excess deaths’ have been counted since the Psy-op is just some logical statistical necessity lol
Love the full ‘intruder alert’ meltdown lol
socialist ideas aiming to empower working people, reduce and mitigate the power of capital, eliminate poverty and deliver social justice
Oi! @dazh That’s just centre left isn’t it? Fabian even. Definitely not extreme lefty.
I do agree that what @crosshair (interesting choice of name) is so angry about sounds more like Trumpy rightwingers (DEI aside - which done properly is 95% just showing decent respect to others)
I do favour globalism - but simply because pragmatism tells me that when companies are bigger than countries and happily working cross border, them opposing globalism hurts people more than companies (see Brexit for a case study).
On an emotional level, countries are great for picking sports teams, and some sort of nostalgic often made up culture - but they aren’t good for much more these days.
Multi-national blocks just make more sense these days - and since we left the EU we’ve been scratting around trying to find a new one to join.
Oh my. That’s one away from me shouting “House!”
liberal elite
House.
Jonathan Pie pretty much nails it again
David Lammy 2019 :
Deluded, dishonest, xenophobic, narcissistic, Donald Trump is no friend of Britain. He is not fit to hold public office, let alone worthy of our country's highest honours and a banquet with the Queen. Theresa May is selling out the UK to a serial liar and a cheat.
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1120465288250712064
David Lammy 2024 :
Congratulations to @realDonaldTrump on your victory.The UK has no greater friend than the US, with the special relationship being cherished on both sides of the Atlantic for more than 80 years.
We look forward to working with you and @JDVance in the years ahead.
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1854077924686573734
I guess that the difference between now and 2019 is that now we have a Labour government so it is absolutely fine to work with the "deluded, dishonest, xenophobic, narcissistic, serial liar and cheat"
The current Labour government really strives to reach new levels of hypocrisy. Any reasonable person might have hoped that Donald Trump's election as US president would have jolted a "centre-left" Labour UK government to re-evaluate its"Special Relationship" with the United States. Sadly that is probably an unrealistic hope.
Oi! @dazh That’s just centre left isn’t it? Fabian even. Definitely not extreme lefty.
No I was only using that description for 'lefty'. I have some other views that I didn't mention which apparently make me an extremist like abolishing national administrative borders and armies, replacing representative democracy with direct democracy and implementing an economic system which aims for 0% growth and zero net consumption of natural resources. Apparently they are a bit too radical for most people so I'll stick with the original description. 😉
The current Labour government really strives to reach new levels of hypocrisy.
If David Lammy had any self respect he'd have resigned this morning on the grounds that his job was untenable given his past comments but as we all know he's one of those politicians who will say whatever he thinks people want to hear. And we wonder why voters are tolerant of the lies and nonsense that comes out of the mouths of politicians?
it is absolutely fine to work with the “deluded, dishonest, xenophobic, narcissistic, serial liar and cheat”
Reality bites. Ministers work for us, they can’t choose to ignore the USA because a **** is in charge and they don’t like it. It smells like hypocrisy, because it is. They still need to get on with working for the UK, even when it makes them look two faced. Same goes for working with a number of European leaders… plenty of despicable politicans in positions of power right now, in countries the UK needs to work with.
Any reasonable person might have hoped that Donald Trump’s election as US president would have jolted a “centre-left” Labour UK government to re-evaluate its”Special Relationship” with the United States. Sadly that is probably an unrealistic hope.
I think when you said "reasonable", you meant to say "naive and deluded"
you meant to say “naive and deluded”
Nah, the naive and deluded are those believe in the "Special Relationship". It only exists in the minds of UK politicians, no US politician believes in it.
And it is this naivety and delusion which results in the Special Relationship being nothing more than a case of the US telling the UK what to do and the UK doing what it is told to do.
Now that's pretty "special".
Try selling that shit to the French, or any other country above the status of banana republic.
Plenty of people around here were travelling in taxis with nothing but a cursory barrier that was going to stop nothing? After a very few minutes you were getting a lung full of whatever the driver had.
No they weren't.
There was never any evidence of outdoor transmission. Being outside should have been THE way to let life carry on as normally as possible.
That's the thing about novel outbreaks - there's no evidence of anything to start off with.
Mask on to walk to your table, mask off to eat. I mean what a shower.
Bullshit.
And that’s not even to speak to the matter of personal choice. I mean, obviously we had to make sure nurses had enough tic-tok time for propaganda purposes so I understand a bit of caution about overwhelming the NHS…
Bullshit trope.
Anyone that supported a policy that let people miss their loved ones funerals deserves a special place in hell.
Bullshit.
I managed to break both my legs early on so was in hospital as wards were being converted to Covid wards etc...
Did that hurt?
...and quite frankly, most of the chatter from the doctors and nurses in there was about the lunacy of it all.
Bullshit.
<br style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-border-spacing-x: 0; --tw-border-spacing-y: 0; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246/0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000;" />In hindsight- they were proved correct.
