[Closed] Discrimination with work holidays for those with children?

Sounds like whoever issued this edict hadn't thought it through. Is it global across the company or just for your team?

Maybe you could argue that your old system worked.

Good luck with that!

super prepared, or just no daft?.

Not daft, she is just the kind of person that books 2019's holidays in Jan 2018!

I've got my half term and summer 2020 holidays booked. Our dates are limited, so I have to make sure that I get in before the rest of them. Luckily i'm the only one with school age kids. My colleagues are booking their slots too.

However, we are digressing from the OP. Only 1 out of 9 away sounds draconian. I would have thought that 30% would be OK over a 6 week summer period with everybody covering for everyone else.

Sounds like whoever issued this edict hadn’t thought it through.

No shit, if everyone in either team wants the stereotypical 2 weeks off in Summer the first would need to start on the 22nd of April with the last team member returning on the 16th of September if they can never be off at the same time as anyone else on their team.

I find the best thing about lots of people wanting the same sort of dates off, is that the rest of the country, in fact large parts of the world want the same sort of dates off too, so it's generally when we're quiet anyway.

We have had something vaguely similar at work, a ban on people booking leave over the easter period with a knock on effect for those who hadn’t already booked leave and with childcare issues (and those who just wanted a break). The official line at present is sort out childcare yourselves employers can limit when leave is taken for a legitimate business need.

Legally? Depends on your contract. Many folk do not have the luxury of taking school holidays off in 24/7/365 day businesses. You could try arguing "custom and practice" and the change is thus a change to your conditions of employment but as an ex union rep I think it a weak case to argue. Does the business need a full or almost full team on every week? What does your union say?

One out of ten is not really enough tho is it unless you are on stat minimum holidays.

My workplace tries to prioritise parents during the summer holidays but it cannot work for everyone. Personally I take my hols outside of the main school summer holidays
IIRC only 15% of our staff can be off every week and we have to take between 20 and 30% of our annual leave every 1/4 of the year

Just because you have kids does not given you any entitlement to holidays, sorry.

We struggle as my wife works shifts with NHS, my daughter is Type 1 diabetic and the only person trained outside of wife and i, is my mother in law, who has leukemia!

So say summer holidays is 6 weeks, normally i take one week just with my daughter, and one week off with my wife and daughter and my wife has a week alone with her, my mother in law currently picks up the other three weeks. Now i cannot have a single week in the summer holidays as they'd already gone, leaving me no time off with my wife and daughter to go anywhere, and my ill mother in law, having my hyperactive daughter for four weeks as it stands...

It's not unusual for leave to be completely unavailable during holiday periods if you work in the likes of the tourism industry. Folk just have to work around it.

In this case, it seems that the leave request/booking procedure needs to be updated to cope with the change. For a start, that might mean; not allowing booking of holidays the following year; only allowing one week during the summer peak and having some sort of lottery system.

Sounds like a great way to demotivate your staff.

Time to blow the dust off the CV?

Its a difficult issue, but it sounds like your management are idiots, or are expecting some kind of Battle Royale action over holidays, which sounds miserable.
Anecdotally - In my office as I don't have children I was banned from having any time off during school holidays. It became quite apparent that this ban only relates to me and others (also without children) were able to book holidays at those times. It reached a head a few years ago when I'd applied for (in November 2015) and been granted 2 weeks at the beginning of June 2016 (to ride Tuscany Trails). When it became apparent in mid May 2016 that this was a half term I was told I had to give up that holiday. So I presented my resignation letter. I got my holiday.

Just because you have kids does not given you any entitlement to holidays, sorry.

Every employee in the UK is entitled to Holdidays, if their contract of employment doesn't stipulate when and in what circumstances then they're free to book them whenever they see fit.

Just because an employer decides on a new rule, it doesn't mean you have to follow it.

There's pluses an minuses to everything, except smokers of course, there's no upside to that, unless perhaps you're running a company pension scheme.

By imposing rules like this, over time you'll lose parents to other employers and you'll replace them with younger child-free people who are far more likely to change jobs which costs in recruitment and training, or older with older kids who are generally slow to change.

Surely if they made different holiday rules for those with children  and those without then that’s discrimination.

To be honest I can’t wait to be free of the constraints of school holidays because airlines and travel  companies definitely do discriminate against those with kids when it comes to prices .

Every employee in the UK is entitled to Holdidays, if their contract of employment doesn’t stipulate when and in what circumstances then they’re free to book them whenever they see fit.

No not quite try again.

Every employee in the UK is entitled to Holdidays, if their contract of employment doesn’t stipulate when and in what circumstances then they’re free to book them whenever they see fit.

And the employer is legally able to set rules about how many staff off at a time and other rules as they see fit so long as it still allows everyone to use their full holiday entitlement over the year.

Just because you have kids does not given you any entitlement to holidays, sorry.

