If I offer to give you a fiver or a tenner, is it a matter of opinion as to which is better?
We'll have to agree to disagree here I'm afraid.
Would an F1 car be better for your commute than a Honda Jazz?
If I offer to give you a fiver or a tenner, is it a matter of opinion as to which is better?
We’ll have to agree to disagree here I’m afraid.
I presume there are other comparisons you can make to things that are not the same.
By all means assert that a sound closer to the original is more precise, more accurate or whatever. But "better" in this context is subjective. AFAIC vinyl is better because I prefer the sound.
"If I offer to give you a fiver or a tenner, is it a matter of opinion as to which is better?"
Well no its not if everyone is agreed that a tenner is better than a fiver because its worth twice the amount. If I was really hungry and the vending machine I was at only took a fiver then the fiver would be better to have than the tenner so I might consider your offer.
However listening is a subjective thing and not bound by black and white distinctions.
Another comparison:
Would you rather eat a meal of many ingredients cooked quite well, or a simple meal of fewer ingredients cooked superbly?
I like this game. 🙂
daddy or chips?
My phone is currently plugged in with a quite nice AKG USB cable. It's actually vastly better sound quality than any other USB cable I own as it doesn't fall out of the socket resulting in no audio at all.
daddy or chips?
Chips, down with the patriarchy!
I took the content of all the posts on this thread which were in confilct
and sumed them together without any phase reversal
guess what the output was.
I took the content of all the posts on this thread which were in confilct
and sumed them together without any phase reversalguess what the output was.
Pink noise?
Brown noise.
But “better” in this context is subjective. AFAIC vinyl is better because I prefer the sound.
Which is what I said.
You prefer inferior. There's no shame in that.
Never mind the cables, you need to ensure they run parallel to ley lines.
Cougar "You prefer inferior. There’s no shame in that." But your trying to imply, with your endless wit and sarcasm, that there is 😉
"Never mind the cables, you need to ensure they run parallel to ley lines."
I love it when comments (like this one but not exclusive to this one) end up resorting mockery because that's the best they can come up with. Not sharing any personal experience or knowledge on given subject (but that's probably because they haven't got any to share) 🙄
The comments I really enjoy though are the ones that say something like...
"No, speaker cable makes no difference as long as your not using xyz.." (with xyz usually being bell wire or zip wire) without seemingly realising they have just agreed that speaker cable does make a difference but then seem incapable of accepting that maybe some speaker cable sold as 'speaker cable' that costs money could possibly also make a difference, the mind can take a narrow path sometimes.....
I'm guilty of that.
So - to add some actual input no just silliness
Upgraded QUAD405 fed by a RaspberryPi/PI-DAQ+ through a Tisbury Audio passive pre, going into Snell Acoustics Type E/ii speakers, so nothing high-end buy fairly decent.
I've used cheap thin Maplin cable, then twin and earth and now Van Damme Studio 4.0mm2.
I've not heard any difference whatsoever during those changes. Twin and earth is a right nightmare to work with as its so inflexible. Van Damme much easier to work with and also looks nice as it's chunky and a pretty colour.
Because of different capacitance etc I imagine there there probably are subtle audible differences between different cable types if listened to directly back to back. I doubt that either are objectively "better" but if there's a preference for one or the other then what's the harm (apart from to the wallet for those buying expensive cable).
Moving the speakers closer to or further from the wall however makes significant difference, so from that my view is that changing speaker cable is a very expensive, difficult way to make a tiny change to sound which is a distraction from getting other factors right.
markwsf..... yeah some knowledge and experience at last.
I agree with what you say about differences being very subtle sometimes. So much so that I feel doing back to back tests is fairly worthless because it's very difficult for the brain to really compare one setup followed by another. The best way I've found is to make a change and then spend a few weeks listening to stuff you know well but DON'T focus on detail such as "was that guitar intro clearer.." etc. but rather relax and think "is the music more musical , more enjoyable, engaging". Then go back to the original setup for a week or so and listen to the same stuff with the same focus on the musical enjoyment. Then make a judgement.
I love it when comments (like this one but not exclusive to this one) end up resorting mockery because that’s the best they can come up with.
I was having a laugh, clearly something got lost in translation.