Except you're making it up.
We should have gone full Sweden and let the bodies pile high (oh wait, I mean not had any worse an issue than anyone else).
Worst per capita death rate in the world for awhile, you'll be pleased to hear - not so good for all those funerals you were forced to miss.
I suppose you’re going to tell me that the changes to how ‘excess deaths’ have been counted since the Psy-op is just some logical statistical necessity lol
No change made.
The freedom with which this bad faith bullshit can be posted is why we have a racist rapist felon as president incoming.
All Hail Emperor Trump.
Should be interesting to see what old scores he settles and how quickly.
to believe we could just cut ourselves off
How does 're-evaluating our special relationship with the United States' translate into 'cut ourselves off' ??
I am talking about a more healthy relationship with the United States, along the lines that other countries have.
What is unreasonable about that? And not least when the US chooses a deluded, dishonest, xenophobic, narcissistic, serial liar and cheat as president?
All Hail Emperor Trump.
Should be interesting to see what old scores he settles and how quickly.
Getting the self-pardoning out the way should keep him occupied for about a year?
I have some other views that I didn’t mention which apparently make me an extremist like abolishing national administrative borders and armies, replacing representative democracy with direct democracy and implementing an economic system which aims for 0% growth and zero net consumption of natural resources.
Excellent. My greengrocer grandfather would have agreed with you.
I’ll stick borders and armies down as reasonable excellent aspirations (though I have no idea how to achieve them).
Not a fan of direct democracy to be honest - too easy for a populist to subvert (though representative democracy isn’t doing much better).
Zero (GDP?) growth and zero net consumption are going to be a struggle simply because it will probably fan the flames of the intergenerational problems we are already seeing.
Well here is an old score he might want to settle:
Trump campaign files complaint against 'far left' Labour Party's 'blatant foreign interference' in US election
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/donald-trump-labour-party-us-uk-politics-kamala-harris/
The question is can the UK's Foreign Secretary and PM grovel enough to be forgiven?
So let’s think back to Trumps first tenure in office, what did he actually do? Short answer “**** all”
The Democrats were in control of Congress during his 1st presidency, Republicans are not going to vote against him so anything goes this time
To be fair Donald Trump did do quite a lot when he was president, whether or not you agree with what he did. And the US economy did reasonably well until the covid pandemic came along.
All of which explains at least in part why American voters have given a second term.
Zero (GDP?) growth and zero net consumption are going to be a struggle simply because it will probably fan the flames of the intergenerational problems we are already seeing.
Well we don't really have any choice on this one as eventually we'll run out of space and resources, civilisation will collapse and the human race will go extinct. Unless of course Elon manages to colonise Mars before then which I think even the most enthusiastic Musk acolyte will admit is unlikely.
Should be interesting to see what old scores he settles and how quickly.
I'd settle for locking up Nancy Pelosi. I have always despised that woman, the single greatest blockage to progressive policies and govt in the US (and beyond) in recent history. Although given she's one of the main instigators of the Harris candidacy Trump might give her a medal instead.
To be fair Donald Trump did do quite a lot when he was president, whether or not you agree with what he did.
He sure did:
https://seattlemedium.com/donald-trump-spent-almost-a-year-playing-golf-during-presidency/
Thank goodness they've reinstated a real grafter in the White House eh?
Trump does not give one flying fig for 'Green issues', the 'environment', 'controlling climate change', or nature. All the baby robins of this world are in jeopardy. This really is a huge problem.
Thank goodness they’ve reinstated a real grafter in the White House eh?
It has nothing to do with him being a grafter. The reality is that his administration did quite a lot during the period that he was president, and presumably quite a lot of people liked what he did - he has just been elected US president for the second time.
I would be reasonably happy if I thought that Trump will be mostly playing golf for the next 4 years and the US was left to cruise on autopilot, unfortunately I don't think that will be the case
Eerrr like what?
If you think that Trump did nothing more than play golf during his first term I am guessing that you don't think him winning a second term is a disaster?
I do agree that the claimed negative effect of his first term is probably exaggerated but I wouldn't go as far as dismissing it as inconsequential.
I suspect that the average American has a better idea of what Trump did in his first 4 years as US president than the average Brit.
Edit :
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/01/29/how-america-changed-during-donald-trumps-presidency/
Trump’s policy record included major changes at home and abroad. He achieved a string of long-sought conservative victories domestically, including the biggest corporate tax cuts on record, the elimination of scores of environmental regulations and a reshaping of the federal judiciary. In the international arena, he imposed tough new immigration restrictions, withdrew from several multilateral agreements, forged closer ties with Israel and launched a tit-for-tat trade dispute with China as part of a wider effort to address what he saw as glaring imbalances in America’s economic relationship with other countries.
Getting the self-pardoning out the way should keep him occupied for about a year?
I would imagine that will be his primary consideration.
