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Dezb
Then she starts getting bullied via Facebook
Except hardly any kids use Facebook.
That doesn't change the fact that people upload pictures of their kids to Facebook, and those kids will transfer to Facebook when they get a bit older. And if they don't Facebook will simply buy the next big thing that comes along and integrate it into Facebook. Or if something comes along which supercedes Facebook you'll have the same issues and we're still at the same point.
Or if Facebook doesn't buy the next big thing Google or Amazon will. The aim of these companies is to win as much of your time and money as possible, there's not a scrap of ethical thought behind it. And I'll caveat that by saying I still have a facebook account which I use for small e-commerce stuff but not on my phone.
Would you care if someone used lies to win an election?
politicians have been using lies to get elected for a long time before social media existed.
Facebook mined people’s data, sold that data and many people believe it altered the outcome of the US election.
... and the small matter of a recent vote a little closer to home.
Well I’m another “I’m more interested in what google do with my data” than FB TBH.
As I said, a group of scruffy surfers who message each other isn’t going to get any Political targeted messages or ads I’m afraid.. It certainly hasn’t to date and I doubt I ever will be targeted.
I do concur that heavy users of FB might be targeted, I think that’s pretty much a fair point. Yet even then it’s mild in comparison to the shitty Betting adverts that obliterate TV screens during peak hours or Piss Taking Party Political Broadcasts that lie and and make false statements to gain votes from morons.
Thankfully I’m not a moron, and have successfully filtered out the bullshite Political Parties spout.
They're not lies, it's 'alternative truth'
Unless it's on a bus. That was just a big **** off lie.
Seriously - I do care but while there are people, including some on here, that refuse to accept that we are routinely being lied to and hold people to account for those lies, then it won't change. All that's happening is that the lies are being targeted better towards those that will / want to believe them.
Way too useful to delete, use it every day. The main two groups I use are local CF gym (private group) and I'm currently dong an online handstand course (all coached via video uploads to private FB group).
theotherjonv
They’re not lies, it’s ‘alternative truth’
Seriously – I do care but while there are people, including some on here, that refuse to accept that we are routinely being lied to and hold people to account for those lies, then it won’t change. All that’s happening is that the lies are being targeted better towards those that will / want to believe them.
The context is important. The adds targeted at you, using metrics/qualifiers/data that you're not aware of, based on a profile of you and you might be completely oblivious as to what the subtext is. If you switch on the tv and watch a party political broadcast it's obvious who the party is, and who their opponent is. A targeted Facebook ad is (on the surface) impartial and the website, video or information it leads you to may well appear impartial or at least, not blatantly partisan for one side or another - it's just information.
People still don't get it, do they… it's not about what YOU post ON Facebook… it is about what you, your "friends" and their "friends" do all over the web, and in apps, and on mobile devices that have those apps installed.
There is no escape. Not posting or liking is no escape.
Anyway… I've been using Ghostery for years on laptops etc, and have finally swapped to their replacement browser on the phone. This only reduces exposure, slightly… because as I said, the behaviour of people in your network is more important than your own.
On behalf of all developers, I'd like to apologise for FB and Google being allowed to run their code on nearly all websites. It allows all companies to perform better… but it is also key to us all being were we are politically. There is a reason why the rules for political ads on TV and print are different to the rules for companies selling products and services… it's time for political web ads of all kinds to be addressed… but that's going to be tough to achieve when those who can legislate, and those that run FB and Google, have so much to lose from tighter rules and transparency.
As I said, a group of scruffy surfers who message each other isn’t going to get any Political targeted messages or ads I’m afraid
How often do you log into FB and do you remain logged in whilst doing other browsing?
If so they will have a shitload more information than you think.
Google isnt dissimilar especially search and android. For search you can do a fair amount to avoid it.
[ of course, posting on this forum from Ghostery browser is close to impossible - sigh ]
of course, posting on this forum from Ghostery browser
Ghostery have a somewhat dubious reputation.
Personally I run a few trusted sites in the main browser and used a mix of ultra locked firefox (eg noscript) and spin up a private session for those sites which dont play with noscript and shut it down.
Can still be tracked but people have to work hard for it.