Absolutely spot on.
Too many people think the world revolves round their offspring. It doesn't.

So to fulfil that criteria there will need to be one person from nine on holiday every week of the year.....

And in the team of 10 there are not enough weeks in the year for it.

Assuming 28days bookable leave for a full time employee...

My point was that those younger ones without kids are free to book holiday whenever they want, they can book cheaper flights during term time, and they can book leave 365 days of the year as they have no constraints.

If you have school age children, especially with the rules and fines of taking them out of school, you don't have the choice, you have to take the holiday in school holidays, you pay more if you go away too. I cannot leave my 8 year old daughter home alone, and i cannot bring her to work with me, i have to have the time off to take my turn to look after her.

The issue is that it hasn't been company policy since i started, it starts today....

Only 1 out of 9

It will be almost impossible for everyone to take their holiday (assuming you all get 25 days a year - that's 225 over the year and there is around 261 work days a year). It's unworkable.

Edit: Trail-rat just beat me to it LOL!

9 staff, 5 weeks each = 45 weeks ????? 52 weeks a year. so there is just enough?

And for those saying that it is tough luck if you have kids, up to now if the two members of the team that don't have kids have booked the time off first, then they got it, and i am fine with that, if they have things they need to do in school holidays and they booked the time off, i have no issue with that... the issue now is that kids or not, that each of those days in the school holidays, kids or not, only one person can be off, it is physically unworkable..

Needs relaxing a bit and rationing fairly.

Have you taken your complaint to HR yet? Union representation?

Someone is being stupid.

At a mate’s place some shit-hot super keen young manager put a block on people booking the summer holidays off to complete a project because “Who wants time off in the summer anyway, that is when all the school kids are off, right?”. Neglecting to realise that most of the people he’d just blocked had school aged kids and therefore wouldn’t be able to go away. That one soon got turned over.

Have a sensible word with your HR.

the issue now is that kids or not, that each of those days in the school holidays, kids or not, only one person can be off, it is physically unworkable..

Why?

Your employer can allocate your holidays, they can also put a !imit on the number of staff allowed off at a time. That's it pretty much in a nutshell.

Stupid rule .... How many days you are you entitled to ?

If its 5 weeks.... Are there enough working days in the year to accommodate everyone ?

Irrespective of school hols really don't see how this rule is workable.

Edit ... beaten to it by everyone lol

All workers have, from the first day of employment, the right to 5.6 weeks' paid holiday per year.

5.6 weeks is not 25 days.

Drac, i have no issue with the company restricting the time off, clearly not everyone on in the team can be off. The issue is that having 3 out of 9 off has never been an issue, we are on top of our work and we cover each other workwise.

The issue that only allowing 1 out of 9 off is just plain daft, essentially as it stands at the moment, i cannot have single day off in school holidays other than at xmas time.

So i'll be taking days to sit at home on my own....whilsy you may be a miserable loner, i like spending time with my wife and daughter.

My ill mother in law, will have to take up the slack and have my daughter 4 weeks out of 6 in the summer.

For me to get childcare for my daughter with her being T1, would mean a specialist carer at a silly day rate

It means that i now cannot take a planned summer holiday and it means that i now cannot ride Torino-Nice this year either, as my leave already booked has just been revoked!

Assuming 28days bookable leave

And

9 staff, 5 weeks each = 45 weeks

Only in practice most people get 20 +8days bh. for it their statutory 5.6 weeks. Even at 25 bookable days + 8 it still leaves 2 days in a working year where the team of 10 will all be in the office...

It's a daft level of restriction for teams of that size but certainly not discrimination.

Are your two teams abnormally large in your company (assuming the policy is company wide)
Does your company suffer with high rates of sickness?

To me unless your teams are exceptional - so the policy needs rewording to "1 in 4" or whatever - if there really is a business it should be temporary whilst they recruit more staff to cope with normal workload. Of course that happening is another thing entirely.

whilst you may be a miserable loner, i like spending time with my wife and daughter

BOOM!

@dangeourbrain - i work for a large insurers, where most team sizes are large 15 people-ish, where most of them are customer facing and on phones to customers, so predominantly young people with high rates of sickness yes.

My team deals with injury claims all over Europe, so needs to be experts in large, complex injury claims and all forms of European law, both injury, civil law and RTA, because what we do is communicate with solicitors or European insurers, 90% of our workload is email based.

So you take a week off, colleagues cover the urgent litigation and other pressing work for you and it has always worked.

as my leave already booked has just been revoked!

Revoking your previously authorised leave is not the same as restricting future application for leave. I'd be seeking reimbursement for the costs of your pre booked holiday for those dates at least, costs of child care for revoked dates and so on.

where most team sizes are large 15 people-ish

In which case their restrictions aren't legally achievable for most of the business, even at 20+8 minimum entitlement.

The issue is that having 3 out of 9 off has never been an issue, we are on top of our work and we cover each other workwise.