But to answer your question I can't remember what cables I've used on my speakers. I did have some bi-wired cables that I used for years but they were really thick and being dark blue were deemed inappropriate for the lounge, along with the musical technogy kestrel speakers they were plugged into. So when I bought some monitor audio bronze speakers to replace them I also got some nice white thin cables that weren't bi-wired to connect them up. That's much easier to run round the skirting board and hide away.
As someone above said, in my experience the position of speakers and use of any baffles in the ports has a much greater impact on sound than the cable. But each to their own.
Because of different capacitance etc I imagine there there probably are subtle audible differences between different cable types if listened to directly back to back
Watch that YouTube video, there aren't.
“is the music more musical , more enjoyable, engaging”.
He addresses this point directly at 28:35 😉
So, to those who can tellthe difference between cables sold as speaker cables, do you think that has more or less effect than the weather? You're transmitting sound through air, but if you calculate air density, using pressure, temp and humidity as variables you'll get 5% density variations pretty easily, plus the differing air humidity will affect how differing frequencies are preserved.. so tests that aren't back to back, start to be affected by a lot more variables than the cable
So that YouTube video is the one and only gospel now is it ... says who.
"So, to those who can tellthe difference between cables sold as speaker cables, do you think that has more or less effect than the weather? You’re transmitting sound through air, but if you calculate air density, using pressure, temp and humidity as variables you’ll get 5% density variations pretty easily, plus the differing air humidity will affect how differing frequencies are preserved.. so tests that aren’t back to back, start to be affected by a lot more variables than the cable"
Yes there are many variables, some can be controlled and some can't, what we can do is have some say in what we can control and do our best to come to the best judgment call we can. If someone disagrees with my thoughts and findings that's fine I'm not going to force it on anyone. Often in these sorts of matters the people with negative opinions are much more forceful in sharing them and often have no experience on the topic whatsoever but nevertheles behave like they do. But ultimately who cares, who am I to take away someone's enjoyment from whatever interest they follow and call them mad for spending their own money wherever they see fit.
@petercook80 - I'm in that camp; what's so controversial about saying "Once the cable is sufficiently large to handle the power requirements further improvements to the cable will not make a measurable difference" ?
Yes; speaker cables make a difference - up to a point. And that point is pretty low unless you are running kW size amps/speakers.
So that YouTube video is the one and only gospel now is it … says who
Science?
Also; the source / what's better or not - I think it's clear that a source can be measurably *more accurate* to the original masters. Whether someone perceives that as better or worse is entirely subjective and everyone is welcome to their own opinion.
Nothing controversial anywhere.....
So that YouTube video is the one and only gospel now is it
Well, it explains, with a repeatable empirical measurement, that the signal transmitted via different cables is exactly the same. Exactly. The. Same. If the signal is the same, the sound you hear is the same. Any differences you think you hear are imagined.
But ultimately who cares, who am I to take away someone’s enjoyment from whatever interest they follow and call them mad for spending their own money wherever they see fit.
And fair enough. There's plenty on here who will say that they can tell the difference in the relative stiffness of different stems, bars or cranks, or the 'vertical compliance' of different frames, when they can't.
IHN
So that YouTube video is the one and only gospel now is it
Well, it explains, with a repeatable empirical measurement, that the signal transmitted via different cables is exactly the same. Exactly. The. Same. If the signal is the same, the sound you hear is the same. Any differences you think you hear are imagined.
At the end of the day, what we hear has to be influenced by our own physiology as well as mental interpretation of that sound.
Even if there is scientifically no measurable difference to the signal, if the listener perceives an difference/improvement (even if there isn't one) does it matter?
Do you not give a placebo to someone even if it makes them feel better, because it actually 'isn't doing anything'?
Interestingly nobody seemed to mention the video isn't actually testing speaker wire.... what he does test is 4 (I think it was) RCA interconnects.
So as 'Science' was brought up, the scientific result of the tests is that the 4 interconnect cables tested none made a difference in that testing setup - possibly this will continue with the same results with many interconnects but we would be making an assumption with that. We don't know the results for speaker cables and I don't think this test could be used for speaker cables. But as it stands it does not really qualify as a definitive scientific study, it may well be correct but with 'Science' many different experiments carried out by different people in different test environments and with different equipment need to be done to be considered 'Science'
Which is what I said.