Youtube and Twotter are arguably the current heavyweight purveyors of political propaganda/tribalism. It may be that us humans are doomed to repeat an endless cycle of polarised politics/scapegoating. Same old same old. The Victorian Penny Dreadfuls didn't go away, they simply evolved (sic) into tabloids and now clickbait. The algorithms of which create cycles of echo-chambers with absolutely no journalistic integrity or factchecking required.
Sidebars of shite + global internet addiction don't bode well IMO. It could be that long term we grow up and try to make sense of the evolving chaos and choose a better way. Yet, I think that's a can that gets kicked down the road with every new threat/outrage generated by Web-bound propagandists who are motivated by click-conver$ions and popularity. To paraphrase: 'A lie travels around the World before the truth can pull it's boots on'
the information that was mined/gleaned was already public as the owners of that information had put it online.
I don't believe that all the information gathered was all public. If it was, Kogan would not have been paying people to take his survey and requesting permission to harvest their data (and friend's data). He could simply have scraped all the data directly if it was public.
As soon as you start holding personal data there are very clear rules about what you can keep, how long you can keep it and what you are allowed to do with it. Passing it on to a third party for a different purpose is explicitly prohibited. I'<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">m not even sure that it matters whether the data was public or not. If you are managing the data as a Controller, you have to play by the rules.</span>
Ghostery have a somewhat dubious reputation.
You'd have to be quite special to turn on the "Ghostrank" data collection, in a plugin or browser you have specifically chosen to use to stop data collection.
is this a push back by the mainstream media and the established political machine against the rise of 'popularism'?
How often do you log into FB and do you remain logged in whilst doing other browsing?
If so they will have a shitload more information than you think
Source?
[i]those kids will transfer to Facebook when they get a bit older. [/i]
So you think people [i]grow into[/i] Facebook? Don't be daft. They have other social media outlets is why they don't use Facebook, not because they're too young.
There's so much paranoia on this thread it's almost funny.
del
is this a push back by the mainstream media and the established political machine against the rise of ‘popularism’?
No it's just people playing catch-up. This has been a major issue / is a massive issue going forward, it's just that a clearly definable and newsworthy incident has meant it can be conveyed in a more real or believable way.
Dezb
<em class="bbcode-em">those kids will transfer to Facebook when they get a bit older.
What? So you think people <em class="bbcode-em">grow into Facebook. Don’t be daft.
Or just ignore the rest of my post....if they don't migrate from Snapchat to Facebook it'll be something else. And Facebook will either buy up that something else (like the day with Whatsapp and Instagram) or they'll develop the next Facebook alternative. Or if it's not Facebook it'll be Google, or Apple and the issues will be the same. What's daft about that statement?
There’s so much paranoia on this thread it’s almost funny.
Yes, the knowledge of others may look like paranoia, if you haven't made any attempt to reduce your own ignorance about how tracking works.
I’m currently dong an online handstand course (all coached via video uploads to private FB group).
What a time to be alive!
But what is being said is that [i]everyone[/i] should #deletefacebook, because [i]everyone[/i] is being tracked (even when they're not using Facebook) and [i]everyone's[/i] data can be used ... I dunno, against them? To influence them?
It's just not true.
I've never bothered with FB because I can access the info/services/entertainment/whatever that I want/need/use elsewhere.
Ultimately I don't mind (perhaps grudgingly accept is a better term) services I use tracking or knowing things about me. I don't agree with being tracked by parties with whom I've no agreement or have any desire to use. That's creepy. If you did it in real life you'd be arrested for stalking 🙂 (slight hyperbole there)
everyone’s data can be used … I dunno, against them? To influence them?
"Everyone" ? No.
Consider how marginal many political "wins" are though…
Also, remember, that others are sharing your data, unwittingly, you don't need to be doing it yourself. And visaversa.
>I dunno, against them? To influence them?
>It’s just not true.
They can serve me all the targeted ads they like, Ad Blocker etc just filters them all out....