The issue that only allowing 1 out of 9 off is just plain daft

So speak to hr detailing that as the issue rather than misplaced accusations of discrimination or an entitlement because you have kids.

"
kilo

Subscriber

The issue is that having 3 out of 9 off has never been an issue, we are on top of our work and we cover each other workwise.

The issue that only allowing 1 out of 9 off is just plain daft

So speak to hr detailing that as the issue rather than misplaced accusations of discrimination or an entitlement because you have kids."

This.

Their new system applies to everyone equally so is not discrimination.

It may be unworkable and not required.

That's is how to argue your case.

i like spending time with my wife

Maybe drac does too. 😏

So i’ll be taking days to sit at home on my own….whilsy you may be a miserable loner, i like spending time with my wife and daughter.

Married with 2 kids thanks we rarely are all off together for a holiday as we spread them out to help with childcare and because we both work for the NHS so out holidays are restricted. Nice of you to ask.

It means that i now cannot take a planned summer holiday and it means that i now cannot ride Torino-Nice this year either, as my leave already booked has just been revoked!

Now that is a very different issue.

Also you have a bit of arguement about supporting your daughter as she has diabetes.

I feel it is discriminatory, there has to be a basic allowance to be able to take reasonable time off in school holidays? You cannot take kids out of school term time, and you cannot change the dates of the school holidays, they are set days.

As stated, you simply cannot leave your kids alone or bring them to work, there is 6 weeks in school holidays, so if 3 out of 9 people are off for the one or two weeks they want, then the holidays are easily covered.

As it stands at present, i will have either loads of leave left or i will taking it to when my daughter is at school and wife at work, so not much of a holiday?

I have done my fill of odd hours, i was a 80 hour a week chef as a lad and then a soldier away for 8 month stretches, so i've done my time and i work 50 hour weeks now...

Well you don’t get 6 weeks holiday entitlement so you are not able to book the entirety of your kids school holidays off so you have to arrange alternative care for most of the holiday anyway. This is all part of the thing about kids costing hundreds of thousands of pounds to bring up so not discrimination. My wife and I pay for holiday clubs during school holidays like many other parents and pay the holiday premium to take them away.... thou we go camping in France which is dirt cheap.

It’s a bummer but it is what it is. Some companies have compulsory shut down weeks, which is not ideal as the company I used to work for did this.

I'll say it only as nobody else has.

OP dont you have a bit of a sore throat due? feeling a bit of flu coming on? know a half decent doc to sign you off? 🙂

Not sure about a sore-throat but after email today (and it came by email, not to our faces) i may be coming down with stress....

@Drac, sorry to have a pop i am a bit p**sed off as you can probably tell! i completely sympathise with working for the NHS, my wife is a Senior Therapy Radiographer, in a team that was 12 at the start of 2018, where they have had 2 EU nationals go home, and another 2 of 20 years plus service leave as hate it now. So she used to work 7-2, now she is rarely home by 5 and is on call every second weekend (and living in rural Norfolk, being on call means being stuck at home, as we cannot guarantee mobile reception in half the county). She has pretty much had her fill now too..

I feel it is discriminatory, there has to be a basic allowance to be able to take reasonable time off in school holidays?

It's not and there isn't. Everyone is treated the same, that's not discrimination.

If you have to Care for your daughter there are specifics which relate to your legal entitlement, your employer will need to follow those specifics but be careful about what is in that can of worms before you open it.

Their policy is however wholly unworkable within the law because there aren't enough days in the year to meet the statutory requirements for holiday for the larger team, back to HR.

It's practically unworkable in your smaller teams, it's not caused an issue before. Back to HR.

What's their business case for the restriction, back to HR.

There are plenty of problems with the policy, none is discrimination.

there has to be a basic allowance to be able to take reasonable time off in school holidays?

No, there doesn't. As I've already written above, lots of folk in the tourism sector have to forego leave during the school holidays as that's when they are most required. You can argue that they probably accepted this when they took on the job/started their own business but I'm just saying that many, many folk already have to deal with this issue.

PS- they're probably being paid less than you too.

"Too many people think the world revolves round their offspring. It doesn’t."

Whereas too many of those without children tend to think the world revolves around themselves - a point amply demonstrated on this forum day in day out.

Anyways..

This is a HR issue as people leaping in to book off large chunks of holiday is certainly not in the spirit of teamwork. 9 is quite a small team and there is plenty of scope for give and take. No you can't all have 2 weeks in the summer but nobody should be able to book 'all the half terms off' etc. In any given year there needs to be a fair spread so somebody gets easter, somebody may half term etc. It seems like your HR department needs to learn their job as so many do.

It takes time to organise though.My colleague and I who both have children and can't be off at the same time spend a while sorting it all out fairly each year.

Could you have 'only one holiday at a time can be booked' added to rules. That way you stop someone calling shotgun on all the school holiday dates at once.