You prefer inferior. There’s no shame in that.
No, it's not what you said. If I prefer the sound then it's not inferior. Less accurate maybe, but that's not the same thing.
OK. It's an inferior reproduction of the source material.
Well that depends on the source material 😉
The comments I really enjoy though are the ones that say something like…
“No, speaker cable makes no difference as long as your not using xyz..” (with xyz usually being bell wire or zip wire) without seemingly realising they have just agreed that speaker cable does make a difference but then seem incapable of accepting that maybe some speaker cable sold as ‘speaker cable’ that costs money could possibly also make a difference, the mind can take a narrow path sometimes…..
To my mind, there's "good enough" or "not good enough". If you have a hosepipe on a tap, replacing it with a pipe the width of a drinking straw is going to cause problems but the reverse isn't true, using a hose two inches in diameter isn't going to magically give you any more water.
Or, try to pour a pint into a shot glass, a pint glass and a litre stein. The former proves that glass size makes a difference, do we then conclude that the stein must also be an improvement and it's narrow-minded to think otherwise?
Your perfectly welcome to your mind...
But comparisons of hosepipes and drinking receptacles seems somewhat meaningless in this context. But as you say it's your mind. 😃
And is 'Good Enough' really enough goodness, wouldn't it be ever gooder to have more goodness then 'Enough' , why be content in life with just 'Good Enough' - having just those two levels somewhat makes my point on the narrowness really 😉 (attempt at humour alert there not an insult)
If there is room for improvement then it is, by definition, not good enough.
If 100% of what is going in one end is coming out of the other, no cable in the world is going to give you 110%.
How good is "good enough" is entirely down to personal preference.
For me personally there is a point at which there is no need to optimize, improve or adjust to improve things - i.e. it's good enough. For me that point is reached way before speaker cables get into the picture, but after things like a proper hifi amp and speakers, speakers placed properly etc.
Others think differently. I know a few people quite happy to listen via an Amazon Echo dot for example as their main system.
I always used the cheapest wire I could find, but when I got my new stereo I wanted some slightly nicer wire to go with it.
Still pretty cheap, but looks loads better.
So for me, it makes s difference,justnit an audio one.
"If there is room for improvement then it is, by definition, not good enough. If 100% of what is going in one end is coming out of the other, no cable in the world is going to give you 110%."
Oh all the fun has gone out of life....... still you should see the performance of my 10 grand hosepipe, its exceptionally good.
If the media / cabling / equipment is adding artefacts and noise then it is objectively, not subjectively, worse.
That's where you're wrong. A system could introduce artefacts that the listener perceives as more pleasing. For example, if your ears or brain are more sensitive to higher frequencies, you may fit a cable that actually attenuates higher frequencies they may prefer it. Given that all systems reproduce the sound differently, with different frequency responses etc it is not possible to say that one is objectively better.
Remember the goal of hi-fi isn't to simply reproduce what's on the source material. After all, that's simply a representation of the original music which has been processed both digitally and acoustically during recording. What's 'better'? A performance recorded in a small room or a large room? Mic in the front row or mics for each performer? There is no perfect source of truth that you are trying to reproduce here.
don't forget the cables need to be burnt in too!
"don’t forget the cables need to be burnt in too!"
A good point but perhaps that needs another thread all of its own 🙂
OK. It’s an inferior reproduction of the source material.
No, it's less accurate.
Hi-fi is funny stuff.
Years ago I had a half decent, "entry level" separate's system.
It was sitting underneath my TV in an Ikea, pine TV stand on pine shelves.
For some reason I got rid of the TV stand and temporarily moved it on to the floor, which was a heavy duty laminate. It was very rigid.
The sound was definitely "different" and my opinion "better". Nothing else was changed, the speaker positions, the cables, etc all the same but it produced a different sound.
I find a lot of HiFi folk get too caught up jumping to advanced levels of optimisation and diminishing gains and totally forgetting about the basics.
Things like speaker positioning and tuning your room can make such a huge difference and usually at less cost than super fancy cables.
If there is room for improvement then it is, by definition, not good enough.
You'll need to be custom building your house then, because they are definitely built to be 'good enough' with massive room for improvement.