YGH - FB purity does it block out all the crap that people like or share ie al the 3rd party stuff?
will be keeping facebook thanks
besides I don't care they know my data, nothing of interest and I have nothing to hide. The reaction seems to be no more than paranoia. Ive yet to see a convincing argument that such data is a threat to me? I shop at wiggle ( a lot) OMG 🙂
This isn't about Deleting Facebook though, is it? It's about the abuse of personal data and the uses it can be put to. If you think people on this thread are being paranoid then I recommend you do some research into how big data and machine learning can and is being used in this area.
Let's just say that CA was able to provide a way to know a relative you cared very much about had a terminal disease, and based on that an ad or post or somesuch was targeted at just you -or a very small demographic- saying 'xxxx promises to increase research funding for xxxx Vote for xxxxx' would you think that is ethical or abusive of the voting system?
If you think we don't have the technology to do this you need to think again, this isn't paranoid it's just the way it is. The actual scary side of this is it costs lots of money to run this level of service even in the cloud, and the kid of poeple who can afford to do this are the very people you don't want manipulating elections for their own gains.
They can serve me all the targeted ads they like, ******* etc just filters them all out….
Your life isn't lived in isolation. This thread isn't really about successful marketing of products and services, or how you can opt out of that, it is about changing our society and politics, using modern tools, while avoiding transparency.
[i]kelvin wrote:[/i]
[ of course, posting on this forum from Ghostery browser is close to impossible – sigh ]
I'm tempted to suggest that's deliberate (given policy and rules on freeloading - many of the posts on this thread theoretically break the forum rules), but Hanlon's Razor!
Dezb
But what is being said is that <em class="bbcode-em">everyone should #deletefacebook, because <em class="bbcode-em">everyone is being tracked (even when they’re not using Facebook) and <em class="bbcode-em">everyone’s data can be used … I dunno, against them? To influence them?
It’s just not true.
Dez, you're obviously more intelligent than the majority of Facebook users and you're obviously impervious to any form of marketing, trickery or influence but it's a platform used by anything from 1.4 - 2.2 billion people, many of who use it as their primary source of news.
Imagine you are a young black male in a state that has been identified as a swing state prior to the US election. Because of your ethnicity and zip code you've been determined to be unlikely to vote Trump, but there's a chance you'll vote Clinton. Facebook targets you (based on age, ethnicity and location) with material tailored to you, designed to undermine your confidence in Clinton and dissuade you from voting. You don't know who is targeting you or why. The website / rabbit hole you are going down could simply be about men's issues, sport, black culture, whatever, but the subtext is to assure you voting is pointless. Or it could just be complete and utter rampant lies and fabrication but we'll never know because Facebook isn't telling.
Contrast the effectiveness of that delivery method with Donald Trump himself addressing young black men and telling them not to vote. Would they be likely to obey Trump if he asked them not to vote for Clinton? Would they smell a rat if Vladimir Putin gave a press conference addressed to young black men in that specific state telling them not to vote for Clinton?
This isn't "so much paranoia" as you put it, this is what actually happened. The man with his finger on the nuclear button may well be where he is because of targeted Facebook ads, paid for in rubles.
It’s astonishing how many people can’t/won’t/don’t see beyond the end of their own nose. At the risk of invoking Godwin’s Law, I’ll quote the führer: “What luck for rulers that men do not think.”
As I said, a group of scruffy surfers who message each other isn’t going to get any Political targeted messages or ads I’m afraid.. It certainly hasn’t to date and I doubt I ever will be targeted.
That's the whole point of this kind of algorithm-based profiling - it works out who not to bother targeting with stuff as well as who to actually target.
martinhutch
As I said, a group of scruffy surfers who message each other isn’t going to get any Political targeted messages or ads I’m afraid.. It certainly hasn’t to date and I doubt I ever will be targeted.
That’s the whole point of this kind of algorithm-based profiling – it works out who not to bother targeting with stuff as well as who to actually target.
Or they never know their being targeted. The website or blog they subscribe to about marine pollution actually has a political agenda designed to persuade or dissuade them very subtley.
@Dezb and others in the 'why should I care' camp.
It doesn't matter if you're impervious to influence, or have a FB account or not, but it certainly matters if a large proportion of the people you interact with on a daily basis can and are influenced and manipulated by such platforms.
[i]Consider how marginal many political “wins” are though…[/i]
Ah see, now we're making the blinkered one (me) think!
So the idea of #deletefacebook isn't to stop them mining my data, but to make them suffer for their influence in the political world. I've been affected by this because those who have been influenced have managed to vote in .. well Trump.
Thing is, will enough people dump Facebook? Too many are dependant on it for their "friendships", their social "interaction" - even I am reluctant to drop it for the small amount of info I glean, so what about the actual full-on users (those probably more likely to be influenced)? Will they?
Glad I came back to the thread anyway.
[edit - post I was replying to has been removed/moved/edited, or something]
This isn't about the (public) arguments made in and by campaigns, but stealth opaque ads that avoided all existing rules on funding, accuracy and use of data.
Thought it may be my post Kelvin, it vanished (for me) when i edited.
So in summary.
None of this is new, it's a 21st century method version 1st century practice.
Should i/we be surprised. No.
Should the practice be changed. Yes.
Is the method to blame. No.
Given this has (imho) largely grown out of the other two it's difficult not to reference/talk about them. Mea culpa.
> , it is about changing our society and politics, using modern tools, while avoiding transparency.
Is there any evidence they did effect any significant change? I don't doubt they have loads of data, but how effective that really was is still TBD.
Just because they boast they can swing an election doesn't mean they actually can....
I think it was pulled from YouTube, once the story started to blow up, but about a year ago there was a video online where Nix was explaining at a conference exactly how Analytica targeted individual voters and delivered different (and potentially contradictory) political ads to different people.
The contradictory advertising/campaigning is nothing new though, see promising tax cuts and more spending simultaneously.
.....and I’m currently dong an online handstand course
😂 Liked and Shared.
The contradictory advertising/campaigning is nothing new though
In the past though it was in the paper or tv. So if they gave contradictory messages I saw both and think lying sods and vote for someone else.
Targeted advertising on social media is different. Since they can look at you and decide you would be in favour of tax cuts based on their demographic info and so show you an ad promising that. However they can then look at me and display an ad promising no tax cuts based on my data. You dont see my ad and I dont see your ad so they dont appear to contradict themselves.
Both of us think what splendid chaps they are and vote for them.
Both of us think what splendid chaps they are
I think that unlikely 😉
The thing is you put the adds that said tax cuts in the ft and the ones that said double your benefits and more for the NHS in the star, you never saw both.
On telly you ran with a middle ground (which is why tv and radio is largely "but you said" not "I say" as everyone firmly tries to say nothing at all) or peddled one thing on bbc and another on ITV back in the day when posh people wouldn't watch commercial tv.
You sent activists round to sink estates to discuss one thing and to Mayfair to talk about others.
The issue here is that more and more people choose, quite deliberately, to live in an echo chamber, what propaganda they're served is by and large, served them by choice. Of the outliers i know most of them would stop buying the guardian if it said "Slash public services" and the others wouldn't buy the mail again if it said "vote Corbyn, open our borders".
Swingers (ooo-er) are of course going to be targeted by both sides so will see misinformation (actually more likely to be correct as you'd point out things the other candidate said they "will" do your target isn't likely to like as well as made up stuff.) From both sides [likely produced by the same company].
Online handstand course? Looks risky.
>Targeted advertising on social media is different. Since they can look at you and decide you would be in favour of tax cuts based on their demographic info and so show you an ad promising that. However they can then look at me and display an ad promising no tax cuts based on my data. You dont see my ad and I dont see your ad so they dont appear to contradict themselves.
This isn't that different from canvassing in person. They listen to what you say and then try a line they think will work on you.
In the past though it was in the paper or tv. So if they gave contradictory messages I saw both and think lying sods and vote for someone else.
Targeted advertising on social media is different. Since they can look at you and decide you would be in favour of tax cuts based on their demographic info and so show you an ad promising that. However they can then look at me and display an ad promising no tax cuts based on my data. You dont see my ad and I dont see your ad so they dont appear to contradict themselves.
Both of us think what splendid chaps they are and vote for them.
Exactly what I was going to post, every living in their own personal echo chamber is not healthy and can be easily manipulated.